A Visit to the Tax Office

[KhunHeineken]

32 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Is it possible to become a U.K. Non-Dom? Yes it is, I am. However for many, no it is not, because they don’t want to sever the ties and virtually totally divorce them selves from the U.K. that is required.

Sure, but under the "domicile of choice" couldn't tax authorities in the UK argue that by buying a condo in Thailand, being in a relationship with a Thai national, owning a vehicle in Thailand, having Thai bank accounts, a long term Thai visa, utility bills, community ties etc etc, and not having returned to the UK for several years, that person can be "deemed" a non-dom are in fact domiciled in Thailand?  Serious question. 

[KhunHeineken]

50 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Thank goodness you;re still on my ignore list, you'd argue black was white and night was day!

How did you manage to read my post if I am on your ignore list? 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

How did you manage to read my post if I am on your ignore list? 

 

Being on an ignore list doesn't make the persons posts invisible, it only prevents notifications that they've posted more drivel. Here, read this and go away:

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm23020

Edited September 2 by chiang mai

[topt]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Serious question. 

Doubtful.

 

Why are you continuing to to argue about something you have no personal experience of and where one poster has successfully (amazingly to me) managed to pull it off and in the process obviously knows a lot more about the ins and outs than your random internet searches.....

Just to remind you this was specifically about domicile and the UK as opposed to any other country.

 

If you are really that interested you could create a specific thread for it rather than clutter up yet another tax thread.............

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Sure, but under the "domicile of choice" couldn't tax authorities in the UK argue that by buying a condo in Thailand, being in a relationship with a Thai national, owning a vehicle in Thailand, having Thai bank accounts, a long term Thai visa, utility bills, community ties etc etc, and not having returned to the UK for several years, that person can be "deemed" a non-dom are in fact domiciled in Thailand?  Serious question. 

From HMRC

 

Quote

 

The laws of the UK make it clear that domicile is not easily changed, and so it is unlikely that an adult‘s operative domicile will alter unless the individual makes profound and extensive changes to his or her lifestyle, habits and intentions. A change in an individual’s operative domicile is never to be assumed, it always has to be demonstrated by reference to the facts.

There are numerous and extensive changes required to become Non-Dom and merely “buying a condo in Thailand, being in a relationship with a Thai national, owning a vehicle in Thailand, having Thai bank accounts, a long term Thai visa, utility bills, community ties etc etc, and not having returned to the UK for several years‘ are not nearly enough by themselves.

 

As I said it was at least 8 years, possibly longer, before I was able to become  Non-Dom.

 

There are a number of different statuses Non-Dom is probably the most difficult to achieve and easiest to loose.

Edited September 2 by sometimewoodworker

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

From HMRC

 

There are numerous and extensive changes required to become Non-Dom and merely “buying a condo in Thailand, being in a relationship with a Thai national, owning a vehicle in Thailand, having Thai bank accounts, a long term Thai visa, utility bills, community ties etc etc, and not having returned to the UK for several years‘ are not nearly enough by themselves.

 

As I said it was at least 8 years, possibly longer, before I was able to become  Non-Dom.

 

There are a number of different statuses Non-Dom is probably the most difficult to achieve and easiest to loose.

Interesting. 

It seems that, in effect,  the UK comes de facto quite close to the American model of worldwide taxation where you cannot escape the IRS (as  long as you keep your passport,.

Other countries mentioned in this thread, which nominally have residence-based taxation, but use weird legal constructions to make it very difficult to become a non-resident, are France, Germany and Belgium.

 

The Thai law is very clear and honest,  in comparison. 180 days. Simple.

 

[wordchild]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Sure, but under the "domicile of choice" couldn't tax authorities in the UK argue that by buying a condo in Thailand, being in a relationship with a Thai national, owning a vehicle in Thailand, having Thai bank accounts, a long term Thai visa, utility bills, community ties etc etc, and not having returned to the UK for several years, that person can be "deemed" a non-dom are in fact domiciled in Thailand?  Serious question. 

One way or another the (UK)  definition of what makes someone domiciled or not domiciled is going to change fundamentally,  most likely starting from the new 2025 tax year.
Almost certainly the UK is going to move to a simpler definition of domicile , based on an individual’s  history of residency ( or non residency) in the country, and not before time!

Debating the old rules seems pretty pointless.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

Interesting. 

It seems that, in effect,  the UK comes de facto quite close to the American model of worldwide taxation where you cannot escape the IRS (as  long as you keep your passport,.

Other countries mentioned in this thread, which nominally have residence-based taxation, but use weird legal constructions to make it very difficult to become a non-resident, are France, Germany and Belgium.

 

The Thai law is very clear and honest,  in comparison. 180 days. Simple.

 

I don't think the UK is like US as if you're not Tax Resident in the UK then they have no interest in any income you earn outside of the UK and if you have no income coming from the UK then they have no interest in you at all. 

 

Although more complicated (UK uses number of days in the UK + how long you've been out of the UK + the number of "Family Ties" you have to the UK) at it's core it's not that much different from Thailand in that  >182 days in the UK you are automatically Tax Resident & <16 days you're automatically non Tax Resident - Between those it depends on how long you have been Non-Tax Resident & how many "Family Ties" you have. 

 

Flowchart showing how UK Statutory Residency Test works...

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/01/statutory-residence-test-flowchart.pdf 

Edited September 2 by Mike Teavee

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

I don't think the UK is like US as if you're not Tax Resident in the UK then they have no interest in any income you earn outside of the UK and if you have no income coming from the UK then they have no interest in you at all. 

 

Although more complicated (UK uses number of days in the UK + how long you've been out of the UK + the number of "Family Ties" you have to the UK) at it's core it's not that much different from Thailand in that  >182 days in the UK you are automatically Tax Resident & <16 days you're automatically non Tax Resident - Between those it depends on how long you have been Non-Tax Resident & how many "Family Ties" you have. 

 

Flowchart showing how UK Statutory Residency Test works...

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/01/statutory-residence-test-flowchart.pdf 

Did you notice the rather ominous wording at the bottom 

Quote

This flowchart and the notes overleaf are intended to summarise how the Statutory Residence Test determines residence status in the UK, However the legislation

reside ine sits in containe ever of agestrial nature

comprises over 60 pages of rules and definitions. HMRC have also issued over 100 pages of guidance. Accordingly the information contained herein is of a general nature and is not intended to address the circumstances of any particular individual or entity.

 

[CFCol]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:29 AM, Lacessit said:

Very interesting the Thai pink ID card doubles as a tax card, thank you.

Myself and my wife visited TRD on Samui back in July. Both of us produced our pink cards,( it specifically states on your card" This is not an ID card") and were issued with TIN cards. So different office ,different procedure.

[jesimps]

Has anyone who doesn't work here managed to get a TIN from the Jomtien Tax Office? I visited a few months back but they refused point blank to issue one. My Thai wife explained that I needed to be registered for assessment purposes, but was told to pay tax to my home country. Which I do.

[BKKKevin]

So I now seem to have a clear understanding of savings & domicile…

Can we now discuss what the meaning of wife is?… and is their a limit on the number of minor wives for deduction?… Can one prorate for short time arrangements?

Edited September 3 by BKKKevin

[Mike Teavee]

21 minutes ago, jesimps said:

Has anyone who doesn't work here managed to get a TIN from the Jomtien Tax Office? I visited a few months back but they refused point blank to issue one. My Thai wife explained that I needed to be registered for assessment purposes, but was told to pay tax to my home country. Which I do.

I live in Wongamat so when I went to the Jomtien Tax Office I was told to go to the one in Naklua who were reluctant at first to give me a TIN so I told them (lied) that I was looking to purchase a couple of properties & would need one to pay property taxes & tax on the rental income. 

 

Of course, when I went to file my 1st return at Naklua, they tell me I have to do it at Jomtien 😕 

 

Edited September 3 by Mike Teavee

[Ook]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:28 PM, NoDisplayName said:

Had the wife call the tax office yesterday, need to update my TIN card (moved from Bangkok to Korat) and have questions about 2023 tax.  Visited the district tax office this afternoon (12:30, no waiting).

 

TIN.  Since I have a pink ID card, I do NOT need a TIN or TIN card.  I am to use the number on my pink ID card when filing taxes.  That requires having my ID card number registered in the system, something the local office could not do.  Office lady called the Korat office to have my number registered, and the old TIN invalidated.  I "should" be able to log onto the tax system within a week to file taxes.  I was allowed to keep the old TIN card, if ever needed as documentation.

 

2023 TAX.  I brought most of the documentation needed to file tax if needed, with the exception of a bank interest statement.  Thai dividend receipts (1300 baht), details of Thai bank interest received (4900 baht), remitted funds (310,000) baht.  She asked if the remitted funds were pension or salary.  We replied from personal savings.  Office lady said we don't need to file, and explained the new remittance rules.  We asked if any documentation was needed to show origin of funds.  Not necessary, self determination.  No mention was made of deductions or exemptions as the remitted funds were ruled not assessable.

 

Office lady said I could file to have tax paid refunded, but that would require a 3-hour+ trip to the bank for an interest statement, another hour or so at the tax office to file in person, pay a late filing fee, net result:  ~600 baht.  Pass.

 

We asked about filing online, and what documents would we need to upload.  Office lady said no upload required, just fill in the tax form.  No dividend or interest statements, no foreign bank/transfer documents.  Enter amount of remittance and check "savings" as source of funds.  We would be contacted in the event more documents required.

 

We're good for this year at this tax office with this official, and don't expect any problems next year.  Self-determination of funds remitted is acceptable so far, at least for the amounts received.  We'll simply keep remittances in 2024 to my account below 320,000 baht to be safe. 

 

We're thinking about filing a 2023 return online next week to test the system.  See if we can file without uploading documents, see if we can set up direct deposit of refund check.  If no bank interest statement needed (I have all the numbers in the passbooks), might as well try.

 

New remittance rules are manageable for now, although bringing in US$20K to purchase a car may require a bit more effort.  As long as they don't move to enact worldwide taxation, tax residency should not be a major issue.

 

YKMV

 

Dear NodisplayName,

 

Thanks for the detailed review of applying for a new TIN.

I'm more or less in a similar situation moving TIN from one province to another. Have also a Pink ID Card now and wonder how I should register my Pink ID card number as my TIN. Do you have more info on which office I need to visit? Is this the RDB in the province I'm moving to? Ot the Amphur / Tessakan, where they issue the Pink Id Card etc?

FYI, my old TIN is registered in another province and I'm moving now to Bangkok... 

Btw, would you be able to apply with this Pink ID card at the Thai RDB for a Thai tax resident certificate, which can be used to show other tax jurisdictions that I'm officially a tax resident in Thailand? I've heard from other OP's that it seems cumbersome to obtain such certificate.

 

Thanks again for the advice.

Best regards,

Ook

 

 

 

On 6/25/2024 at 7:28 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, jesimps said:

Has anyone who doesn't work here managed to get a TIN from the Jomtien Tax Office? I visited a few months back but they refused point blank to issue one. My Thai wife explained that I needed to be registered for assessment purposes, but was told to pay tax to my home country. Which I do.

 

As to other posters without a pink ID being denied a TIN, it appears some offices require a valid reason to issue one.  Tell them you have Thai income (dividends and interest) with tax withheld.  You need a TIN in order to claim a refund.

[NoDisplayName]

48 minutes ago, Ook said:

I'm more or less in a similar situation moving TIN from one province to another. Have also a Pink ID Card now and wonder how I should register my Pink ID card number as my TIN. Do you have more info on which office I need to visit? Is this the RDB in the province I'm moving to? Ot the Amphur / Tessakan, where they issue the Pink Id Card etc?

FYI, my old TIN is registered in another province and I'm moving now to Bangkok... 

Btw, would you be able to apply with this Pink ID card at the Thai RDB for a Thai tax resident certificate, which can be used to show other tax jurisdictions that I'm officially a tax resident in Thailand? I've heard from other OP's that it seems cumbersome to obtain such certificate.

 

 

 

As explained at MY local tax office, the pink ID card number is your tax ID number.  You use that number when filing tax on paper returns.  To file ONLINE, that number must be entered into the system and activated first.  Local offices can not do this.  Must be done by the provincial main office, which (in my case) did not require MY physical presence.  A phone call from the local office where I now reside got it done.

 

If you speak the language, or have an interpreter, 1161 help line is very efficient.

 

Before the visit, neither my old TIN nor pink ID number was recognized by the online system.  I can now log on to submit tax filings and check return status using my pink ID number.

 

I have no knowledge of the tax certificate.

 

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, BKKKevin said:

… and is their a limit on the number of minor wives for deduction?

 

Wives under 16 years of age must shirley qualify for the child care deduction.🚼

[BKKKevin]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Wives under 16 years of age must shirley qualify for the child care deduction.🚼

I was thinking more of a Mia Noi being deductible... 😉

Edited September 3 by BKKKevin

[chang50]

3 hours ago, jesimps said:

Has anyone who doesn't work here managed to get a TIN from the Jomtien Tax Office? I visited a few months back but they refused point blank to issue one. My Thai wife explained that I needed to be registered for assessment purposes, but was told to pay tax to my home country. Which I do.

I tried at Jomtien in April and was told no TIN for you and to come back at the end of the year with a bank statement for 2024 which I intend to do and take it from there.Seems like a complete shambles to be honest.

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:15 PM, wordchild said:

One way or another the (UK)  definition of what makes someone domiciled or not domiciled is going to change fundamentally,  most likely starting from the new 2025 tax year.
Almost certainly the UK is going to move to a simpler definition of domicile , based on an individual’s  history of residency ( or non residency) in the country, and not before time!

Debating the old rules seems pretty pointless.

 

 

Australia has already proposed similar changes.  Only a matter of time before they are passed into legislation.

 

Australia's current tax residency laws are 90 years old, and no longer fit for purpose.

 

They will be changed to a physical presence and time based model, similar to Thailand, and many other countries. 

[Seeall]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:37 AM, CharlieKo said:

 

I think you will find you would need to remit over 600,000 baht before you would pay any taxes here in Thailand. As after deduction of all allowances the balance would fall below a taxable amount.   

Yes what is it with these amounts Where is it written down in the system the actual amount That comes under the radar this would be very interesting to know if anybody knows not bar talk really written down somewhere With Thai stamp government blah blah blah

[Seeall]

And why do I ask this well think about it regardless of everything you want to have the maximum come in under the radar that you can whether you use it or not or for whatever you're gonna use it for whatever every year of course so the maximum minimum whatever would be very good to know

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:40 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

From HMRC

 

There are numerous and extensive changes required to become Non-Dom and merely “buying a condo in Thailand, being in a relationship with a Thai national, owning a vehicle in Thailand, having Thai bank accounts, a long term Thai visa, utility bills, community ties etc etc, and not having returned to the UK for several years‘ are not nearly enough by themselves.

 

As I said it was at least 8 years, possibly longer, before I was able to become  Non-Dom.

 

There are a number of different statuses Non-Dom is probably the most difficult to achieve and easiest to loose.

Interesting to me how the legal definition of "domiciled" in the UK is different to the legal definition of "domiciled" in Australian tax law. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:55 AM, topt said:

Doubtful.

 

Why are you continuing to to argue about something you have no personal experience of and where one poster has successfully (amazingly to me) managed to pull it off and in the process obviously knows a lot more about the ins and outs than your random internet searches.....

Just to remind you this was specifically about domicile and the UK as opposed to any other country.

 

If you are really that interested you could create a specific thread for it rather than clutter up yet another tax thread.............

Nah, no need for a new thread about it, just because you are trolling.

 

It was just interesting to me that the legal definition of "domiciled" was different to the legal definition of "domiciled" under Australian tax residency law. 

 

There are people of all nationalities reading this thread, and many other threads, about the tax situation facing us all in 2025. 

 

As another member said, the UK's legal definition of "domiciled" day's are numbered, as they are in Australia.

 

Australia is certainly heading towards a physical presence and time based tax residency model, being a "bright line test" of 183 days inside / outside of Australia. 

 

The UK may not be far behind. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/2/2024 at 7:44 AM, chiang mai said:

Being on an ignore list doesn't make the persons posts invisible

Oh my, what will you do?

 

I mean, you feel the need to impart your superior western tax knowledge on Thai tax policy, yet, refuse to accept any other point of view. 

 

My advice is to ignore every member, and disable notifications, that way, you and yourself can always be "right."  

[CharlieKo]

15 hours ago, Seeall said:

Yes what is it with these amounts Where is it written down in the system the actual amount That comes under the radar this would be very interesting to know if anybody knows not bar talk really written down somewhere With Thai stamp government blah blah blah

There is no under the radar amount. It's the accumulation of funds over the year that count. If you bring a minimum of 120,000.00 Baht you would not pay taxes, but can you live on that through 1 year? What you are suggesting is Tax avoidance. The RD don't do tax avoidance so you won't find a minimum amount under the radar, stamped signed or sealed by the RD.

 

So with the allowances the RD give, if you bring in 600,000.00 Baht a year you can reduce this to an amount less than 120,000.00 Baht, so you wouldn't pay any tax. So that would be your max amount. Bring over that amount and you would start to pay tax.