Thailand Tax on Expat Pensions 2024

[Mike Lister]

26 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Why are you all going over the same old stuff over and over again? Why can't you all just wait until some official announcement is made on this subject, if it ever comes that is?

 

All you are doing stressing yourselves up by speculating on this matter when none of you have any solid evidence as to what will, or will not happen in the future. 

 

And I'm going to repeat, yet again, the paragraph from the Thai Enquirer, dated Sept 18th 2023:

 

'The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

Now for heaven's sake give it a bloody rest!

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

All of the announcements have already been made, everyone else has moved on. Those announcements about the changes to the tax rules having already been made, most everyone else is simply waiting for the end of the year when it comes time to file tax returns. The expectation that there will suddenly be a a big announcement, is not even remotely valid. 

 

That broad brush statement quoted from the Thai Enquirer last September means nothing. It was made prior to an important amendment to the tax rules in November last year and doesn't agree with any DTA from any country. It is therefore merely a throw away line that was made by an English language news paper that comes from an unknown source.

[Sheryl]

45 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

 

It seems to me, at first glance, that Immigration puts all the effort on us, as foreigners, to prove that we comply with their rules.  So would it be difficult for them to just say "Hey, prove you paid your taxes if you want a visa renewal"?

 

......... To prove my income, I have to go to banks and get a letter issued by the bank.  So is it that big a stretch to think they might do the same with tax compliance?

 

 

The difference, and it is a big one, is that the tax thing is NOT an Immigration Dept rule.  The bank letters, proof of income, are. And are required per Immigration Police Order. No such requirement for tax clearance for people on retirement extension.

 

Why should the Immigration Dept take on the Revenue Dept's job on a matter that does not concern Imm and is not covered in any IMM police order?

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

This as well as anything else about the new interpretation is only guesswork until the final paper is put out on the subject.  Any comments by experts, even TRD folks is speculation based on the latest meeting of those folks making the decisions.  Good luck

yeah there was also on this forum of a meeting of a TRD official and the ambassador of Switzerland - he did make the statement that the DTA exemptions would be valid but he also mentioned that all documents needed by the tax resident also had to be in English or an official translation.  In other words if the local law is written in Thai then the Thais will determine what it is translated to.   I am not sure of the date of this meeting was held and as other "experts" have made some statements that later come out different as those at the official meetings to decide this interpretation have said that there are always

differences of opinion on what they should or should not do.  Therefore, nothing we have suggesed, sworn by, opined by, rumored by mean absolutely NOTHING until the final word comes out and then if there is enough clamoring among those affected by any part of the new interpretation, it might even be changed as TIT.  never forget that and just relax and try not to imagine what they will come out with.

[Sheryl]

Reverting to a statement in the OP:

 

It is not the case that "the DTA between Thailand and the UK (I'm UK citizen) will only be applied to pension income arising from Police, Military and Civil Service pensions. "

 

This and all other  DTAs will be fully honoured.

 

What is thew case, is that under the UK-Thai DTA.  only government pensions (police, military, civil service) are exempt from Thai taxation and state pensions (inc. the old age pension) are not so exempt.

 

So in  treating state pensions as assessable income the Thai tax authority would actually be  applying the terms of the DTA.

 

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

3 hours ago, connda said:

Actually, the amount of time and man-hours needed to check all the foreign expats will end up costing them more then they will ever make in additional revenues. 

Cost won't matter for a government run institution such as the RD...

[Presnock]

Well if nothing else, the tax agents here and elsewhere that are aware of this proposed interpretation of the Thai tax law must be chomping at the bit to welcome all the prospective NEW clients who will become Thai tax residents this year.  I have seen different presentations, many speakers saying that they have sat in on some of the discussions by those proposing the changes and yet they each have different takes on what might or might not occur as it is apparent that not everyone involve in the decisions of the changes concurs with ALL the interpretations.  SO as so many have advised many times, relax, and also remember it may not affect hardly any of us or it might affect all of us.  We can only hope that something definite will come out prior to the end of June.  Good luck to all, enjoy this lovely place.

[connda]

4 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

As many suspect may be the case, it's possible that foreigners may have to produce a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time.  No chasing at all.  It makes the foreigner contact the RD.  

 

I think it will all be a big mess, but the Thai government will make rules up on the fly to still turn a baht out of it. 

 

Money Number One in Thailand, and no free passes for farang, including retirees. 

Not worrying about it unless it happens. 

[connda]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

So you just switch to multi entry non o, or lie on the forms they have no way of checking.

Just use your home-country's bank debit card and they have no way of checking. 

[connda]

3 hours ago, QuantumQuandry said:

I am aware.  I must not have been clear in my post.  Let me phrase it differently.  With either method, the onus is on you to prove that you have what is needed.  For example, if you are using the income method, you have to go to the bank and get a letter from the bank.  You have to present it to immigration.

 

Why worry about things that haven't even happened.  Worry about it next year IF it happens.  Then just add it as another PITA thing to do in order to get your extension.  Until then?  Pfft.  🙄

[Mike Lister]

27 minutes ago, connda said:

Just use your home-country's bank debit card and they have no way of checking. 

There are simple ways to check since the Mastercard and Visa networks report all transactions on their networks to the BOT, not that represents a significant risk to most individuals. The key point however is, I wonder how much money people are prepared to waste, trying to avoid small amounts of tax. The combined effect of ATM charges and poor exchange rates, repeated several times each month because of transaction limits, probably means that the foreign account ATM route is the more expensive option, although I haven't done the math.

[BritManToo]

10 minutes ago, connda said:

Just use your home-country's bank debit card and they have no way of checking. 

Unfortunately our home countries banks cancel our accounts if we appear to be living in a foreign country.

[rocketboy2]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Unfortunately our home countries banks cancel our accounts if we appear to be living in a foreign country.

 Not if you bank in the isle of man or the channel islands.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

So you just switch to multi entry non o,

How does that get around being in Thailand for more than 180 days, thus, a resident for tax purposes? 

 

Someone using tourist visas can rack up more than 180 days, and become a resident for tax purposes. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Raindancer said:

I think that this rumour/ gossip of immigration requiring documentary evidence of income/ tax paid, is just non substantiated and is scaremongering.

In my opinion, it's more than rumor / gossip, it makes sense for the Thai government to implement it, therefore, it's a very real possibility. 

 

Please don't call it scaremongering and report every post mentioning it.  If you feel that way, just don't read the posts discussing it. 

 

It's something that should be discussed, and expats be prepared for.  If it doesn't happen, great.  If it does happen, at least we've had discussion about strategies that expats can put in place well in advance, rather than after the fact, because the minority of members shut down discussion on it because they have labeled it scaremongering.  

 

We already need certain documents at extension time.  It's nothing for the Thai government to add one more document to the list. 

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

In my opinion, it's more than rumor / gossip, it makes sense for the Thai government to implement it, therefore, it's a very real possibility. 

 

Please don't call it scaremongering and report every post mentioning it.  If you feel that way, just don't read the posts discussing it. 

 

It's something that should be discussed, and expats be prepared for.  If it doesn't happen, great.  If it does happen, at least we've had discussion about strategies that expats can put in place well in advance, rather than after the fact, because the minority of members shut down discussion on it because they have labeled it scaremongering.  

 

We already need certain documents at extension time.  It's nothing for the Thai government to add one more document to the list. 

We've already been round this loop several times, there's no reason to believe that tax clearance certificates will be required across the board, even if some people see it as a logical step. There has not been any official  announcement from any quarter, saying they are being considered, hence discussing them now is upsetting for some people and is considered to be scaremongering.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

They could just force you to produce official documents that you are cleared, couldn't they? 

 

They already make you prove your income.  So not sure why they couldn't make you prove your tax clearance, as well.

Well said, and I agree 100%. 

 

Members seem to think there will be some type of big "investigation" of the masses.  The RD will carefully look over bank statements, pension papers, deposits, DTA's etc etc etc etc.  I don't see that happening. 

 

Have members considered that maybe this policy working effectively is not why it was actually implemented? 

 

Is it possible this policy, being such a mess and unworkable, was solely designed to be like getting a Certificate of Residence.  They are supposed to be free, but most of us pay 300 baht for one. 

 

It may be the case all you produce to the RD is a bank statement, which isn't even really looked at, pay your 300 baht or 500 baht, or whatever, you get your Tax Clearance Certificate, and you are good for immigration and an extension.  That "fee" may be actual, and another revenue stream for government, or "tea money." 

 

They might have a closer look at some foreigners getting around in a Ferrari and living in a penthouse, but for retirees it might just be a small fee or some "tea money" to the RD and off you go.  

 

We have all lived in Thailand long enough to know how things work here, especially for farang. 

[swissbie]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

The difference, and it is a big one, is that the tax thing is NOT an Immigration Dept rule.  The bank letters, proof of income, are. And are required per Immigration Police Order. No such requirement for tax clearance for people on retirement extension.

 

Why should the Immigration Dept take on the Revenue Dept's job on a matter that does not concern Imm and is not covered in any IMM police order?

Yes, it's not, but can easily be done. I remember, that i had to make tax clearances in the 80ies when staying in Thailand more than 180 days a year. This was enforced and you would have gotten troubles leaving the country without a tax clearance.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Well said, and I agree 100%. 

 

Members seem to think there will be some type of big "investigation" of the masses.  The RD will carefully look over bank statements, pension papers, deposits, DTA's etc etc etc etc.  I don't see that happening. 

 

Have members considered that maybe this policy working effectively is not why it was actually implemented? 

 

Is it possible this policy, being such a mess and unworkable, was solely designed to be like getting a Certificate of Residence.  They are supposed to be free, but most of us pay 300 baht for one. 

 

It may be the case all you produce to the RD is a bank statement, which isn't even really looked at, pay your 300 baht or 500 baht, or whatever, you get your Tax Clearance Certificate, and you are good for immigration and an extension.  That "fee" may be actual, and another revenue stream for government, or "tea money." 

 

They might have a closer look at some foreigners getting around in a Ferrari and living in a penthouse, but for retirees it might just be a small fee or some "tea money" to the RD and off you go.  

 

We have all lived in Thailand long enough to know how things work here, especially for farang. 

Unsubstantiated crystal ball gazing and whatifery, anyway, you're on California I believe.

 

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

We've already been round this loop several times, there's no reason to believe that tax clearance certificates will be required across the board, even if some people see it as a logical step. There has not been any official  announcement from any quarter, saying they are being considered, hence discussing them now is upsetting for some people and is considered to be scaremongering.

I have addressed this in another post that I was typing when you replied.  It may not be as "scary" as some are thinking. 

 

Interesting how over in the cannabis forum they are discussing, at great length, what the government MAY do to the industry by way of FUTURE legislation.  yet on this tax subject, very little latitude is given.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have addressed this in another post that I was typing when you replied.  It may not be as "scary" as some are thinking. 

 

Interesting how over in the cannabis forum they are discussing, at great length, what the government MAY do to the industry by way of FUTURE legislation.  yet on this tax subject, very little latitude is given.

Tax threads are mostly of a factual nature, the implications of the subject can have far reaching impact on the lives of older more vulnerable pensioners. We need to be a little sensitive to that.

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Unsubstantiated crystal ball gazing and whatifery, anyway, you're on California I believe.

 

This tax policy is such a mess that we can expect changes in the future.  I think we all know this. There's already been discussion on what the Thai government will have to change for this policy to even have the slightest chance of being even the least bit effective.  A lot of that discussion was "unsubstantiated crystal ball gazing and whatifery" but still needed to be discussed. 

 

What does "on California" mean? 

Edited May 21 by KhunHeineken

[Mike Lister]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

This tax policy is such a mess that we can expect changes in the future.  I think we all know this. There's already been discussion on what the Thai government will have to change for this policy to even have the slightest chance of being even the least bit effective.  

 

What does "on California" mean? 

Sorry, in California 

[Yumthai]

4 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

As many suspect may be the case, it's possible that foreigners may have to produce a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time.  No chasing at all.  It makes the foreigner contact the RD.

I think, as many others, that implementing a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time will cause more financial damage from people fleeing Thailand than the extra money the Thai economy will get from both the law abiding foreigners and the agents providing "easy" certificates.       

[topt]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

If it does happen, at least we've had discussion about strategies that expats can put in place well in advance, rather than after the fact,

So what strategies are they going to be that haven't already been mentioned - like not staying here for more than 180 days in a calendar year?

 

Since you won't know until it is announced, or you are asked for it, your only option would be to get one so are you suggesting that everyone goes out and submits a tax return just in case......

 

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sorry, in California 

I'm using a VPN for privacy reasons, for the very reason you had a look at where I am posting from. 

 

I'm in Pattaya, if you would like to know. 

 

It appears expats living in Pattaya don't "scare" as easy as others here. 

 

I don't even smoke cannabis, but all that "unsubstantiated crystal ball gazing and whatifery" over in the cannabis forum about how smokers may need a doctors certificate in the future very well may be scaremongering. 

Edited May 21 by KhunHeineken

[topt]

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Is it possible this policy, being such a mess and unworkable, was solely designed to be like getting a Certificate of Residence.  They are supposed to be free, but most of us pay 300 baht for one. 

Just because in Pattaya we pay 300 baht does not mean every IO charges it. My understanding is for many non tourist places it is actually free - as it is supposed to be........

 

22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

We have all lived in Thailand long enough to know how things work here, especially for farang. 

You really do come out with some flights of fancy - perhaps you should write a novel............

[metisdead]

A post with a trolling music video has been removed.

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I think, as many others, that implementing a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time will cause more financial damage from people fleeing Thailand than the extra money the Thai economy will get from both the law abiding foreigners and the agents providing "easy" certificates.       

Like I said, it just all may be a "tea money" scheme like the Certificate of Residence. 

 

The policy is such a mess it can't work in it's current form, but maybe it's designed that way so you just pay some "tea money" for your clearance certificate and you're on your way. 

 

No reams of photocopies of photocopies etc etc.  Just maybe a bank statement that's not even looked at, some "tea money" and here's your stamped certificate for immigration. 

 

Members suggesting this scares them are being thin skinned. 

 

Immigration, and agents, have been doing it for decades.  Maybe all this policy is about is another "tea money" revenue scheme, but for the RD, with the ability they can have a look at some individuals that are high wealth, or criminals. 

 

We may be reading too much into this policy and taking it too seriously. 

 

That said, I see nothing wrong with considering worse case scenario, and preparing for it, but that's just me.  Some may see discussing worse case scenario as scaremongering. 

[KhunHeineken]

33 minutes ago, topt said:

So what strategies are they going to be that haven't already been mentioned - like not staying here for more than 180 days in a calendar year?

 

Since you won't know until it is announced, or you are asked for it, your only option would be to get one so are you suggesting that everyone goes out and submits a tax return just in case......

 

No.  I am suggesting members research how to get one, where to get one, how long it takes to get one etc etc etc etc to prepare for the possibility one may be needed.  That's all.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  

 

In my opinion, such discussion would be beneficial to members, and if one is not needed in the future, then great.

Edited May 21 by KhunHeineken

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Like I said, it just all may be a "tea money" scheme like the Certificate of Residence. 

 

The policy is such a mess it can't work in it's current form, but maybe it's designed that way so you just pay some "tea money" for your clearance certificate and you're on your way. 

 

No reams of photocopies of photocopies etc etc.  Just maybe a bank statement that's not even looked at, some "tea money" and here's your stamped certificate for immigration. 

 

Members suggesting this scares them are being thin skinned. 

 

Immigration, and agents, have been doing it for decades.  Maybe all this policy is about is another "tea money" revenue scheme, but for the RD, with the ability they can have a look at some individuals that are high wealth, or criminals. 

 

We may be reading too much into this policy and taking it too seriously. 

 

That said, I see nothing wrong with considering worse case scenario, and preparing for it, but that's just me.  Some may see discussing worse case scenario as scaremongering. 

You've been told by other members they think it's scaremongering and you've been told by me:

 

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