Poll/Survey: Expat Tax Residency Status

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Your last statement is incorrect, they do not tax "money already here in the bank", they only tax interest that has been "earned".

It is a common practice in other countries to apply withholding tax where tax residency is in doubt. As already pointed out you are free to file a tax return and claim any over payment back.

I had to verify my tax residency before I could open an interest bearing account with Wise, maybe you would prefer that arrangement.

 

It's your first paragraph above that's incorrect. Please read the 2nd and 3rd sentences of my post which you quoted. Those exact words...earned interest...were already stated. Here, I'll make it easy and do it for you...

 

On 5/28/2024 at 6:19 AM, Skeptic7 said:

Thais do not have tax on earned interest automatically withheld from their bank accounts. We foreigners now do...and this just started automatically (on us only), regardless of amount earned, a few years back.

In the closing statement of my post, since it had already been established that it was earned interest income  to which was being referred...didn't feel the need for extraneous redundancy. Guess I was wrong about that.

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

In the closing statement of my post, since it had already been established that it was earned interest income  to which was being referred...didn't feel the need for extraneous redundancy. Guess I was wrong about that.

Yes you were wrong, you changed the context to the concerns of someone else.

Your words or not.

"Furthermore...my response was to the statement that the poster was concerned Thailand would start taxing money already here in the bank. They already do. "

[Skeptic7]

38 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Yes you were wrong, you changed the context to the concerns of someone else.

Your words or not.

"Furthermore...my response was to the statement that the poster was concerned Thailand would start taxing money already here in the bank. They already do. "

Nope. But keep telling yourself that if it makes ya feel better. 

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Nope. But keep telling yourself that if it makes ya feel better. 

Obviously context is an alien concept.

[KhunHeineken]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:51 PM, Mike Lister said:

Most countries have to report deposits above a certain level, especially cash deposits. Those are money laundering laws, not tax based laws. 

 

Whilst the main interest in these deposits are for criminal behavior, the details are passed onto the tax departments of various countries also.  Think Al Capone.  Very famous case. 

 

On 5/28/2024 at 8:51 PM, Mike Lister said:

If you would have read the tax guide that I wrote, you would have seen para 99 which reads thusly:

 

99) "It cannot be entirely ruled out that at some point, a link may be established between tax filings and visa extensions. A law already exists that requires foreigners to apply for Tax Clearance Certificates before being allowed to depart the country. The rule is not being enforced currently for a majority of visa types but it is in operation for some. These things are possible because similar things have been adopted in several countries in the past, including the US". 

 

I acknowledged the possibility that could happen in the future, but since it has never been mentioned in an official context, I haven't felt the need to mention it since. Many people are too focussed on what steps must be taken to make the tax rules work and haven't considered that very possibly, nothing much will be done at all. The Thai approach to rule enforcement is to allow organic growth over time. This may seem counter intuitive to Westerners who come from societes where efficiency and effectiveness have become art forms, but the pace of change here is very slow and we've seen this repeatedly. Coordination between government departments is also not great. If one department wants to implement change that requires the active cooperation of another department, nothing will happen quickly, if at all.

 

I've read so much on this topic that it's hard to remember everything.

 

So, you agree it's a possibility.  It certainly appears to me, and many others, to be an option for them, and so easy to implement. 

 

On 5/28/2024 at 8:51 PM, Mike Lister said:

I have to keep coming back to the 89% of the workforce who don't file a tax return. If the Revenue wanted to tax income, that would be an obvious place to start and the return would be far greater because of the large volume of people involved. Whilst that is no easy task and has potential political ramifications, it is not impossible to think that some measures could be adopted periodically over time yet none have been, except the new offshore income rule tweak. In fact, the trend over the past two decades has been for successive governments to give back to the people using handouts, rather than to enforce taking from them by way of tax. 

 

Does the above mean that targeting the resident foreigner is more politically acceptable and easier? Possibly, but improbable I suggest, the bureaucratic complexity and the inefficiency of the bureaucracy, combined with the downside risk of losing foreigners who move away as a result are the main reasons why. 

 

As for using the banks as proxies to establish if overseas remittances are assessable or not: all the banks can do it to provide a list of overseas remittances for each of their customers, that ability exists today and is used by many people. But then what, the TRD is highly unlikely to ask foreign customers to state their tax residency status and state whether each of those remittances was assessable or not and prepare a report for the TRD to sign off on, in order to authorise Immigration to issue a visa.....goodness me, that's an exercise in futility if ever there was one.

 

My crystal ball tells me that nothing much will happen. There will be a significant increase in foreigners and Thai nationals filing tax returns in 1Q25 and reporting imported income but that will be because of momentum and news sharing in forums such as this. That increase alone may be sufficient for the TRD to consider the rule change a success and to do no more for a while. The fact is, TRD will be swamped and inundated with queries they are ill-equipped to handle. 

Once again, I couldn't care less about the 89% of Thai's working in the cash economy.  They don't need visas / extensions, I do. 

 

Most of them remit money domestically.  Eg.  the bar girl depositing cash into a Thai bank in the south tourist areas and then getting on the phone to transfer it to her mother in Issan.  If the Thai government want to start tracking such deposits, that's a matter for the Thai's.  As an expat retiree, I remit every baht I live on here from offshore.  That makes my deposits easy to trace, and me an easy target for this policy. 

 

Also, I don't care about the politics / racism about the policy if it only scoops up foreign remittance, whilst allowing Thai's to continue to work in the cash economy without paying tax.  Thailand has never been a fair society for the majority of Thai's, and foreigners here.  I am only concerned about the impact the policy has on foreigners.  I have never sought refuge behind statistics involving Thai nationals when I am considered an "alien" here.  

 

I see you are still relying on the TRD to implement this policy to the letter of the law.  Eg.  assessable income.  I have posted about it.  In my opinion, the TRD will not look that hard into it.  I agree with you, they don't have the man power. 

 

I have suggested they will look at your bank document, put you in a remittance bracket, and give you your tax bill.  There will not be any real way to discuss / review / appeal the matter, unless you are a high net worth individual.  You either pay and are good for your extension, or don't pay, and no extension.

 

As far as being a tax resident or not, pretty easy to tally up 180 days inside Thailand.  Just takes a quick flick through a passport.

 

What comes from those who do not or can not pay we can't discuss at this stage, but you have read some of my thoughts on the enforcement escalation from authorities.  We will see in 2025 what happens to people who either do not pay, or can not pay. 

 

In relation to your crystal ball, I find it hard to believe the policy will rely on volunteering your tax information, simply because it's not in human nature to pay out money for nothing, if you don't have to, with no punishment for not doing so. 

 

I hope you are right and nothing much happens, but I am sure the Thai government have crunched some numbers and see they are sitting on an easy earner.  Like I said, maybe it's all about just paying 300 / 500 / 1000 baht to the TRD for a document once a year, like we do for a Certificate of Residence, and they don't look into any of your tax affairs.  Who knows?  

 

My crystal ball tells me they have something up their sleeve to make a baht out of it one way or another, and either officially, or unofficially.  Just how, when, and for how much, we will have to wait and see. 

[scotsman]

I have reduced my spending and transfers to the point of not being liable to pay any tax if they want me to prove it with a tax return the forms have to be in English and it has everything you need to fill it out along with your double tax agreement for your country. also you can gift your wife some of the money for her expenditure.  also you  can claim tax relief on any thai health insurance.  I will only file if they have this in place. there is thousands of us living here and milions of thai people who also don't file any tax returns what is the chance of you being chosen for a audit not very likely.  when it comes to all the forms to backup your tax return including my P60 and the UK double taxation treaty and transfer bank statement from the bank or transverwise will they be able to understand most of it?   When this government see that there economy is losing money and it cost more to collect the very small or no tax from most of us they will change this policy  not include us.   

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, scotsman said:

I have reduced my spending and transfers to the point of not being liable to pay any tax if they want me to prove it with a tax return the forms have to be in English and it has everything you need to fill it out along with your double tax agreement for your country. also you can gift your wife some of the money for her expenditure.  also you  can claim tax relief on any thai health insurance.  I will only file if they have this in place. there is thousands of us living here and milions of thai people who also don't file any tax returns what is the chance of you being chosen for a audit not very likely.  when it comes to all the forms to backup your tax return including my P60 and the UK double taxation treaty and transfer bank statement from the bank or transverwise will they be able to understand most of it?   When this government see that there economy is losing money and it cost more to collect the very small or no tax from most of us they will change this policy  not include us.   

The forms and instructions are English, suggest you read the link below and click on the links to obtain them..

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, scotsman said:

I have reduced my spending and transfers to the point of not being liable to pay any tax if they want me to prove it with a tax return the forms have to be in English and it has everything you need to fill it out along with your double tax agreement for your country. also you can gift your wife some of the money for her expenditure.  also you  can claim tax relief on any thai health insurance.  I will only file if they have this in place. there is thousands of us living here and milions of thai people who also don't file any tax returns what is the chance of you being chosen for a audit not very likely.  when it comes to all the forms to backup your tax return including my P60 and the UK double taxation treaty and transfer bank statement from the bank or transverwise will they be able to understand most of it?   When this government see that there economy is losing money and it cost more to collect the very small or no tax from most of us they will change this policy  not include us.   

That's the spirit.  You tell them. 

 

Have you been to Cambodia before?