Ireland, Norway, & Spain to Recognize Palestinian State Amid Ongoing Israel-Hamas Conflict

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/24/2024 at 12:24 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

By all means ignore Israel’s progressing isolation from former supportive nations, it is an isolation that is nevertheless still progressing.

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Here we go again, you assume to much, first the "we' thingy now the "ignore" thingy. 

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/24/2024 at 12:23 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

‘‘Palestinians’?

I believe the attackers have been identified as members of a particular organization.

 

So can you be a bit more specific who it is you are referring to, or is that a problem for you?

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Well it was actually Hamas and several other Palestinian militant groups launched coordinated armed incursions from the from the Gaza Strip into the Gaza envelope of southern Israel, the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

 

Including normal Gaza civilians, ie Palestinians 

[placeholder]

  On 5/24/2024 at 9:21 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Your avoiding the question, you made a claim.

 

 

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You think Israel went along for sightseeing? It was there for security. To make sure the money got to where it was meant to be going.

 "For years, Israeli intelligence officers even escorted a Qatari official into Gaza, where he doled out money from suitcases filled with millions of dollars."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

And you totally ignore the fact that Israel could have taken measures to stop these payments. And other monies laundered into Gaza. It chose not to.

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/24/2024 at 1:59 PM, placeholder said:

You think Israel went along for sightseeing? It was there for security. To make sure the money got to where it was meant to be going.

 "For years, Israeli intelligence officers even escorted a Qatari official into Gaza, where he doled out money from suitcases filled with millions of dollars."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

And you totally ignore the fact that Israel could have taken measures to stop these payments. And other monies laundered into Gaza. It chose not to.

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Your claim:

"Hamas needed that propping because it had become so unpopular in Gaza."

 

When you get a link to back up that claim get back to me

[placeholder]

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  On 5/24/2024 at 2:08 PM, Bkk Brian said:

Your claim:

"Hamas needed that propping because it had become so unpopular in Gaza."

 

When you get a link to back up that claim get back to me

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I'm shocked, shocked that you forgot about this. Here  you go:

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas
Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That

Asked to identify the amount of trust they had in the Hamas authorities, a plurality of respondents (44 percent) said they had no trust at all; “not a lot of trust” was the second most common response, at 23 percent. Only 29 percent of Gazans expressed either “a great deal” or “quite a lot” of trust in their government. Furthermore, 72 percent said there was a large (34 percent) or medium (38 percent) amount of corruption in government institutions, and a minority thought the government was taking meaningful steps to address the problem.

https://archive.ph/LbaMm

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:19 AM, placeholder said:

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I'm shocked, shocked that you forgot about this. Here  you go:

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas
Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That

Asked to identify the amount of trust they had in the Hamas authorities, a plurality of respondents (44 percent) said they had no trust at all; “not a lot of trust” was the second most common response, at 23 percent. Only 29 percent of Gazans expressed either “a great deal” or “quite a lot” of trust in their government. Furthermore, 72 percent said there was a large (34 percent) or medium (38 percent) amount of corruption in government institutions, and a minority thought the government was taking meaningful steps to address the problem.

https://archive.ph/LbaMm

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

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I would be shocked if that was relevant but its not, far from it. That's a poll taken a few days before Oct 7th

 

Again your claim:

 

"Hamas needed that propping because it had become so unpopular in Gaza."

 

 

My reply to that claim:

 

 

Get back to me when you have a link to that claim

 

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:32 AM, Bkk Brian said:

I would be shocked if that was relevant but its not, far from it. That's a poll taken a few days before Oct 7th

 

Again your claim:

 

"Hamas needed that propping because it had become so unpopular in Gaza."

 

 

My reply to that claim:

 

 

Get back to me when you have a link to that claim

 

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What nonsense. Netanhahu said that the reason to support Hamas was as a counter to the PA.

"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

What does "propping up" mean to you?

 

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:37 AM, placeholder said:

What nonsense. Netanhahu said that the reason to support Hamas was as a counter to the PA.

"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

What does "propping up" mean to you?

 

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You made a claim, I asked for a link to back up your claim, you can't provide it. That's not nonsense its a fact.

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:40 AM, Bkk Brian said:

You made a claim, I asked for a link to back up your claim, you can't provide it. That's not nonsense its a fact.

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I have provided a link that shows Hamas was unpopular.

Another that shows that the Israeli goal was to prop up the Hamas regime. 

Tell me how to construe these in any other way but as I have done?

Just the fact that Israel was propping up Hamas alone should tell a rational person enough. What do you think propping up means in this context? Why would a government need propping up?

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:44 AM, placeholder said:

I have provided a link that shows Hamas was unpopular.

Another that shows that the Israeli goal was to prop up the Hamas regime. 

Tell me how to construe these in any other way but as I have done?

Just the fact that Israel was propping up Hamas alone should tell a rational person enough. What do you think propping up means in this context? Why would a government need propping up?

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Why are you finding it so difficult to admit you can't back your claim up?

 

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:45 AM, Bkk Brian said:

Why are you finding it so difficult to admit you can't back your claim up?

 

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Any rational person would say that I have provided that link. Any rational person would understand why a governing party needed propping up. But if you have an alternate explanation of why a governing party needed propping up that doesn't have to do with its support among its citizens, please share it with us.

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:47 AM, placeholder said:

Any rational person would say that I have provided that link. Any rational person would understand why a governing party needed propping up. But if you have an alternate explanation of why a governing party needed propping up that doesn't have to do with its support among its citizens, please share it with us.

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I can see the personal insults beginning to creep in, what makes you think I am not being rational (twice)

 

So no link to claims ok

[CG1 Blue]

  On 5/24/2024 at 12:23 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

‘‘Palestinians’?

I believe the attackers have been identified as members of a particular organization.

 

So can you be a bit more specific who it is you are referring to, or is that a problem for you?

 

 

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Hamas are Palestinians. It's perfectly reasonable to call the Oct 7th attackers Palestinians. 

Ireland, Spain and Norway clearly agree, given that they have recognised Palestine as a state while Hamas are in charge. 

[Chomper Higgot]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:27 AM, CG1 Blue said:

Hamas are Palestinians. It's perfectly reasonable to call the Oct 7th attackers Palestinians. 

Ireland, Spain and Norway clearly agree, given that they have recognised Palestine as a state while Hamas are in charge. 

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I’m sure you aren’t responsible and would not accept being held responsible for heinous crimes committed by people who share your nationality.

 

 

 

 

[Wobblybob]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:38 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m sure you aren’t responsible and would not accept being held responsible for heinous crimes committed by people who share your nationality.

 

 

 

 

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There again he is probably not a Palestian that's been indoctrinated.

[Chomper Higgot]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:44 AM, Wobblybob said:

There again he is probably not a Palestian that's been indoctrinated.

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Have figured it out yet,  making ignorant and gross generalizations isn’t helping whatever argument you think you have?!

[Wobblybob]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:46 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Have figured it out yet,  making ignorant and gross generalizations isn’t helping whatever argument you think you have?!

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Your naivety is kinda sweet.

[Chomper Higgot]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:47 AM, Wobblybob said:

Your naivety is kinda sweet.

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Your gross pejorative generalizations against a whole population of millions is kind of bigoted.

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 7:52 AM, Bkk Brian said:

I can see the personal insults beginning to creep in, what makes you think I am not being rational (twice)

 

So no link to claims ok

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Over and over again, you merely assert that the links don't lead to valid evidence. But you never offer any analysis of why the evidence is invalid. Anybody can claim "So no link to claim" in response to any  evidence introduce by someone on any topic whatsoever.. In other words, you've got nothing.

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:27 AM, CG1 Blue said:

Hamas are Palestinians. It's perfectly reasonable to call the Oct 7th attackers Palestinians. 

Ireland, Spain and Norway clearly agree, given that they have recognised Palestine as a state while Hamas are in charge. 

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This is like saying that the IDF is composed of Jews. Therefore, it's Jews who are invading Gaza. It may be true in a limited sense, but it says nothing relevant about Jews in general. Just as your comment just nothing relevant about Palestinians in general.

[Wobblybob]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:49 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Your gross pejorative generalizations against a whole population of millions is kind of bigoted.

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I'm sure the terrorists will be grateful of your support. Last time of checking over 80% of the Palestinians were resolutely behind Hamas and it indeed went higher after 7/10!

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:49 AM, placeholder said:

Over and over again, you merely assert that the links don't lead to valid evidence. But you never offer any analysis of why the evidence is invalid. Anybody can claim "So no link to claim" in response to any  evidence introduce by someone on any topic whatsoever.. In other words, you've got nothing.

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In other words, you've got nothing.

 

Correct, you supplied no link.....

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:57 AM, Bkk Brian said:

In other words, you've got nothing.

 

Correct, you supplied no link.....

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More of the same refusal to address the evidence.

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 9:03 AM, placeholder said:

More of the same refusal to address the evidence.

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If you have no link to your claims then you are the one with no evidence. Its pretty simple

 

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 9:05 AM, Bkk Brian said:

If you have no link to your claims then you are the one with no evidence. Its pretty simple

 

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More of the same refusal to address the evidence provided by the links.

[cdnvic]

Please discuss the topic without insulting each other. 

[Bkk Brian]

  On 5/25/2024 at 9:27 AM, placeholder said:

More of the same refusal to address the evidence provided by the links.

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Dishonest deflection. No link to specific claim that you made was provided, this forum rule is at the top of world news. 

 

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

[placeholder]

  On 5/25/2024 at 8:54 AM, Wobblybob said:

I'm sure the terrorists will be grateful of your support. Last time of checking over 80% of the Palestinians were resolutely behind Hamas and it indeed went higher after 7/10!

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Last time you checked what exactly? Your imagination? Stop making things up.

[Bkk Brian]

Some feedback from other countries. 

 

France’s foreign minister said Wednesday that officially recognizing the Palestinian state is not a taboo, but any such decision must come at the right time.

“This is not just a symbolic issue or a question of political positioning, but a diplomatic tool in the service of the solution of two states living side by side in peace and security,” Stephane Sejourne said in a statement.

Germany echoed such a sentiment, saying that a two-state solution is the ultimate goal but it must be born out of dialogue.

“An independent Palestinian state remains a firm goal of German foreign policy,” a German foreign ministry spokesperson told a regular news conference in Berlin, adding that a dialogue process was needed for that goal.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/move-by-norway-ireland-spain-to-recognize-palestinian-state-gets-mixed-global-response/

[Wobblybob]

  On 5/25/2024 at 2:02 PM, placeholder said:

Last time you checked what exactly? Your imagination? Stop making things up.

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I don't converse with posters that try to derail threads and refuse to give links to their lies. Bye!