Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Doctor Tom]

1 hour ago, bugger bognor said:

Can anybody clarify next year have all  expats by LAW been ordered to register for a tax number and file accounts  or will it be voluntary!! I have seen nothing official on this anywhere! 

Then relax mate

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, bugger bognor said:

Can anybody clarify next year have all  expats by LAW been ordered to register for a tax number and file accounts  or will it be voluntary!! I have seen nothing official on this anywhere! 

I can clarify that the law has been put into effect and that all tax residents are expected to comply with it. If individuals are waiting for personalised invitations or instructions to be pushed through their mail boxes, it may prove to be a very long wait. In the meantime, the rules will not have been suspended, neither will the expectation of compliance with them. Perhaps those waiting for such notification should pinch themselves and remember where they are and try to recall when was the last time they had a personalised invitation from government to do anything! As she said, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas any more!

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The TRD Code states that a Thai tax resident must obtain a Thai TIN, within 60 days of exceeding the minimum threshold (60k, 120k or 220k) regardless of whether tax is payable or not.

Why are there three numbers?

What if you don't?

[Mike Lister]

18 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

 

As long as I don't receive an official written request from the tax office, I won't do anything. Imagine you're not a member here, then you wouldn't know anything about all the new tax stress.

 

 

 

 

Ignorance of the law is not usually a good defense in any country, least of all here, I imagine. The average person may not be a member of AN but they might be expected to read newspapers, read online forums/periodicals, have a visa agent and/or they might be expected to have a bank account, all of which would inform them of what changes have been implemented. Waiting for an official notice to appear in the mail box, seems to me to be bloody minded rather than practical or sensible but each to their own.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Why are there three numbers?

What if you don't?

As the tax guide states, the threshold varies based on marital status and source of income.

 

The penalty for not filing a return where no tax is due, is a possible fine of 2k baht. More importantly, not filing once the threshold has been breached, exposes you to back audits spanning the past ten years, instead of the normal three. Penalties for not filing where tax is due, are draconian.

[Mike Lister]

The tax guide is linked below, if anyone has further questions:

 

 

[Jingthing]

I deliberately will have zero assessable income for 2024 as I wanted more time to see how this mess shakes out.

I assume that means that even though a tax resident no obligation to have a tin or to file for tax year 2024. Sounds correct?

[matta01]

Quote

More importantly, not filing once the threshold has been breached, exposes you to back audits spanning the past ten years, 

You can hardly go back 10 years in time when you first apply the law this year. 

[Jingthing]

What a bonanza for so called tax advisors.

 

I'm too invested here to leave over this but it's another reason to not suggest retirement here to new people. 

 

[tomacht8]

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Ignorance of the law is not usually a good defense in any country, least of all here, I imagine. The average person may not be a member of AN but they might be expected to read newspapers, read online forums/periodicals, have a visa agent and/or they might be expected to have a bank account, all of which would inform them of what changes have been implemented. Waiting for an official notice to appear in the mail box, seems to me to be bloody minded rather than practical or sensible but each to their own.

555. Has nothing to do with ignorance, is more a well thought Decision. I'll just wait and see how this gigantic, bureaucratic monster show goes. I sit back and relax. The Thai tax authority doesn't even know by themselves how this is actually supposed to be organized or run in practice. I don't want to be one of the first guinea pigs where "experience" is first gained. I'm happy to pay any late fees, if at all. You are right: Everyone has to decide that for themselves.

Edited July 5 by tomacht8

[matta01]

Many laws and rules are open to different interpretations. One says that as a tax resident you must file a tax return. Two says that you are not obliged to bring money into Thailand this year. And so there are numerous contradictions. As long as the "official" source itself does not provide information, I don't think there is any need to speculate

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, matta01 said:

You can hardly go back 10 years in time when you first apply the law this year. 

The Thai tax law has always required tax residents to file a return, all that has changed this year is the year of remittance rule. Of course they can go back 10 years.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, matta01 said:

Many laws and rules are open to different interpretations. One says that as a tax resident you must file a tax return. Two says that you are not obliged to bring money into Thailand this year. And so there are numerous contradictions. As long as the "official" source itself does not provide information, I don't think there is any need to speculate

I don't understand why anyone thinks the official source does not provide the necessary information, only somebody who has never read it or bothered to look might think that.

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can clarify that the law has been put into effect and that all tax residents are expected to comply with it. If individuals are waiting for personalised invitations or instructions to be pushed through their mail boxes, it may prove to be a very long wait. In the meantime, the rules will not have been suspended, neither will the expectation of compliance with them. Perhaps those waiting for such notification should pinch themselves and remember where they are and try to recall when was the last time they had a personalised invitation from government to do anything! As she said, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas any more!

Actually that's what happened with my Condo tax. They started sending letters. 

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

555. Has nothing to do with ignorance, is more a well thought Decision. I'll just wait and see how this gigantic, bureaucratic monster show goes. I sit back and relax. The Thai tax authority doesn't even know by themselves how this is actually supposed to be organized or run in practice. I don't want to be one of the first guinea pigs where "experience" is first gained. I'm happy to pay any late fees, if at all. You are right: Everyone has to decide that for themselves.

That's fine, but don't be fooled into thinking the TRD doesn't know how this is actually supposed to be organized or run in practice. Not all the details of all financial transactions from all countries is well understood, but the framework and the majority of the basics are very well understood.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Actually that's what happened with my Condo tax. They started sending letters. 

Really, that's the first I've heard of that. Are the letters addressed to individual taxpayers or just anonymous mailings?

[tomacht8]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That's fine, but don't be fooled into thinking the TRD doesn't know how this is actually supposed to be organized or run in practice. Not all the details of all financial transactions from all countries is well understood, but the framework and the majority of the basics are very well understood.

Ok. I wait for the details then.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, tomacht8 said:

Ok. I wait for the details then.

Here's the details that are known:

 

 

[matta01]

It is only this year that Thailand has defined what a tax resident is in fact. Only this year we know that we are considered tax residents if we stay here more than 180 days.
Personally, I note how and in what way a tax office is operated in this case and let me say do not compare it with a Western country.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, matta01 said:

It is only this year that Thailand has defined what a tax resident is in fact. Only this year we know that we are considered tax residents if we stay here more than 180 days.
Personally, I note how and in what way a tax office is operated in this case and let me say do not compare it with a Western country.

Nonsense! The definition of tax resident has been well understood and documented in the TRD code for decades! The fact that foreigners mostly chose to ignore their obligation to Thai tax and this was not uniformly enforced, doesn't change much of anything. FWIW I've been filing Thai tax returns for several years, solely on the basis of remitted funds from overseas.

[tomacht8]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Here's the details that are known:

 

 

555. That are simple basics. It would be more interesting to have precise information about which tax documents from the respective home country have to be presented, how and in what form, or are recognized, so that the mutual double taxation agreement is not violated. Unfortunately, there are so many detailed questions that even my Thai tax expert ( tax law lecturer at 2 leading Thai universities) cannot answer for me at the moment.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, tomacht8 said:

555. That are simple basics. It would be more interesting to have precise information about which tax documents from the respective home country have to be presented, how and in what form, or are recognized, so that the mutual double taxation agreement is not violated. Unfortunately, there are so many detailed questions that even my Thai tax expert ( tax law lecturer at 2 leading Thai universities) cannot answer for me at the moment.

There is no requirement to present any documentation when filing a return, only to do so, if and when instructed.  If that instruction is given it seems likely they will specify what they require.

[matta01]

Quote

 

I don't understand why anyone thinks the official source does not provide the necessary information, only somebody who has never read it or bothered to look might think that.

1 You are not obliged to look everything up yourself (there are people that not have a pc)
2 As a "democratic & developed country" one would at least expect that if something changes, such as in this case with tax rules, that information will at least be provided that is accurate
3 If one looks at the "educational and fantastic" information that one can watch on television, then this is also possible.
4. However, in Thailand people are "specialists" in the field of information
but in a negative sense.
5. If one only has to know (or smell) "from oneself" what has changed or new, you will be surprised that many people say this is not for me. Even if you take it to heart, no one knows how the DTA will work (it's not a state secret after all) this are a few points

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, matta01 said:

1 You are not obliged to look everything up yourself (there are people that not have a pc)
2 As a "democratic & developed country" one would at least expect that if something changes, such as in this case with tax rules, that information will at least be provided that is accurate
3 If one looks at the "educational and fantastic" information that one can watch on television, then this is also possible.
4. However, in Thailand people are "specialists" in the field of information
but in a negative sense.
5. If one only has to know (or smell) "from oneself" what has changed or new, you will be surprised that many people say this is not for me. Even if you take it to heart, no one knows how the DTA will work (it's not a state secret after all) this are a few points

Re 1: What do you imagine locals do, however do they get by!!!

 

Re 2: That's a seriously funny statement, the closest I could get to the reality is that Thailand is classed as Developing rather than Developed. The 12 successful  coups and structure of the parliament, hardly classes the country as a democracy, not when 72% of the population voted for a party that was then beaten into second place.

[tomacht8]

25 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There is no requirement to present any documentation when filing a return, only to do so, if and when instructed.  If that instruction is given it seems likely they will specify what they require.

These are exactly my fears. In the worst case scenario, I would have to fly to Europe to get these documents - no one knows which documents at the moment. Then have it translated into Thai and then certified by my embassy in Bangkok. Then the certainly well-trained, regional island tax officer, who knows the DTAs in detail, would possibly conjure up a tax payment from his Excel 95 computer, which, if it was too high or not comprehensible, I would immediately dispute with the help of my Thai tax expert. My tax/income cases are much more complicated than compared to a pensioner who receives their pension every month. That's why I'm waiting for now, and yes, I'm waiting for the invitation from the tax office. Furthermore, I would not be able to quantify my income for 2024 at the end of March 2025. Here we come back to the DTA of my home country, where I first have to pay tax on my profits/income from real estate ownership in my home country. etc.

Edited July 5 by tomacht8

[Lorry]

50 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Really, that's the first I've heard of that. Are the letters addressed to individual taxpayers or just anonymous mailings?

Addressed to individual taxpayers.

Me too, a friend too, and another member mentioned this letter a couple of weeks ago in one of the tax threads

Edited July 5 by Lorry

[TimBKK]

31 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

555. That are simple basics. It would be more interesting to have precise information about which tax documents from the respective home country have to be presented, how and in what form, or are recognized, so that the mutual double taxation agreement is not violated. Unfortunately, there are so many detailed questions that even my Thai tax expert ( tax law lecturer at 2 leading Thai universities) cannot answer for me at the moment.

555 all you want, the fact remains that the burden is on you to comply.  To think in any other way is folly.

[tomacht8]

6 minutes ago, TimBKK said:

555 all you want, the fact remains that the burden is on you to comply.  To think in any other way is folly.

If you say so. The deadline is anyway in 9 month. So no panic. There will and must come more clarification from the Thai tax authority's. Now it is only a storm in a water cup.

Edited July 5 by tomacht8

[matta01]

My eldest son (50% Thai) has a PhD in political and social sciences and international development. He would provide a detailed explanation upon your request. There are numerous examples in Thai law(s) that can be interpreted in many different ways.
I laughingly call it the Constitution of Thailand: It is not what you know, but who you know. I have lived here as a retiree for more than a decade. The first time I applied for my annual extension there was no problem. The second time this was not the case.  I have since left the task to my Thai wife and watch it from a distance, never had any problems. When I see some people it bothers me, to be honest, I don't participate in brown envelopes or I don't prostitute myself here, everyone does what they want, of course.Personally, I don't think it is possible for people to announce something and then let everything take its course. If we only look at this forum, we see hundreds of messages, perhaps not all accurate or correct, but posted with good intentions (most of them anyway) by falangs very little or nothing from the Thai side. You can also interpret it this way: there is a lot to do for tourists who are accepted without a visa or the ban on alcohol is given up because they are not allowed to lack anything. However, people, pensioners who also contribute here, are simply ignored

[ChaiyaTH]

19 minutes ago, matta01 said:

However, people, pensioners who also contribute here, are simply ignored

Of course; the majority of your people married way too young (bar) girls, behave like apes and spend basically zero. No wonder there is a negative sentiment. Maybe that's why I and friends rarely have issues too; we are younger. We don't have that stigma, as long showing we have money.

 

Thais could miss the revenue from the old guys are a teeth that hurts and needs to be removed. Your nothing on the 500 billion USD GDP. They would value the social value etc, but that lacks just as much with old guys, they are actually usually grumpy or self isolated.

 

It's a nasty thing in their history, they want to erase and forget about. Just as much as Vietnamese want to forget their history.

Edited July 5 by ChaiyaTH