A Visit to the Tax Office

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Whoops, simple maths is beyond me as I completely messed up how much Withheld Interest I'll be able to claim back & it's more like 60K not 8K (a little over 3.5M on deposit at 1.7 %) so now I will be filing a Tax Return for 2024. 

 

NB. Not trying to "Show Off" here, I'm 19 months away from receiving a pension & whilst I do have passive income in the UK, I don't like to have to rely on it ( https://home.barclays/content/dam/home-barclays/documents/investor-relations/IRNewsPresentations/2020news/20200331-Barclays-Dividend-RNS.pdf 3 days before it was due to pay me enough money to live on for 3 months) so when I moved to Thailand full time in Feb 2020 I moved 6 years living expenses over with me to last me until my pensions kick in.

 

Very Stupid as the SGD is 20% stronger now than when I moved it, but seemingly smart now as it means I don't have to remit any money for the next 3 years if I don't want to, but by sticking to 435K remittance (my & GF's) tax free numbers) it will last me 4 years - I only need it to last me 19 months.  

 

I know all about the 1Million Bank Guarantee but IMHO if Bangkok Bank ever did go bust the THB would take such a nosedive I'd probably be much better off financially even if I lost 2.5Million THB so not worried about that at all.

  

 

So does this mean the drinks are not on you on Saturday? 🙂

[poobear]

I understand the U.S. social security is not taxed in Thailand but I have a question about reporting Social Security funds remitted into Thailand.   Do they need to be reported anywhere on the tax return in Thailand. I am keeping my records about where the Social Security comes from and when how it is transferred into Thailand.        

 

I would emit both my Social security from the U.S. via wire transfer, and also remit assessable income from a separate account.

[Mike Teavee]

4 minutes ago, poobear said:

I understand the U.S. social security is not taxed in Thailand but I have a question about reporting Social Security funds remitted into Thailand.   Do they need to be reported anywhere on the tax return in Thailand. I am keeping my records about where the Social Security comes from and when how it is transferred into Thailand.        

 

I would emit both my Social security from the U.S. via wire transfer, and also remit assessable income from a separate account.

US SS is covered by the US-TH DTA so is not considered "Assessable Income" & does not need to be reported in Thailand, however your other income may be "Assessable Income" so best to check but if it amounts to <120K THB (Single guy) then no need to file a tax return. 

 

Edited June 26 by Mike Teavee

[NoDisplayName]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

One step at a time.

 

If you're a single filer you can't claim your wife;s deductions. Are you married and if so, are you filing single or jointly?

 

Bur yes, the health insurance premium must be paid to a company in Thailand.

 

Maybe.  I just found the English version of the deduction rules, where it states (page 19):

 

Quote

 

If you have a health insurance, the premium that you pay may be deducted from your assessable income subject to the following conditions:
(1) the premium is paid to an insurance company operating in Thailand
( 2 ) the qualified amount is the amount you actually pay, but not exceeding 25 ,000 baht, for premium paid from 1st January 2020 onwards

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/080966Ins94.pdf

 

 

Interpret.

[NoDisplayName]

16 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Very interesting the Thai pink ID card doubles as a tax card, thank you.

 

Still waiting on activation.  Tax e-File site for registration or login.

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

Won't know until next week if I am to register using the Thai script name from the pink ID, or the English name on the old TIN card.

 

Wife told me (just now!) that office lady asked which we preferred, and wifi chose English name.

 

If so, that might smooth direct deposit of any refund checks.

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, NJHOUSE said:

Lacessit is wrong.

Yes.  I agree. 

Edited June 26 by KhunHeineken

[Ben Zioner]

22 hours ago, Lacessit said:

2023 income transferred in 2024 IMO would be taxable. AFAIK it's not if transferred in 2023.

It is the opposite, it has always been taxable if you transferred in 2023, the year or earning. This hasn't change but many people have been evading tax by ignoring this rule. 

 

Anyhow look at this nice picture.

 

 

[samtam]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:29 AM, Lacessit said:

Very interesting the Thai pink ID card doubles as a tax card, thank you.

 

That's good to know. I have the Pink ID, but no TIN, should I need to file.

[samtam]

On 6/25/2024 at 8:54 PM, NoDisplayName said:

In case anyone was wondering, we did ask about the worldwide taxation proposal mentioned by the head of the TRD.

 

Office lady knew nothing about it, and said it was just somebody talking about some idea.  This office will follow the new 2024 remittance rule.  Ignore rumours until a new law is approved.

 

The only phrase I caught between my wife and office lady was "Big Boss."  Not sure if they were referring to me.

 

Seems to a lot of this* around... *"it was just somebody talking about some idea". Some might even suggest the head of RD reinterpreting the tax law, (all inward remittances irrespective of date), is just some idea, certainly without any Act.

 

The present (and hopefully short-lived) government seems to be determined to undermine confidence in Thailand's financial system.

 

On the one hand the clown-in-chief* spends an inordinate amount of time as Thailand's world class salesman, but so far without much to show for it. Whereas, as if to contradict that endeavour, endless "talking about some idea", (including the unintelligible change in condo % ownership law), also seems counterintuitive on the face of it . 

 

Anyway, the game board may be about to be upended when the 3 pending decisions are made by the Constitutional Court, (MPF, Srettha, and Thaksin).....plus the Bhumjaithai Chidchob case, (unless that has already been bought and paid for). In all likelihood Srettha & Thaksin cases will be resolved in the usual manner, (ironically, as the Srettha case is in relation to the money in the cake box method). Plus the Senate "election" seems to be a complete sham.

 

Time for someone to make up something new to float along with the other unmentionables. Weed is still "floating", and not sure how those leaves have been interpreted.

 

*At least someone isn't smiling inanely any longer. Perhaps he can get back to performing a magic trick on the dying property market, without killing the golden geese, that currently seems part of the schtick. 

 

By the way, a former Thai employee at Sansiri informed me that it's founder holds foreigners in disdain, so current actions fall in line with that.

 

 

Edited June 27 by samtam

[KhunHeineken]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 AM, samtam said:

Some might even suggest the head of RD reinterpreting the tax law, (all inward remittances irrespective of date), is just some idea, certainly without any Act.

Well, Certificates of Residence are supposed to be free, but most pay 300 baht. 

 

Why wouldn't the bosses of TRD offices make up their own rules to put their own snouts in the trough as well? 

 

Said it before, most expat pensioners may not even have to pay any tax, but they MAY have to pay for a document from the TRD, and just like the free Certificate of Residence that is 300 baht, that goes straight into someone's pocket.   

 

We will get to see how it unfolds early next year, but they can change the rules on the fly to suit themselves. 

 

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 AM, samtam said:

The present (and hopefully short-lived) government seems to be determined to undermine confidence in Thailand's financial system.

Irrelevant to foreigners living here.  The government simply doesn't care.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 AM, samtam said:

On the one hand the clown-in-chief* spends an inordinate amount of time as Thailand's world class salesman, but so far without much to show for it. Whereas, as if to contradict that endeavour, endless "talking about some idea", (including the unintelligible change in condo % ownership law), also seems counterintuitive on the face of it . 

Relevance? 

 

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 AM, samtam said:

Anyway, the game board may be about to be upended when the 3 pending decisions are made by the Constitutional Court, (MPF, Srettha, and Thaksin).....plus the Bhumjaithai Chidchob case, (unless that has already been bought and paid for). In all likelihood Srettha & Thaksin cases will be resolved in the usual manner, (ironically, as the Srettha case is in relation to the money in the cake box method). Plus the Senate "election" seems to be a complete sham.

 

And your point in relation to foreigners is????

 

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 AM, samtam said:

*At least someone isn't smiling inanely any longer. Perhaps he can get back to performing a magic trick on the dying property market, without killing the golden geese, that currently seems part of the schtick. 

The property market has been dead for years, due to oversupply.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 AM, samtam said:

By the way, a former Thai employee at Sansiri informed me that it's founder holds foreigners in disdain,

So do most Thai's. 

Edited June 28 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 6/26/2024 at 11:21 PM, Ben Zioner said:

It is the opposite, it has always been taxable if you transferred in 2023, the year or earning. This hasn't change but many people have been evading tax by ignoring this rule. 

 

Anyhow look at this nice picture.

 

 

Correct.

 

Lacessit thought he would avoid the tax by moving some funds late 2023.  It's tax he should have always been paying, like most, if not all of us. 

 

He's now getting paid a pittance from a Thai bank, and probably losing more in interest than his tax liability in Thailand. 

[Mike Lister]

On 6/26/2024 at 11:22 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Maybe.  I just found the English version of the deduction rules, where it states (page 19):

 

 

Interpret.

Just saw this, sorry.

 

I'm pretty certain there are no non-Thai insurance companies operating in Thailand, like the foreign banks, they are all at least 51% Thai owned. Also, it's against the law for non-Thai insurance policies to be sold in Thailand and illegal also for brokers in Thailand to discuss non-Thai products.

[scoutman360]

The new tax rules seem to be a mess. Especially for Americans who have different taxation brackets for capital gains vs. earned (or passive) income. Thailand and many countries have double taxation treaties. So, let's say an American sells some stock with $30k USD of capital gains and adds it to a pile of savings with already $30k USD in the bank.  Then such foreigner sends $30k USD to Thailand. Which pile did the transfer come from? There were no gains on the savings pile so should be no taxation. Who decides that? Also, given the complicated U.S tax code, it is impossible to decide and chose which transferred money should be taxed in Thailand and how much.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, scoutman360 said:

The new tax rules seem to be a mess. Especially for Americans who have different taxation brackets for capital gains vs. earned (or passive) income. Thailand and many countries have double taxation treaties. So, let's say an American sells some stock with $30k USD of capital gains and adds it to a pile of savings with already $30k USD in the bank.  Then such foreigner sends $30k USD to Thailand. Which pile did the transfer come from? There were no gains on the savings pile so should be no taxation. Who decides that? Also, given the complicated U.S tax code, it is impossible to decide and chose which transferred money should be taxed in Thailand and how much.

YOU must decide which pile the transfer came from and so state, you are the only one who can......that said, be careful with commingled accounts where different types/sources of funds are intertwined, try to keep them separate if poss.

 

The US is not unique in having different tax rates, it;s a common problem.

[jayceenik]

Any chance this new TRD tax mess could be delayed ? 

And be {re}implemented at a later date ...

Like the airport tax, and the tourist tax, and ...

[Mike Lister]

43 minutes ago, jayceenik said:

Any chance this new TRD tax mess could be delayed ? 

And be {re}implemented at a later date ...

Like the airport tax, and the tourist tax, and ...

It has already happened, the tax year has begun, under the new rules.

[Ben Zioner]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It has already happened, the tax year has begun, under the new rules.

No, under the old rules (por.161 & por.162), as the new rules may be coming any day now...

 

But Goofy's popularity ratings are now well below 10%

Edited July 2 by Ben Zioner

[topt]

45 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

No, under the old rules (por.161 & por.162), as the new rules may be coming any day now...

You are talking semantics. 

Arguably Por 161/162 are the new rules as they only came into effect from 1/01/2024. The new rules you refer to (I am presuming the move to WW taxation) is a suggested change which at the moment is only that - a statement suggested by the RD DG. So not rules yet.......

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, topt said:

You are talking semantics. 

Arguably Por 161/162 are the new rules as they only came into effect from 1/01/2024. The new rules you refer to (I am presuming the move to WW taxation) is a suggested change which at the moment is only that - a statement suggested by the RD DG. So not rules yet.......

You take these things way too seriously..

[topt]

14 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

You take these things way too seriously..

sorry, lack of sleep...........

[NoDisplayName]

***UPDATE***

 

Tried all week to register on the tax system, but no luck.  Tried English name all caps, no caps, with spaces, without spaces, and Thai name.

 

Honey-bunny called the help line (1161) and found my Thai name had been entered.  Note if registering with a pink ID, default register choices are English Mr. Mrs. other.   If Thai name from pink ID is used, you select "other" and choose นาย from the dropdown menu.

 

Once accepted, you set up a password, and choose if OTP goes to phone or email.

 

I logged on and went to file 90/91 which defaults to 2023, with the option of changing filing prior years 2022 or 2021.  Seems it's still possible to claim refunds for three years of interest tax paid if you want.  I read that was not possible online, but the options are there.

 

I believe after completing the filing, you choose refund by check or PromptPay.

 

Good Lucky!

[scoutman360]

The new tax rules are a good way to keep foreign money out of Thailand during a time when the Thai economy desparately needs it.

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/3/2024 at 11:02 AM, scoutman360 said:

The new tax rules are a good way to keep foreign money out of Thailand during a time when the Thai economy desparately needs it.

Not that it's a big problem in Thailand, but it helps to reduce inflation also. 

[NoDisplayName]

***UPDATE v2***

 

Just for fun, we logged into the system today and filed three years of tax returns.  Quick and easy, took less than 15 minutes each.  No current year income was remitted, so no remittance amounts claimed as income.  Interest and dividend received and tax withheld was entered into the form, with no uploaded documentation required.  I have the dividend receipts, but wanted to avoid the 2-3 hour wait at our Bangkok Bank branch for the interest statement, and confirmed not necessary unless filing in person.  Note that the payer tax ID numbers were required, from Bangkok Bank and my Thai broker, that I found on documents in my files.

 

Filed for 2021, even though was not tax resident.  (177 days)  Dividends and interest would result in 500 baht refund if filed that year.  Filed late, so apparently no refund.  No late filing fee.   Got an immediate receipt for tax filed and downloaded final version of PD90.

 

Filed for 2022, tax resident with similar dividend and interest amounts.  Filed late, no refund, no late filing fee.  Received receipt for filing tax and downloaded PD90.

 

2023 filing was also late, with a total refund amount of 850 baht.  There was a 200 baht late filing fee, which I paid by bank transfer.  Downloaded provisional PD90.  The tax receipt and final download version of PD90 will be available in a couple days.  Should receive a refund check in a couple weeks.

 

Yes, I know.  I didn't need to file, shouldn't poke the jingjok.  But now I'm registered in the system, know how to do the filings, and have three years of approved tax returns if ever invited to an interview.

 

For the next couple years, will keep remittances below the taxable threshold and spend down in-country savings.   Not necessary, as I suspect we'll continue to self-assess remittances, but..........

 

 

 

Edited July 7 by NoDisplayName

[JimGant]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:28 PM, NoDisplayName said:

Enter amount of remittance and check "savings" as source of funds.

I thought tax forms wanted only assessable income entered? Savings are NOT assessable income -- so why would you enter it -- and check "Savings" as source of funds?

[Lorry]

36 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I thought tax forms wanted only assessable income entered? Savings are NOT assessable income -- so why would you enter it -- and check "Savings" as source of funds?

Good observation. 

I agree.

 

I head a look at the form PND 90 - it asks for assessable income. 

Savings are not income,  much less assessable income.

There's no field "remittances".

Neither is there a field "savings" as source of fund to check. 

Is the online form any different? 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Lorry said:

Good observation. 

I agree.

 

I head a look at the form PND 90 - it asks for assessable income. 

Savings are not income,  much less assessable income.

There's no field "remittances".

Neither is there a field "savings" as source of fund to check. 

Is the online form any different? 

 

The new forms and the revised online system will be available by November/December.

[StraightTalk]

On 7/7/2024 at 9:10 PM, NoDisplayName said:

approved tax returns

How long did it take to receive an acceptance and approval notification after filing the tax returns?

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

I thought tax forms wanted only assessable income entered? Savings are NOT assessable income -- so why would you enter it -- and check "Savings" as source of funds?

 

This appears to be a misunderstanding somewhere between me and the wife and the tax lady.  I checked with my wifi, and after almost two weeks she doesn't remember exactly what was said.

 

I speculate that maybe perhaps the tax lady was thinking I could possibly be entering some type of DTA excluded income, and there might be a box to tick indicating such.....but that's just a guess. 

 

More likely, she was overwhelmed by all of our 'tink too mutt' questions concerning so many possibilities, or I asked a poorly formulated question, or honey-bunny mistranslated.

 

Someone made a misteak somewhere.

 

As the system currently functions, we enter income amounts only, and for now we still self-assess type/source of funds, and self-determine whether we should enter those amounts as assessable income. 

 

There is no space to enter remittances, thus no box to tick indicating type of transfers.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

How long did it take to receive an acceptance and approval notification after filing the tax returns?

 

***UPDATE v3***

 

We filed three returns on Sunday, July 07.  Tax filings for 2021, 2022 and 2023 were all late filings.

 

Income included Bangkok Bank interest and SET dividends.  Wise transfers were self-assessed as savings and not entered.

 

All would have resulted in a refund of ~750-1000 baht if filed on time.  Late filings don't get refunds?  There was no late filing fee for 2021 or 2022.  There was a 200 baht late filing fee for 2023.

 

Filings for 2021 and 2022 were accepted and I downloaded a provision PD90 with "placeholder" watermark as submitted.  Both returns were approved immediately, and I was given the option to download a final PD90 and a filing receipt.

 

2023 filing was also accepted, and the provisional PD90 was downloaded.  This one required a 200 baht late fee, which was paid at filing time, with the tax system connecting to Bangkok Bank for an online funds transfer.   This return was still in pending status.

 

At this point, on the status page (ตรวจสอบผลการยื่นแบบ), the first two filings were listed as 'normal filing', and 2023 was listed as 'in process.'

 

The following day, the 2023 return changed to 'normal filing', and the 'recent update status' timestamp changed to Monday, July 08.

 

And here we had a minor hiccup.  I was unable to download the final PD90 or filing receipt.  Popup box asked for taxpayer ID, but when entered, red popup box said the taxpayer ID number was incorrect.  Tried all week to download without success, also getting the same result with the first two filings.

 

Had the wifi call the local office this morning to resolve this.

 

Turns out (กรุณากรอกเลขประจำตัวผู้เสียภาษีอากรของผู้จ่ายเงินได้) was NOT asking for MY taxpayer ID number.  To access this feature, you must enter the tax ID number of one of the entities where you sourced income and had tax withheld.  I used the taxpayer ID of Bangkok Bank which I had entered on the filing, and was able to download the final PD90 and tax receipt, and receipt for late filing fee.

 

All tax receipts have a balance of 0.00

All PD90's indicate overpaid tax.

 

During final acceptance of each filing, we checked the box to have refund of tax paid check be mailed to us.  We assumed that the zero balance on the first two receipts, and no late filing fee, meant no refund authorized.  We assumed that the late filing fee, only charged on the 2023 filing, meant there would be a refund check sent.

 

Stay tuned for update v.3 when we report either refund checks received or call from the tax office requesting documentation of tax withheld.