Genset ATS wiring help req

[Steve&mem]

Bought a 7.2 KW genset that's ats ready. Just orderd a smartgen HGM6120N controler but on checking the genset manual there is no mention of the ATS connection's. The dealer that sold me the genny sent a picture that is as clear as mud to me (I think it from another make and model).

I also have a Diesel Genset Battery Charger that I believe is to be connected to the B+ and B- pin 1 and 2 of the controller.

Anyway can anyone give directions on how to wire this please.

[carlyai]

Bit vague as don't have my genset book with me, but, when the mains fail a contact in the ATS closes and extends an earth (from the control unit) to the control unit.

This then extends battery on terminal 4 ( to turn on the fuel pump), then terminal 5 ( battery to crank the starter).

In my setup, the control unit monitors the 220V genset output and if not present tries to start the genset 3 times then locks out restarting.

If monitored 220v is present the genset continues to run until mains is restored and the ATS restors relays to normal.

I'll try and find my notes.

 

 

 

[Steve&mem]

Last night I went out and stuck my meter across the pins. Going by the diagram above I presume it is the female plug depicted.

Pin 5 has continuity to 12+ on Battery cable and pins 1 and 2 shows continuity on the 12- on battery cable (battery disconnected).

After putting the cables back on the battery I accidentally jump pins 5 and 4 and the genny cranked over.

After doing some searching I found this which seems to make more sense to me if we disregard pin 6

 

[carlyai]

Can't find my notes, filed away somewhere.

I think 1 and 2 are the control wires to and from the ATS and 14 is for the charger. May be wrong.

[carlyai]

Sequence: you have to get 12 v input to pin 2 for the fuel pump, then  to the start relay. All sequences in the controller. But to start all this sequence you first need an earth return to the control unit when the ATS operates. So on the ATS I think you need to connect to 1 and 3 of the circular connector.

[Crossy]

What's the make and model of your genset? Hopefully we can find proper details on 'tinternet 🙂 

 

[Steve&mem]

I think I'm getting confused with the pin numbers anyway its a Urogen 7.2 KW 

 

[carlyai]

With my genset control module I had to disconnect the manual key start and wire in the control module. The control module takes place of the manual key start.

Not sure if you're getting the control module and ATS connections confused.

Sorry if you know all this.

[Steve&mem]

I know nothing, I've got a basic electrical knowledge. But I'm determined to DIY this thing or die trying  💀 

[carlyai]

Long time dead. 🙂

My control module is similar to yours and I mounted it where the start switch was. Once you install the auto start control module you don't need the start switch. The connections that went to the start switch are now terminated on the module.

That black box with the red switch is my control module mounted in the genset.

 

[Steve&mem]

6 hours ago, carlyai said:

Bit vague as don't have my genset book with me, but, when the mains fail a contact in the ATS closes and extends an earth (from the control unit) to the control unit.

This then extends battery on terminal 4 ( to turn on the fuel pump), then terminal 5 ( battery to crank the starter).

In my setup, the control unit monitors the 220V genset output and if not present tries to start the genset 3 times then locks out restarting.

If monitored 220v is present the genset continues to run until mains is restored and the ATS restors relays to normal.

I'll try and find my notes.

 

 

 

I think I may have the answers to my problem because of what said, the numbers on the back of this sockeket correspond to what I have written on the front, I will know more next week when my control panel arrives.

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Long time dead. 🙂

My control module is similar to yours and I mounted it where the start switch was. Once you install the auto start control module you don't need the start switch. The connections that went to the start switch are now terminated on the module.

 

The genset shown is ATS ready which in this case means it has a dedicated connector for ATS control.

 

Normally one would purchase a compatible plug and play ATS similar to the photo below but it appears the OP has chosen a DIY route using a multi function controller that can handle all functions and monitoring of backup power.

 

Identifying the exact function of each ATS connection at the genset would be my first call.  The description shown is a little vague.
 

 

 

Plug & Play ATS

 

 

[carlyai]

I feel the ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch) in a different beast to the Control Module. 

Still need a control module connected to the internal genset ATS or you have to use the key to start the genset manually first.

 

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, Steve&mem said:

I think I may have the answers to my problem because of what said, the numbers on the back of this sockeket correspond to what I have written on the front, I will know more next week when my control panel arrives.

 

My two cents :-

Genset Fuel to controller pin 4 Fuel
Genset Crank to controller pin 5 Crank
Genset Start relay to controller pin 6 Aux output
Genset 12V+ to controller pin 2 B+
Genset 12v- to controller pin 1 B-

Emergency stop input 12V+ on controller pin 3 to cut crank and fuel power.

 

Wiring of power transfer device and power monitoring to controller. 
 

 

 

[Fruit Trader]

34 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I feel the ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch) in a different beast to the Control Module. 

Still need a control module connected to the internal genset ATS or you have to use the key to start the genset manually first.

 

 

Yes it is but some ATS include an electronic control module or timer relays capable of starting the genset via a dedicated ATS connecting cable.  Not all gensets have this connection available and require some mods to the start circuit to add automation.

 

Like you I prefer to think of them separately and not combine under the ATS label. 

[bluejets]

17 hours ago, Steve&mem said:

But I'm determined to DIY this thing or die trying  💀 

When it comes to anything mains related, it's not YOU the authorities are concerned about so much as OTHER PEOPLE.

[carlyai]

17 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

My two cents :-

Genset Fuel to controller pin 4 Fuel
Genset Crank to controller pin 5 Crank
Genset Start relay to controller pin 6 Aux output
Genset 12V+ to controller pin 2 B+
Genset 12v- to controller pin 1 B-

Emergency stop input 12V+ on controller pin 3 to cut crank and fuel power.

 

Wiring of power transfer device and power monitoring to controller. 
 

 

 

To get the genset going I think you need: AuxOutput 3 control unit pins 10 and 11.

Fuel Solonoid pin 4.

Starter Motor pin 5.

You need the circuit as Crossy suggested.

(I think) is not good enough, must be sure.

[Steve&mem]

OK just to help people understand the control panle I ordered, the smartgen HGM6120N which should be arriving next week, this only switches on and off the genset automatically along with some monitoring of the power and give the optional Emergency Stop button if required, it will also link with the battery charger to keep the genset battery full.

The switchover from PEA power to generator is a different piece of kit, these will be housed in a metal cabinet.

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

To get the genset going I think you need: AuxOutput 3 control unit pins 10 and 11.

Fuel Solonoid pin 4.

Starter Motor pin 5.

You need the circuit as Crossy suggested.

(I think) is not good enough, must be sure.

 

I chose Aux output 1 (programmable) for the start relay because its contact is already on the 12v+ line as shown below at the internal diagram.

 

What I am not so sure about is the how this particular diesel genset handles pin 4 (start relay) 

 

 

 

 

[Steve&mem]

Looking at the diagram of the pins shown below I now know that the numbers do not mach up with the number's on the back of the socket, they are too small for me to see .

If we use the numbers as in the diagram and as shown matching the genset picture.

Pin 1,   12v + cable to control panel B+ connection 2

Pin 2,   Cable to control panel connection 4 fuel

Pin 3,   12v- cable to control panel B- connection 1

Pin4,   I think Fruit Trader could be right. Control Panel connection 6. This should turn on the power of genset after a pre-            programmed time and turn off again when finished. (same as turning the on-off key)

Pin5,   Cable to control panel connection 5 starter motor or Crank

 

I am hoping that connection's 10  11 and also 12  13 being 250v can also manage the Transfer switch from PEA to Genset with time delays.

The battery charger I believe is connected to B- B+ of the control panel.

[carlyai]

I have found that a start delay is needed where I am as the mains power fails, then after a few seconds delay, comes back on again and stays on or goes completely off.

So my genset was starting, switching over to genset power, then switching back to mains and closing down.

I had to install a time delay relay on start.

Should have installed a delay on stop as well.

 

 

[carlyai]

Steve&mem

Did you get any external mounted relays with the control unit?

Just asking cause you don't show them in your picture. 🙂

[Steve&mem]

13 hours ago, carlyai said:

Steve&mem

Did you get any external mounted relays with the control unit?

Just asking cause you don't show them in your picture. 🙂

When the control panel eventually gets here from China (should be this week) it is just the panel that you see in the picture, What relay's did you have in mind.

[carlyai]

1 hour ago, Steve&mem said:

When the control panel eventually gets here from China (should be this week) it is just the panel that you see in the picture, What relay's did you have in mind.

You can't drive the starter motor just from the control unit too much current. You have to operate a relay to supply the current.

Same for the fuel solonoid.

See what the control module book says or a diagram of the control module setup.

I can send you a pic of my setup if you're not sure.

[Steve&mem]

I always thought that an ATS ready Genset had the relays in place. Now you have got me to reconsider that line of thought.

I have just been looking again at the electrical symbols on the internet and compering with control panel symbols, I see that little square box could represent the external relays that you mentioned.

At the moment I don't know how to check if the genset has relays or not.

[Fruit Trader]

17 minutes ago, Steve&mem said:

I always thought that an ATS ready Genset had the relays in place. Now you have got me to reconsider that line of thought.

I have just been looking again at the electrical symbols on the internet and compering with control panel symbols, I see that little square box could represent the external relays that you mentioned.

At the moment I don't know how to check if the genset has relays or not.

 

For most gensets fitted with an ATS remote start port, any high current switching will be handled internally.

 

If this were not the case, the fuel and crank relays of the Smartgen controller are rated at 16A which is more than enough to handle a starter solenoid and fuel valve.

This project is of interest to me because the brother-in-law plans to use one of the Chinese multifunction genset controllers in one of his up and coming work projects.
 

[Crossy]

20 minutes ago, Steve&mem said:

At the moment I don't know how to check if the genset has relays or not.

 

Open it up and have a look, or assume it doesn't and use your own.

 

12V "automotive" relays are cheap and more than up to the task in hand 🙂 

[Fruit Trader]

14 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Open it up and have a look, or assume it doesn't and use your own.

 

12V "automotive" relays are cheap and more than up to the task in hand 🙂 

 

He should really sketch out the internal wiring because these Chinese gensets follow no standard and it would be useful to know how this particular genset has handled a five pin ATS port.

 

Good news is Smartgen have designed their controller to handle starter solenoid and fuel control current directly if required. 

 

[Steve&mem]

OK tomorrow if weather permits I'm going to open up the panels and have a look inside. The paperwork for the genset says that that it's made to Italian Standards 🤪 5555

[Steve&mem]

Relay's included, but the wiring is not what I thought, if I had connected to what I had show before I would have reversed the fuel and 12v- connection's. The picture of the back of the 5 pin ATS connection's we can see some of the numbers.

Red cable Pin 1, 12v pos

Yellow cable Pin 2, Crank

Orange cable Pin 3, I believe to be the start Relay

Green cable (it looks blue in the picture) Pin 4, Fuel

Black cable Pin 5, 12v neg.

 

I have now found the on-line manual for the smartgen controller and a few youtube vids as well. 

HGM6110N_6120N_6110NC_6120NC_6110CAN_6120CAN_en.pdf (smartgen.cn)