60-day visa exemptions are now unlimited at land borders

[Bvor]

22 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

That reduces down to "no stated limit and up to the immigration officer discretion" 

Yes my thoughts exactly. "Unlimited" simply doesn't fit the bill. A tourist staying in LOS continually via "unlimited" 60 day VE entries is nonsensical even by TIT standards.

 

 

  

[DrJack54]

Off topic post removed 

[DrJack54]

Repeated off topic post removed.

 

[JensenZ]

12 minutes ago, Bvor said:

Yes my thoughts exactly. "Unlimited" simply doesn't fit the bill. A tourist staying in LOS continually via "unlimited" 60 day VE entries is nonsensical even by TIT standards.

 

It should be noted that there have been lengthy periods in the past where unlimited visa-free entries were allowed. The only problem some of us had was filling up the passport too quickly with 1-page Cambodia visa stickers. It all depends on the current government and who's in charge of immigration policies.

[DrJack54]

40 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

I think at land borders, they'll just follow the general Guidelines for VE entries issued in 2014, which have been followed for arrivals by air, which is down to the IO's discretion.

This is exactly what will occur.

 

[JensenZ]

43 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

I think at land borders, they'll just follow the general Guidelines for VE entries issued in 2014, which have been followed for arrivals by air, which is down to the IO's discretion.

Rather than "the IO's discretion", it will be a general policy followed by all IOs working at any particular checkpoint. They work together as a team.

[DrJack54]

Some off topic posts and replies removed 

[Rob Browder]

13 hours ago, Bvor said:

Wait and see. They have done so pre 15 july 2024 using what has been described in Pattaya Mail article as "absolute discretion". Maybe i've lost the plot but what I can't get my head around is how if somebody gets to stay in Thailand for say 360 days a year on "unlimited "VE's (4 x 60+30) can be classified to be a tourist ...........particularly when staying 180 days or more one is deemed to be a resident for tax purposes.

In the recent video, the MFA guy says the new policy for visa-exempt entry can be for purposes other than 'strictly tourism'.   Primarily, he talked about the DTV, but did a rabbit-trail on the new 60-day exempt, also:

As to how someone can "be a tourist" here beyond a certain time - why not?  They could define a number of days, and publish it in the Gazette, if they wanted.  Otherwise - not working, goes to beaches, etc (i.e. "spending money" into Thailand) 

There is nothing saying a tourist cannot pay taxes - as we all do, with VAT, all the time.  I have not seen any law/rule in the Gazette on this.

As well, there is no legal reason given to immigration to deny entry on "being a tourist too long" - only for illegal-working or otherwise engaged in illegal-activity, or not having the required 20K baht, hotel-booking, and flight-out within the stay-period.  Thai immigration is restricted to very specific reasons for denial - in an attempt (futile, at some entry-points) to prevent graft / agent-scams to let people in.

[Liquorice]

4 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

As to how someone can "be a tourist" here beyond a certain time - why not? 

Generally, if you're staying longer than 180 days in a Country throughout the period of a year, that you're not a national of or have permanent residency then you're not classed as a visitor, but as residing there. 

 

4 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

They could define a number of days, and publish it in the Gazette, if they wanted.  Otherwise - not working, goes to beaches, etc (i.e. "spending money" into Thailand) 

They do define a number of days for each type of entry, with or without a visa, they just don't want to specify and limit the number of entries, rather leaving that decision to the discretion of the entry clearance officer.

 

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

There is nothing saying a tourist cannot pay taxes - as we all do, with VAT, all the time.  I have not seen any law/rule in the Gazette on this.

VAT is applied to the goods, not the person, and completely irrelevant to this topic.

 

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

As well, there is no legal reason given to immigration to deny entry on "being a tourist too long" - only for illegal-working or otherwise engaged in illegal-activity, or not having the required 20K baht, hotel-booking, and flight-out within the stay-period.  Thai immigration is restricted to very specific reasons for denial

Immigration officer's discretion - if they feel your reason for entry is solely for the purpose of extending your stay, which is considered from the tourist point of view to be longer than necessary and in line with the purpose permitted, they can deny entry.

 

 

[Bvor]

7 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

As well, there is no legal reason given to immigration to deny entry on "being a tourist too long"

If my memory serves me well the "other than strictly tourism" notion was for a limited work period requiring Dept of Labour approval. IO rightly or wrongly have been known to use the "too long" claim in their absolute discretion on many occasions. I doubt very much that any tourists will get thru 360 days annually on the back of "unlimited" VE's ....but who knows for sure what pans out in LOS.

[Jack1988]

1 hour ago, Bvor said:

I doubt very much that any tourists will get thru 360 days annually on the back of "unlimited" VE's ....but who knows for sure what pans out in LOS.

No problem, can come back to Thailand anytime 

Edited July 29 by Jack1988

[Bvor]

4 minutes ago, Jack1988 said:

No problem, can come back to Thailand anytime 

.............but need to bribe IO to create "no problem" situation. 

[Jack1988]

7 minutes ago, Bvor said:

.............but need to bribe IO to create "no problem" situation. 

In fact there are agencies that offer border run service and deal with immigration officers

[Jack1988]

As i said last time, folks here can't accept that right now you can stay here more easily without apply for this stressful immigrant visas and have to deal with immigration all the time in person and have to deal with a thai wife that always need your money

[Bvor]

4 minutes ago, Jack1988 said:

 and deal with immigration officers

yeah ok, we see these deals in a different light. I understand that some "tourists" and others have circumstances that need to rely on agent/IO deals.......TIT just pay. 

[Rob Browder]

7 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Generally, if you're staying longer than 180 days in a Country throughout the period of a year, that you're not a national of or have permanent residency then you're not classed as a visitor, but as residing there. 

 

They do define a number of days for each type of entry, with or without a visa, they just don't want to specify and limit the number of entries, rather leaving that decision to the discretion of the entry clearance officer.

 

VAT is applied to the goods, not the person, and completely irrelevant to this topic.

 

Immigration officer's discretion - if they feel your reason for entry is solely for the purpose of extending your stay, which is considered from the tourist point of view to be longer than necessary and in line with the purpose permitted, they can deny entry.

I am not aware of any Thai law about 180 days currently in existence regarding tourism.
VAT is just as relevant as any other form of tax.  Neither are relevant to immigration.
In Thai law, Immigration can only deny entry for very specific reasons.  None of those reasons involve "been here as a tourist too long."
They did not define "how many days out" because that would allow people to avoid paying their agents, and simply stay out the proscribed period.
 

Edited July 29 by Rob Browder

[Liquorice]

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

In Thai law, Immigration can only deny entry for very specific reasons.  None of those reasons involve "been here as a tourist too long."

Staying too long as a tourist could raise suspicion of your working illegally, and that is a reason for refusal.

 

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

They did not define "how many days out" because that would allow people to avoid paying their agents, and simply stay out the proscribed period.

I stand to be corrected, but in the video interview it was stated you cannot return the same day and must stay one night out of Thailand.

[Bvor]

32 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

None of those reasons involve "been here as a tourist too long."

Maybe so, but in practice it has been reported that occasionally IO makes the arbitrary "too long" claim and then applies the insufficient  funds reason inappropiately. It has also been reported that on other accasions Thai law is misappropriated by IO's at various Immigration Offices...... I wouldn't be hanging my hat on IO strictly adhering to Thai law. 

 

[visarunner]

On 7/28/2024 at 8:04 PM, JensenZ said:

The officials at the border checkpoints don't follow the UK Embassy guidelines. You might notice another requirement they mention i.e. "required at the port of entry to have proof of planned travel...". They never ask for this at the Banpuggard or Ban Laem border checkpoints (I can't speak for other checkpoints). I spoke to 2 other visa-runners last Thursday at Banpuggard, and they have both been using visa-free entries for over a year, and that's before the latest 60-day change.

 

There seems to be an air of confidence at Banpuggard that there is no limit, but they will follow their own rules. There's no need to stress as we're good for 6 months at least. Contact your agent that organises visa runs and ask what's going on at the border. I think the worst that can happen is they start warning people that they cannot enter again with visa-free stamps. They would put a warning stamp in your passport that you've entered too many times on visa-free stamps and that you should get a visa next time... but oblige that one last time.

Certain nationalities didn't have limitations , others were clearly  under the 1 n 2 rule. Ban Pakkard is not giving warning stamps, they follow the rule and certain countries will not be stamped at all.

[treetops]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:55 AM, Pattaya57 said:

You went and ruined a good factual post by yet again banging on about your unfounded opinion that 60 days visa exempt won't last.

 

It was described in The Thaiger as temporary when it was at the sign-off stage (although I can't vouch for their accuracy).

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/tourists-from-93-countries-can-now-come-to-thailand-visa-free

 

[Rob Browder]

2 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Staying too long as a tourist could raise suspicion of your working illegally, and that is a reason for refusal.

 

I stand to be corrected, but in the video interview it was stated you cannot return the same day and must stay one night out of Thailand.

That is not the reason Thai immigration is putting in denied-entry stamps in passports, because it is absurd that someone from a Western country would work here at an under-the-table job - 10+hour days for 6 days, to earn the same as McDonalds-pay for one day back home.  Instead, they were stamp-pretending the person didn't have money.  We had multiple examples of this posted here.

 

Meanwhile, those coming from neighboring countries, where illegal Thai pay is higher than where they come from, got unlimited border-crossings.

 

I did notice the one-night-out rule the MFA noted for the DTV.  That is not unreasonable.

[AreYouGerman]

5 hours ago, Bvor said:

 I wouldn't be hanging my hat on IO strictly adhering to Thai law. 

 

 

Thankfully.

[JensenZ]

5 hours ago, visarunner said:

Certain nationalities didn't have limitations , others were clearly  under the 1 n 2 rule. Ban Pakkard is not giving warning stamps, they follow the rule and certain countries will not be stamped at all.

I did not say they are giving out warning stamps at Banpuggard. I suggested that they may do it in the future if or when they decide to limit entries, as they have in the past.

 

We can revisit this discussion in 6 months after a lot of people will be trying to get a 3rd 60-day stamp.

 

  

Edited July 29 by JensenZ

[bigt3116]

6 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

because it is absurd that someone from a Western country would work here at an under-the-table job - 10+hour days for 6 days, to earn the same as McDonalds-pay for one day back home.

 

The islands are full of those people!

 

Plus all the illegally working 'digital nomads' , as in "I post to youtube and tiktok".

 

[Rob Browder]

9 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

 

The islands are full of those people!

 

Plus all the illegally working 'digital nomads' , as in "I post to youtube and tiktok".

 

What jobs do "those people" do on the islands?  Competing with the illegal-working Burmese - really?

 

As to those with remote incomes - that's great for Thailand - money just flowing in from other countries, funding Thai salaries and VAT taxes. 

 

And now, they can use the DTV Visa to avoid all the silly running-around for extensions, visa-runs, and spending chunks of their incomes in other countries, just to avoid problems with Thai immigration.   Every 1000 / 1500 Baht for a Cambodian / Lao visa, was money not spent in Thailand, plus the days/months out.

[BobDobbs]

As someone who's bouncer on East Asia for 35 years. Lived in Thailand on TR visas extension stamps for probably half that time no less than three months a year.

 

I don't believe is unlimited for all those individuals doing border hops. It's my expatriate sense at these people are still going to get questioned and get hassled.

[Bvor]

12 minutes ago, BobDobbs said:

I don't believe is unlimited for all those individuals doing border hops. It's my expatriate sense at these people are still going to get questioned and get hassled.

I tend to agree but note In the DTV video interview with Chris Parker the MFA guy highlighted a shift from the 30 day VE tourist purpose to now include other purposes eg visiting relatives. The MFA guy has previously stated the 60 day VE is unlimited and not strictly limited to tourism............will IO now have to question the purpose of VE entry?   

[Jack1988]

15 hours ago, BobDobbs said:

As someone who's bouncer on East Asia for 35 years. Lived in Thailand on TR visas extension stamps for probably half that time no less than three months a year.

 

I don't believe is unlimited for all those individuals doing border hops. It's my expatriate sense at these people are still going to get questioned and get hassled.

Are you sure? On 2017 I stayed in Thailand for about 8 months only with 2 tourist visas, 2 extensions and one border bounce plus extension 

Edited July 31 by Jack1988

[BobDobbs]

5 hours ago, Jack1988 said:

Are you sure? On 2017 I stayed in Thailand for about 8 months only with 2 tourist visas, 2 extensions and one border bounce plus extension 

 

I'm fairly certain.

 

It is also a belief of mine that Thailand gives those first stepping into the country about a year to play around. If you've done the right thing in procured visas you probably have a bit longer.

 

We are both discussing what was so there is that to remember.

 

In the end it is my belief that no matter what is legal technically is flavor of the day - this may not translate into forever stay in Thailand. Rather, it's a bit of food scrap for the carp.

 

I developed a personal strategy over 15 years that had me caught out only once (in Penang) - and that was only due to the fact that I couldn't get online and access to my Thai bank account.

 

Some swear by flying in, others by land. Some this, others that. Some get visas and others beg extensions. Whatever you perceive works for you.

 

Getting back to the point..IOs are essentially charged with keeping out grifters. Extended stays on exempt imo will end up being as problematic in the future as it has been in the past. With so many more visas to the IO will say you have more options now than ever before. True. The only problem is that many of these Pattaya and CM grifters will not qualify for any of the new visas as they never qualified for any of the old visas.

 

It's just my opinion and I could be totally wrong.

 

My opinion - it's wholy wrong especially given how popular Thailand is as a vacation and holiday country that it doesn't spell out clearly the amount of time that individuals can spend in the country and under what terms. It is clearly to their advantage not to do so. The people that get caught out are those at the bottom end of things. Thailand is not the least bit concerned with them and therefore probably feels no need for clarity. Let them waste their money and their time it only benefits Thailand in the long run.

 

Visas aside that 60 days exempt stamp can go back to 30 overnight and will perhaps as soon November... or as the economy is in such a funk they might let it ride until Thailand pulls out of its recession. No idea.

Edited August 1 by BobDobbs

[Liquorice]

5 hours ago, Jack1988 said:

On 2017 I stayed in Thailand for about 8 months only with 2 tourist visas, 2 extensions and one border bounce plus extension 

Entering with a valid tourist visa is different from entering visa exempt.

You only entered visa exempt at a land border once in 2017.