2 minutes ago, transam said:

Will you be back here if confirmed a religious nut......?  🤭

only to make excuses for him and to continue hurling words like "racist" at anybody he disagrees with,   Like they usually do

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agreed....  but in the UK there is unfortunately a growing anti-Islam sentiment.... Why is that ?...   

 

Is a certain amount of Islamaphobia simply down to racism and bigotry? or, are there 'other' elements and reasons lending to these growing tensions.

 

I consider myself a balanced individual, however, I allowed my bias to surface when first hearing the reports of these abhorrent murders with my first suspicions being of a muslim male murdering in the name of Islam - Quite clearly I was wrong... nevertheless, I didn't think it was a Chinese or Indian Male carrying out such atrocities. 

 

We are of course often led by our bias, often incorrectly so, however, that bias is often born of a reality, unfair when generalising, perhaps....  nevertheless, not wholly inaccurate either.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, agree mostly, prejudices are normal. However, having grown up in Southport (and my parents have lived in Banks for the past 30 years) I didn't make the same assumption as you did.

It may turn out he was a brainwashed jihadist and was shouting "death to the infidels" as he was doing it. But it may turn out he was just a kid with severe mental issues. Or maybe he was abused. Until we know we shouldn't publically speculate, and certainly people in positions of influence should absolutely not (Farage is a disgrace of a human) - see how the mob were easily whipped up to go and attack a mosque. People can get hurt or killed by public speculation, and it is especially heinous when the "information" was intentionally wrong (like his Muslim name - already stated as untrue by the police) or that he was "under watch". No one knows that.

Edited July 31, 20241 yr by josephbloggs

Just now, josephbloggs said:

If that makes you happy. But people making stuff up before it is even known is just disgraceful. And people like you lapping it up and it definitely incited violence - the mobs attacked a mosque because it has been (wrongly) posted on right wing sites that he had a funny Muslim name.

I would rather show some respect to the people who are suffering and let justice take its course.

 

An agreeable statement - however, why is there so much suspicion of such atrocities being carried out in the name of Islam in the first place ???? 

 

Were the authorities clumsy in not providing greater information in the first place?... Holding back information led to the void that was filled by social media and the spread of inaccurate rumours.

 

 

 

I also agree with your sentiment that 'people like you [me], lapped it up'....  as soon as the name Ali Al-Sh..(something) was spread, I completely bought it - as I already had my suspicions... those suspicions based on a bias fuelled by numerous recent events....   

 

I was wrong of course...  But why did I and many others like me who'd claim they are not racist and open minded individuals fall for the social medial lies ??? - are we actually racists / Islamaphobes and should place ourselves under greater 'self-check' before commenting on forums ???... perhaps, as I for one commented on social media (here) without any proof or knowledge official information... 

 

I'll hold my hand up and say I was wrong - but, I'll also hold up my hand and ask the question of myself, why did I so easily fall for the social media lies ??....   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, josephbloggs said:

Yes, agree mostly, prejudices are normal. However, having grown up in Southport (and my parents have lived in Banks for the past 30 years) I didn't make the same assumption as you did.

It may turn out he was a brainwashed jihadist and was shout "death to the infidels" as he was doing it. But it may turn out he was just a kid with severe mental issues. Until we know we shouldn't publically speculate, and certainly people in positions of influence should absolutely not (Farage is a disgrace of a human) - see how the mob were easily whipped up to go and attack a mosque. People can get hurt or killed by public speculation, and it is especially heinous when the "information" was intentionally wrong (like his Muslim name - already stated as untrue by the police) or that he was "under watch". No one knows that.

 

Valid points and well argued comments to a subject that can so easily get heated. 

 

Though, I disagree that we should not 'publicly speculate'... the point of forums is to discuss subjects...  Perhaps as you have pointed out we each have a greater responsibility to be more careful with our speculation... 

 

... however, I would then argue that pandora's box has been opened and I would question why such speculation took the path it did. 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

only to make excuses for him and to continue hurling words like "racist" at anybody he disagrees with,   Like they usually do

What a childish comment. Why would I make excuses for him? Are you accusing me of wanting to protect a child killer?? When he attacked children in a street five minutes from the one I grew up in??? Wind your neck in, you are making yourself look ridiculous.

I hope he is confined for the rest of his life.

And believe it or not I don't call people racists if I disagree with them - again another childish comment. I do call racists racist though.

19 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

I always thought that speaking a lot and saying nothing was a trait peculiar to Thais but the UK media along with our pathetic politicians are doing a good job of convincing me otherwise.  Hours and hours of public statements and hollow platitudes but never once mentioning the attacker. How bizarre is that 

 

Coulter's Law:

The more time elapses between a crime's reporting and the (here in @MerseyPolice  custody) suspect's physical description being made public, the greater the guarantee that the perpetrator cannot be White.

     — @AnnCoulter

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Pathetic defense of vandals and hooligans. 

                Pathetic response from somebody who did not read or was unable to understand what I meant . Or more likely chose to deliberately misinterpret what I wrote, to provide himself with an excuse to make such a pathetic and inaccurate reply.

                After all ,   Highlighting the  gross mismanagement of the situation by the authorities involved and the contribution that incompetence made to the disorder,  is not defending or excusing  the actions of the rioting mob.  Only a complete idiot would think anything of the sort wouldn't they

1 minute ago, BigStar said:

 

Coulter's Law:

The more time elapses between a crime's reporting and the (here in @MerseyPolice  custody) suspect's physical description being made public, the greater the guarantee that the perpetrator cannot be White.

     — @AnnCoulter

Paranoid nonsense (no surprise given the author of the quote). ANY minor accused of a crime is protected under UK law until after the trial - and then only if a judge decides it is in the public interest to know their names and personal information.

A white minor, a black minor, a Christian one, a Muslim one, all minors. It is the law and it is there for a good reason.

13 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'll hold my hand up and say I was wrong - but, I'll also hold up my hand and ask the question of myself, why did I so easily fall for the social media lies ??.... 

For a simple analogy  consider snakes and our attitude to them, most people are to one degree or another scared of snakes,  most people exercise caution , most people generally assume , incorrectly, that all snakes are venomous even though we know that is not true. Even if assured that a particular snake is non venomous by an expert most people would still prefer to believe that it was and will act accordingly

      Of course some people love snakes , can't keep their hands off them , even raise them as pets, however the snakes don't differentiate  when the time comes to sink their teeth in  

         

11 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Paranoid nonsense (no surprise given the author of the quote). ANY minor accused of a crime is protected under UK law until after the trial - and then only if a judge decides it is in the public interest to know their names and personal information.

A white minor, a black minor, a Christian one, a Muslim one, all minors. It is the law and it is there for a good reason.

Change the record , you have been repeating this all day, you seem obsessed,  I think you have been watching too many box sets

Edited July 31, 20241 yr by Bday Prang

12 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Paranoid nonsense (no surprise given the author of the quote). ANY minor accused of a crime is protected under UK law until after the trial - and then only if a judge decides it is in the public interest to know their names and personal information.

A white minor, a black minor, a Christian one, a Muslim one, all minors. It is the law and it is there for a good reason.

The quote from "Anne Coulter"  was not specifically about minors, It is also factually correct

22 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

And believe it or not I don't call people racists if I disagree with them - again another childish comment.

You called me a racist because I criticised an overly lenient british legal system, despite me making no references to race,  

As per the General Register Office official register of births in England and Wales no male with the surname of  El-Shakati, Elshakati, Elshaqati,  El-shaqati, El-Shakaty, Elshakaty, Elshaqaty, and  El-shaqaty  has ever been born  between the years 1998 and 2022.  Not one.

20 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Change the record , you have been repeating this all day, you seem obsessed,  I think you have been watching too many box sets

Next time someone else comes and says it is only because he is Muslim/black that police don't release his name or personal details, then I'll probably say it again. I can't stand to see myths propagated especially when they can result in harm. His name was posted as Muslim sounding, it went around, and a mosque was attacked. It wasn't true. 

People now whipping each other up by saying the police are protecting him because he is Muslim and it wouldn't be the case if he was white. That is wrong and I will point it out. Sorry if it bothers you, or sorry if the truth annoys you that white people are not treated more harshly.

Edited July 31, 20241 yr by josephbloggs

Why or why has’t the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary come out and say the perpetrator of this terrible crime is not a Muslim and Immigrant ?  

16 minutes ago, Tiger1980 said:

Why or why has’t the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary come out and say the perpetrator of this terrible crime is not a Muslim and Immigrant ?  

 

Agreed... . Given the already heightened tensions...  an announcement stating...

 

"This was 17 year old Christian male born in the UK to Rwandan parents, this is not a religion related act of violence, due to the age of the attacker the name cannot be announced - this is the only information that can be legally released at this moment".... 

 

Or words to that effect - rather than the Police stating  "the incident is not currently being treated as terror-related"... which opens the door to people thinking 'it could be terror related if more information is found out"... which then lends to further suspicion... 

 

Its obviously incredibly difficult to handle such a situation publicly, but officials are supposed to be trained for this and they failed to 'set the correct temperature' with their clumsy announcements. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Its obviously incredibly difficult to handle such a situation publicly,

It really isn't rocket science and should be well within the capabilities of those tasked with such things,  However the quota system used by most public bodies when recruiting staff does not generally provide the best people for the job .  The whole incident could be recorded and used as a "how not to " guide to maintaining public order.    

Edited July 31, 20241 yr by Bday Prang

2 hours ago, Tiger1980 said:

Why or why has’t the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary come out and say the perpetrator of this terrible crime is not a Muslim and Immigrant ?  

just a news report would have  sufficed but its too late now,  , no need for either of those fools to involve themselves any further.

There are probably "guidelines" advising against mentioning muslims in connection with events like this, except to deny their involvement of course 

Edited July 31, 20241 yr by Bday Prang

15 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

His parents came from Rwanda.  He was born in Wales.

That is STILL speculation, anyway where his parents came from should not effect HIS actions. 

15 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

The 'Good people of Southport' did not throw stones, burn police cars and assault police officers. 

 

Reported, thugs from 'outside of Southport' turned up, beer cans in hand and started to get violent as the vigil drew to a close...  ironically, outsiders (outsider to Southport) violently protesting about outsiders (immigrants).

 

 

IMO The speculation in social media was fuelled by the recent distrust in the Police to 'protect' the identities of minorities for fear of the very same reaction that occurred anyway.

 

 

Agree - the advice not to jump to conclusions while avoiding the release of any information itself led to people 'reading between the lines' and was incendiary...   the distrust of the police lead to no one believing the "this was not terrorism related" line... 

 

As the Poster was just 17 years old facts were not presented the public... But, the released facts were initially "a man born in Cardiff and from Banks"....   seemed to obviously mask the fact that he was born to immigrant parents...  

 

"A 17 year male born in Cardiff to Christian Rwandan Parents and now living in Banks, Lancashire" - would have perhaps subdued some of the initial speculation that this was an attack in the name of Islam. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well said, if his parents came from Rwanda, they quite possibly witnessed some horrific stuff during the genocide. People seem to forget what they went through. And just another thought, I heard he also tried to rape one girl  . These thugs aka Nazis went to Southport to incense a riot for their own means, probably in the hope of loot

 

17 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Have any muslim "community leaders" actually condemned the original incident ?   They are all out today whinging about a bit of trouble outside their mosque and crying racism of course

Why what have the Muslim community leaders got to do with the original incident, or any Muslim ??

4 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Why what have the Muslim community leaders got to do with the original incident, or any Muslim ??

Yes, the Muslim communities are not part of the UK, so why should they care about what happens in the UK.  They only get concerned about what happens in the Middle East.

 

Not being directly involved did not stop Royalty, Politicians and leaders in other countries expressing concern and sympathy, but Muslims are special.

9 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

Yes, the Muslim communities are not part of the UK, so why should they care about what happens in the UK.  They only get concerned about what happens in the Middle East.

 

Not being directly involved did not stop Royalty, Politicians and leaders in other countries expressing concern and sympathy, but Muslims are special.

You are missing my point completely, there is no prove that a Muslim committed this horrendous crime, in fact more likely a Christian. 

1 hour ago, brianthainess said:

You are missing my point completely, there is no prove that a Muslim committed this horrendous crime, in fact more likely a Christian. 

That is my point, and it went over your head .... completely.  Why does there need to be a link to Muslims for the Muslim community to express sympathy.  Many other groups have expressed their concerns without any direct involvement, but the Muslim community are isolated and self centered and only comment on Islamic issues.  

On 7/30/2024 at 7:05 PM, josephbloggs said:

he is under 18 he is legally a minor and minors are not named until either they turn 18 or their trials are complete

As usual a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and your self claimed legal expertise appears to have let you down,,   It is still being claimed he is 17 despite looking twice that age, The trial is not complete   YET...he has just been named, as Axel Rudakubana  announce on the news just now as breaking news.  Reporting restrictions have been lifted. He was reported to have been smirking in court.  

Rumours are rife that is he was a convert to islam,   it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited August 1, 20241 yr by Bday Prang

25 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

As usual a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and your self claimed legal expertise appears to have let you down,,   It is still being claimed he is 17 despite looking twice that age, The trial is not complete   YET...he has just been named, as Axel Rudakubana  announce on the news just now as breaking news.  Reporting restrictions have been lifted. He was reported to have been smirking in court.  

Rumours are rife that is he was a convert to islam,   it wouldn't surprise me.

Ah, so not Ali ali Shakati as claimed on here by some and posted around the net by racists, morons and thugs.

It is six days away form his 18th birthday (although not according to you, the facial expert) and the judge has taken the almost unprecedented step of ordering the ban on anonymity to be lifted. The judge said this unusual step was to stop the spread of misinformation that is causing violence across the country. The EDL and racist thugs are rioting across the country based on deliberate misinformation that he was a Muslim called Ali ali Shakati, that he was an illegal immigrant, an asylum seeker etc etc.

In this case it makes sense but no doubt the morons will go out tonight and attack some more mosques anyway  -that'll help.

As I said many times before, it is wrong to speculate based on nothing, even worse to spread deliberately misleading information that can cause people to get hurt, and that we should wait for justice to take its course which it is now doing, and wait for the facts to come out.

Whether he smirked or not he deserves to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

 

Edited August 1, 20241 yr by josephbloggs

No, he actually deserves to be hung by his neck until dead.  But he'll spend 15-20 years in prison and then be quietly freed.

On 7/30/2024 at 2:53 AM, AnotherOneHere said:

According to the first reports it was a Muslim refugee that was refused a stay because of his criminal record and was about to be deported. 

That didn’t age well did it.

 

But as you rightly say, you’re another one here, there’s plenty of others like you, eagerly peddling baseless speculation.

 

While others of the same biased mindset take to the streets, attacking a totally innocent community, rioting and violently assaulting the police.

 

But it’s not just you, this thread has all the usual suspects dripping with all the usual ignorance and it’s bedfellow hate.

 

None having the sense, let alone the decency to wait for facts to be released by the police and judicial system.

 

 

Axel Muganwa Rudakubana, 17, is charged with three counts of murder,

10 of attempted murder, and one count of possessing a bladed article.

 

Hope his put down soon.

 

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That didn’t age well did it.

 

But as you rightly say, you’re another one here, there’s plenty of others like you, eagerly peddling baseless speculation.

 

While others of the same biased mindset take to the streets, attacking a totally innocent community, rioting and violently assaulting the police.

 

But it’s not just you, this thread has all the usual suspects dripping with all the usual ignorance and it’s bedfellow hate.

 

None having the sense, let alone the decency to wait for facts to be released by the police and judicial system.

 

 

          Well if anybody had speculated that the perpetrator was a white English guy with connections to the English Defence League I'm sure you would have been equally outraged 

           Whether you personally like it or not   many people are not in favour  of the current immigration situation that exists in the UK.  Whilst there were trouble makers involved the vast majority of people there were not. 

            People in the UK are reaching the limit of their patience, they are understandably angry at the changes society is undergoing, changes that nobody voted for , changes that seriously affect their quality of life. But what they are starting to get really worked up about is people , just like you , who will scream bigot and racist at anybody who doesn't share your views, or  raises what they consider to be legitimate concerns.  

             You need to accept that other peoples views are just as valid and important as yours