A Visit to the Tax Office

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I've read the Trilogy mainy times, my favorite read of all times.

More of a Sherlock Holmes / Conan Doyle fan myself but love HHGTTG…

 

Obviously when I quit my (20 year) IT role  I signed off… SLATFATF 

 

 

[NanLaew]

On 6/27/2024 at 6:21 AM, Ben Zioner said:

It is the opposite, it has always been taxable if you transferred in 2023, the year or earning. This hasn't change but many people have been evading tax by ignoring this rule. 

 

Anyhow look at this nice picture.

 

 

 

From that excellent graphic, it's fairly accurate to say that the hand-to-mouth long-timers are up for a shock.

[NanLaew]

On 7/18/2024 at 3:13 AM, Mike Lister said:

 

Your understanding of what I understand, needs to better understood!

What's that timeless adage from the teacher to the less ardent student again?

 

"I can explain things for you, but I can't comprehend them for you."

[NanLaew]

On 7/16/2024 at 10:45 AM, Mike Lister said:

I predict a waning interest in tax threads is imminent.

 

But only until someone either leaves the monkhood, crawls out from under a rock, or sobers up and reads about 'new' income tax rules and creates another brand-new "hot ticket" thread like nobody's heard of it before.

 

Are you going to grab a few days off in between?

[NoDisplayName]

On 7/15/2024 at 1:12 PM, NoDisplayName said:

***UPDATE v4***

 

Received a text message from "e-revenue" yesterday.

 

"Refund check was mailed to [pink ID number] 13/07"

 

***UPDATE v5***

 

Letter from tax office arrived today with my full 2023 refund, having paid the 200 baht late fee online when filing.

 

Checks are no longer sent out.  I received a receipt that I must take to Krung Thai Bank to have the money deposited in my account via PromptPay.

 

But first I must set up my Bangkok Bank account with PromptPay, which might be possible online.........

[NoDisplayName]

Yes, PromptPay can be set up on the Bangkok Bank website, only takes a few minutes.  But in my case only with my mobile phone number, not with pink ID card.

 

There is a *note on the set up page that only Thai citizen ID numbers can be used.

 

BKK Bank doesn't have my pink ID number yet, so unknown if that would change.

[NoDisplayName]

***UPDATE v6***

 

Went away for a week, upon return had TWO letters from TRD requesting further documentation.  They wanted bank withholding statements for 2021 and 2022, and my passport.  I had 30 days to respond or forfeit my refund.

 

Note I was able to file 2021-2022-2023 online without bank forms, and have already received a refund letter for 2023 with no letter requesting additional docs.

 

I would blow off the two refunds, but as I had business at Bangkok Bank anyway, went ahead and got the withholding statements (no charge).  Fun fact!  At this branch withholding statements are only provided for fixed accounts.  Not available for savings accounts.

 

At the same time I tried to get my pink ID number added to my accounts to stop tax withholding.  This small branch of BKK Bank said no can. 

 

Also tried to set my PromptPay savings account to use my pink ID number, but no can.  Only Thai ID numbers allowed, at least at this branch.  I'm stuck with using my mobile number which I had already set up online.

 

Then we walked the two blocks to our local Krung Thai Bank branch.  Refund CHECKS are no longer issued.  Refund letters require a visit to KT Bank and offer two options:  PromptPay or deposit into KT account.  Sucks to be a foreigner, because.....

 

KT Bank will only transfer refunds via PromptPay linked to a Thai ID card.  Pink Id and mobile phone no can!  Only option is deposit into KT account.  So we opened an account using pink ID and yellow book, and had the refund for 2023 deposited immediately.

 

Returning home, logged onto the TRD website e-Refund page indicated on the info request letters:

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-efiling-web/authen/MTA2  Log in using pink ID (or TIN) with same password used when filing online.

 

Logged in and uploaded a scan of my passport, and a jpeg of the BKK Bank tax withholding for 2021/2022 (both on same page as same fixed account).  This was entered under the 2022 filing.  The 2021 filing did not offer the option to upload documents.

 

Documents were accepted and status icon showed under review.  Next day logged in and status had changed to in process.

 

What next?  Wait to see if refund letters for 2021 and 2022 are issued without late fees being charged as with 2023.

 

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/20/2024 at 3:56 AM, NanLaew said:

 

From that excellent graphic, it's fairly accurate to say that the hand-to-mouth long-timers are up for a shock.

As I have said in the past, "a little out of a little can be a lot to some people." 

[Sigmund]

Time to shut down all those bank accounts in Thailand and just have one account with no more then 10'000 and only use it to send money to pay for the community fees in the residential plot area. Done with all this racked in Thailand and harassment against foreigners.

[KhunHeineken]

11 hours ago, Sigmund said:

Time to shut down all those bank accounts in Thailand and just have one account with no more then 10'000 and only use it to send money to pay for the community fees in the residential plot area. Done with all this racked in Thailand and harassment against foreigners.

Not really. 

 

One can have all the money and bank accounts their want.  They can have multiple properties, a couple of cars etc etc, just don't stay inside Thailand for more than 179 days a calendar year. 

 

Find a second home in a neighboring country for the other 6 months of the year. 

[NanLaew]

11 hours ago, Sigmund said:

Time to shut down all those bank accounts in Thailand and just have one account with no more then 10'000 and only use it to send money to pay for the community fees in the residential plot area. Done with all this racked in Thailand and harassment against foreigners.

 

What harassment?

[NanLaew]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Not really. 

 

One can have all the money and bank accounts their want.  They can have multiple properties, a couple of cars etc etc, just don't stay inside Thailand for more than 179 days a calendar year. 

 

Find a second home in a neighboring country for the other 6 months of the year. 

 

The 6-month split between some countries may need a bit of careful management if BOTH 'long-stay' countries have the 180-day residency rule. Easier to include at least one other venue, and it doesn't need to be 'long-stay' either. For example, a long weekend in Langkawi, an extended layover in some European transit country like Finland or a week in Vietnam as a tourist may be all that's needed.

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:51 AM, NanLaew said:

 

The 6-month split between some countries may need a bit of careful management if BOTH 'long-stay' countries have the 180-day residency rule. Easier to include at least one other venue, and it doesn't need to be 'long-stay' either. For example, a long weekend in Langkawi, an extended layover in some European transit country like Finland or a week in Vietnam as a tourist may be all that's needed.

Correct.  For me, I go to the Singapore F1 every year.  Depending what happens with this policy next year, I will use that trip to be under 180 days in Thailand, and under 180 days in the other country I chose, should I decide Thailand is no longer worth it to me to remain a resident for tax purposes. 

 

For others, it could be exploring some cities and towns in a neighboring country for the correct amount of days to remain a non tax resident of both countries. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:30 AM, NanLaew said:

 

What harassment?

Financial harassment.  The cash cow is getting milked dry. 

[chiang mai]

On 8/26/2024 at 10:51 AM, NanLaew said:

 

The 6-month split between some countries may need a bit of careful management if BOTH 'long-stay' countries have the 180-day residency rule. Easier to include at least one other venue, and it doesn't need to be 'long-stay' either. For example, a long weekend in Langkawi, an extended layover in some European transit country like Finland or a week in Vietnam as a tourist may be all that's needed.

I'm pretty sure you can't escape tax by not being tax residency in any country throughout every year, you will be regarded as tax resident somewhere and typically that is your country of domicile. The 180 or 183 day rule is not the be all/end all of tax, governments tend to fall back on domicile or substantial presence tests to determine your status if the 180/183 day tests fail.

[KhunHeineken]

55 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm pretty sure you can't escape tax by not being tax residency in any country throughout every year, you will be regarded as tax resident somewhere and typically that is your country of domicile. The 180 or 183 day rule is not the be all/end all of tax, governments tend to fall back on domicile or substantial presence tests to determine your status if the 180/183 day tests fail.

Whilst I tend to agree, many governments changed to a physical presence and time based tax residency criteria, mainly because many people were taking the p*ss out of the domiciled criteria. 

 

In a way, governments can't have it both ways, at law, mainly because, in general, the physical presence and time based model repeals the domiciled criteria. 

 

If one does not have a "domicile" in any country. Eg. own a property / have a "base" and that individual "moves around" in order to not be deemed a resident for tax purposes of any country, that's where the world wide income would seek to tax this individual, but it's not so easy for any particular country / government to deem them a resident for taxation purposes. 

 

 

That said,  I do take your point.  The day is coming when you will not be able to escape paying tax, somewhere. 

[topt]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

If one does not have a "domicile" in any country.

Not sure if you are deliberately ignoring domicile of birth? HMRC (UK)  will definitely make that difficult to change especially for IHT purposes and not sure your second para is true in that specific instance - but may well be elsewhere..

 

However kudos (whether you take or not ....) as one of your few posts that I agree with especially your last statement 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, topt said:

Not sure if you are deliberately ignoring domicile of birth? HMRC (UK)  will definitely make that difficult to change especially for IHT purposes and not sure your second para is true in that specific instance - but may well be elsewhere..

 

However kudos (whether you take or not ....) as one of your few posts that I agree with especially your last statement 

I'm Australian, not British. 

 

In relation to tax residency, where one is "domiciled" has nothing to do with citizenship, but has to do with where one has a "home" including utility bills, club memberships, community ties etc etc. 

 

I would find it hard to believe a Brit could say they are "domiciled" in the UK, just because they have a British passport, but haven't been back to the UK for several years, but hey, it's your story, do tell. 

[topt]

17 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'm Australian, not British. 

 

In relation to tax residency, where one is "domiciled" has nothing to do with citizenship, but has to do with where one has a "home" including utility bills, club memberships, community ties etc etc. 

 

I would find it hard to believe a Brit could say they are "domiciled" in the UK, just because they have a British passport, but haven't been back to the UK for several years, but hey, it's your story, do tell. 

You had to go and spoil it didn't you. I was trying to compliment you but you had to go and be snarky.

I know you are Australian as you have made it very clear on many threads. I gave you a specific example re UK and said 

20 hours ago, topt said:

but may well be elsewhere

When you have wasted your time looking up the domicile rules for HMRC feel free to come back and in the meantime have a nice time.......

PS - and there have been previous discussions on TV/AN prior to the tax fest on the problems of changing UK domicile.......

[wordchild]

20 hours ago, topt said:

Not sure if you are deliberately ignoring domicile of birth? HMRC (UK)  will definitely make that difficult to change especially for IHT purposes and not sure your second para is true in that specific instance - but may well be elsewhere..

 

However kudos (whether you take or not ....) as one of your few posts that I agree with especially your last statement 

It looks like the UK,s  ancient domicile laws will change fundamentally from next year (likely to be replaced by some kind of long term residency test). eg under the new proposal, if you have not been resident ,in the UK, for any of the last 10years then you will classed as non dom  (as long as you remain non res), binning the old rules about where your dad happened to be born etc etc

HMRC has a discussion paper out on this at the moment.

However better to wait and see what the new government does when we see actual legislation.

[topt]

2 minutes ago, wordchild said:

However better to wait and see what the new government does when we see actual legislation.

yes thanks I saw that it was being looked at but at this point it hasn't changed. If it does it potentially could make a rather large difference to affected peoples potential IHT bills........

[sometimewoodworker]

18 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I would find it hard to believe a Brit could say they are "domiciled" in the UK, just because they have a British passport, but haven't been back to the UK for several years,

HMRC states

Quote

Condition B is met when you’ve been UK resident for at least 15 of the 20 tax years immediately before the relevant tax year.

So if your several years is more than 5, that is one way to be non-dom

 

However

Quote

Condition A

To meet this condition you must:

• be born in the UK
• have the UK as your domicile of origin
• be resident in the UK for 2017 to 2018, or later years

Then you are domiciled.

 

HMRC has many more conditions that make you lose your Non-Dom status even if you live permanently overseas.

My tax accountant in the U.K. makes it clear that just regular or long visits could make me domiciled again.

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

HMRC states

So if your several years is more than 5, that is one way to be non-dom

 

However

Then you are domiciled.

 

HMRC has many more conditions that make you lose your Non-Dom status even if you live permanently overseas.

My tax accountant in the U.K. makes it clear that just regular or long visits could make me domiciled again.

I'm interested in the words " tax years immediately before the relevant tax year."  

 

So, you are saying, an expat living in Thailand, who hasn't been back to the UK for years, is still "domiciled" in the UK. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'm interested in the words " tax years immediately before the relevant tax year."  

 

So, you are saying, an expat living in Thailand, who hasn't been back to the UK for years, is still "domiciled" in the UK. 

Correct

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, topt said:

You had to go and spoil it didn't you. I was trying to compliment you but you had to go and be snarky.

I know you are Australian as you have made it very clear on many threads. I gave you a specific example re UK and said 

When you have wasted your time looking up the domicile rules for HMRC feel free to come back and in the meantime have a nice time.......

PS - and there have been previous discussions on TV/AN prior to the tax fest on the problems of changing UK domicile.......

I Googled it and the below link appeared at the top of the first page.

 

Seems pretty clear to me.  If you are a Brit living in Thailand, you are "domiciled" in Thailand. 

 

What argument could you make to tax authorities in the UK that you are "domiciled" in the UK, despite not returning to the UK in years? 

 

https://www.litrg.org.uk/international/residence-and-domicile/domicile

 

"You will generally be domiciled in the country where you consider your ‘roots’ are, or the country which you consider is your long-term, permanent home. Domicile is not the same as nationality, citizenship or residence."

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Correct

Another one from the first page of a Google search. 

 

It uses the term "non-dom."  Never heard that one before. 

 

Article dated 9th July 2024. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-32216346

 

"Non-dom" describes a UK resident whose permanent home - or domicile - for tax purposes is outside the UK.

 

It refers to a person's tax status, and has nothing to do with their nationality, citizenship or resident status - although it can be affected by these factors."

 

This next criteria would categorize a high percentage of UK expats in Thailand - "Domicile of choice - if you are over 16 and choose to leave the UK and live indefinitely in another country"

 

 

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I Googled it and the below link appeared at the top of the first page.

 

Seems pretty clear to me.  If you are a Brit living in Thailand, you are "domiciled" in Thailand. 

 

What argument could you make to tax authorities in the UK that you are "domiciled" in the UK, despite not returning to the UK in years? 

 

https://www.litrg.org.uk/international/residence-and-domicile/domicile

 

"You will generally be domiciled in the country where you consider your ‘roots’ are, or the country which you consider is your long-term, permanent home. Domicile is not the same as nationality, citizenship or residence."

You don't understand whatsoever, despite your renowned googling skills!

 

You can't change UK domicile just by moving to another country for 10 years, most requests for domicile change aren't determined until after death for estate purposes. Lord Denning, Master of the Roles, famously said, "domicile is not a raincoat that you can put on and take off at will".

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Another one from the first page of a Google search. 

 

It uses the term "non-dom."  Never heard that one before. 

 

Article dated 9th July 2024. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-32216346

 

"Non-dom" describes a UK resident whose permanent home - or domicile - for tax purposes is outside the UK.

 

It refers to a person's tax status, and has nothing to do with their nationality, citizenship or resident status - although it can be affected by these factors."

 

This next criteria would categorize a high percentage of UK expats in Thailand - "Domicile of choice - if you are over 16 and choose to leave the UK and live indefinitely in another country"

 

 

Thank goodness you;re still on my ignore list, you'd argue black was white and night was day!

[sometimewoodworker]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What argument could you make to tax authorities in the UK that you are "domiciled" in the UK, despite not returning to the UK in years? 

Oh you poor logically correct fool.

 

HMRC Wants as much tax from everyone as the possibly can, to nobody’s surprise.

 

The rules for a British born citizen (or naturalised citizen) who has family and or property and or investments and or income in the U.K. make becoming a Non-Dom as difficult as HMRC possibly can. Make it The rules are so complex that you probably need expert advice to first become Non-Dom and then to stay Non-Dom. As I recall it was over 8 years before I qualified and that was seen as remarkably short.

 

I am not going to summarise the situations than can revoke your Non-Dom status or those that enable you to become Non-Dom because they are much more difficult than the really simple Thai tax laws and you know how difficult everyone thinks they are.

 

Is it possible to become a U.K. Non-Dom? Yes it is, I am. However for many, no it is not, because they don’t want to sever the ties and virtually totally divorce them selves from the U.K. that is required.

[KhunHeineken]

44 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You don't understand whatsoever, despite your renowned googling skills!

 

You can't change UK domicile just by moving to another country for 10 years, most requests for domicile change aren't determined until after death for estate purposes. Lord Denning, Master of the Roles, famously said, "domicile is not a raincoat that you can put on and take off at will".

I am Australian, not British, so I have no experience in UK tax law, and couldn't care less.  

 

A member suggested I research, so I done a quick Google.

 

The links and quotes are from the front page of a Google search.

 

See the words, "It may have changed if you moved abroad and you don't intend to return?"  Does this not describe most retired UK expats?

 

How many retired Brits have lived in Thailand for more than 6 years? 

 

  https://www.brooksonone.co.uk/knowledge-centre/limited-company/personal-tax/self-assessment/working-overseas/

 

 

Working out your domicile

Your domicile’s usually the country your father considered his permanent home when you were born. It may have changed if you moved abroad and you don’t intend to return.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/deemed-domicile-rules

 

Domicile status

Losing deemed domicile status

You can lose deemed domiciled status under Condition B, if you leave the UK and there are at least 6 tax years as a non UK resident in the 20 tax years before the relevant tax year.

If you acquire a domicile of choice outside of the UK

If you were born in the UK and have a UK domicile of origin at birth, you can acquire a domicile of choice outside the UK under common law, if you’ve resided in another country or law territory with the intention of staying there permanently.