"Tingle" from deep well pump.

[PJHassselt]

Hi, 

Where should I start to look? We have our own well. About 60 meters deep. The pump is hanging on about 50 meters depth. 

It is hanging on a stainless steel wire. De pump is grounded, with its own local ground rod. De pump is powered to its own ELCB Nominal current from the pump is 10A. 
I noticed several times that the connection to the the floater switch sometimes makes a "humming" sound. I stripped the wires again, and renewed the "Waco" connectors. Sometimes (also strange, why sometimes?) the sound is back.  The floater operates a contacter, and the contacter operates the pump. 

Also recently, sometimes the ELCB is off. I did not pay much attention to this, I justed switched it on again. When I use the test button on the ELCB it works.

Recently, the pump was running, and I touched the stainless steel wire on what the pump is hanging. I got a really bad tingle. I know that the tingle you receive is usal not fatal when the ELCB remains on, but, for sure something is wrong. I am planning to lift the pump this weekend. 

I think it is unlikely the cable is damaged, on the other hand, is it likely the pump itself is fault?

Suggestions are welcome!

 

Peter.

[bluejets]

6 minutes ago, PJHassselt said:

I know that the tingle you receive is usal not fatal when the ELCB remains on, but, for sure something is wrong.

If the safety cut is wired correctly and it is in working order, you should NEVER feel any leakage current.

Show details of your installation, as much as possible.

Any "local grounding rod" is essentially a waste of time in any MEN system.

Edited June 18 by bluejets

[Crossy]

37 minutes ago, bluejets said:

Any "local grounding rod" is essentially a waste of time in any MEN system.

 

This is only true if you are exporting the TNC-S(MEN) ground.

 

I suspect that our OP may have his pump on a "TT island" with a 2-core cable (possibly 3-core if the pump capacitor is in the control box) and a local rod. Whilst I understand this is not permitted under Aus regs, we are not in Aus.

 

TT islands are common practice for outbuildings in the UK and, provided they are protected by an RCD/RCBO at the source, are deemed safe.

 

@PJHassselt Is the pump suspension wire also connected to the local rod? 

 

As to why you are getting the electrical leakage. It could be a weepy cable seal at the pump or maybe a joint in the cable down the hole. Either of which will require the pump to be pulled and the attention of the brand service centre sought.

[PJHassselt]

Thanks for reply,

 

The suspension wire, is that the cable on what the pump is hanging?

 

No that is not connected to the ground rod.

 

Peter.

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, PJHassselt said:

The suspension wire, is that the cable on what the pump is hanging?

No that is not connected to the ground rod.

 

Connecting the suspension wire to the rod would likely stop you getting a tingle.

 

BUT

 

It may also cause your RCD (ELCB is an old term and is now reserved for a specific type of device) to constantly trip.

 

You really need your pump looking at.

[PJHassselt]

Thanks Crossy, I will lift the pump this weekend. 

My guess is when it is a "weepy" cable seal I should not feel a tingle, because the pump itself is grounded. If I remember well the cable has somewhere a joint in it. The pomp itself has a rectangular rubber cable from around 8 meters length. And somewhere it changes in a round cable. We bought it like this. But probably I remember wrong. 

We will see this weekend.

Thanks again for replying.  

[PJHassselt]

Update:

 

The pump is about 18 years old. It runs about three times a day for about 1,5 hour to fill our water tower. 

I installed it myself. It is a three fase pump, so it has a running capacitor. The cable is four core. One ground, and three fase wires. Today we hired an elctrician (a real one, Somchai was not available) One of the fase cables had a shortcut to the housing from the pump. I was shocked to see when he removed the cable to extend the cable from the pump, the cable to the pump is just three core. The ground cable just stops at the joint!!

 

So we decided to buy a new one. I am very surprised you can not buy these pumps with an cable from 40, or 60 meters. They all come with two to three meter cable. You have to join a cable. This joint is (anyway in our case) often submersed. 

I am planning to send the old one back to the supplier, (Jacuzzi) and request them to repair this pump and mount a cable (grounded!!) from 40 meters without a joint. 

Then we have a spare pump.

So far...

 

Peter.

 

[impulse]

If you get a chance, post a photo of the motor and pump nameplates and the socket where the motor lead plugs into the motor.  Also, it would be handy to know the cable gage, length and configuration (3+gd, 4+gd, etc).  May not be too helpful immediately if you're installing a new unit, but it may be helpful in the future if you start having issues.

 

 

[PJHassselt]

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

If you get a chance, post a photo of the motor and pump nameplates and the socket where the motor lead plugs into the motor.  Also, it would be handy to know the cable gage, length and configuration (3+gd, 4+gd, etc).  May not be too helpful immediately if you're installing a new unit, but it may be helpful in the future if you start having issues.

 

 

As requested

[bluejets]

Taped up joint in submersible cable is a no-no.

Willing to bet converted from 3 conductors to 2 while they were at it.

 

"safety flip flops" and electric...no match.

[bluejets]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:51 AM, Crossy said:

I suspect that our OP may have his pump on a "TT island" with a 2-core cable (possibly 3-core if the pump capacitor is in the control box) and a local rod. Whilst I understand this is not permitted under Aus regs, we are not in Aus.

Irrevalant in which country you reside, I'd be willing to bet the system is not wired as per regs let alone have ever had an impedance test done to determine correct circuit breakers.

Or for that matter the elcb tested for correct trip time or whether it trips at all at a 30mA level on the zero and the 180 degree mark.

Ground mass resistance is no match for low impedance of a copper earth return cable.

Last time i looked, majority of Thailand is MEN.

In fact have never come across any others in over 10 years.

 

For the benefit of all who think by jamming a steel rod in the ground is a good move, take a GOOD look at the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN7s4ge1FoQ

Edited June 23 by bluejets

[PJHassselt]

"The safety flip-flops" are mine. I did not work at all on the pump. I just took the pictures. 

[PJHassselt]

With a new installation I can imagine all should be checked with correct equipment (Will it be done in Thailand?) 

This pump is here over 15 years. It has been connected, and no issues. I test frequent all our RCD's. Do you think there is any person in the world who checks the RCD's on the 0 and 180 degrees, and check at what leakage current they open?

 

You start to do this after a family member died.... 

 

What you say is probably correct. But not practical.

 

Peter.

 

 

[Crossy]

12 hours ago, PJHassselt said:

Do you think there is any person in the world who checks the RCD's on the 0 and 180 degrees, and check at what leakage current they open?

 

It's a part of the installation tests both in the UK and Aus, the results are recorded on an installation report.

 

It's also part of the UK EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) which is required before a landlord can rent out a dwelling. I assume Aus has a similar requirement.

 

Of course, "normal" people just press the "Test" button if and when they remember. I've seen RCDs that actually fail to open when the button is pressed. If its mechanism is stuck due to lack of use it's not going to save you when you need it 😞 

[PJHassselt]

In case one of our RCD's fails to open after pressing the test button, I replace them. But I never do the tests @bluejets is suggesting now. And I think it is unlikely people will do. 

 

But bluejets tells now I am stupid, to take pictures wearing my Flipflops.

I requested manufacter from the pump to replace it with a four core cable, from 20 meters, without a joint. And I feel it as strange you can not buy. All pumps have a joint in the cable.....

 

Peter.