5 minutes ago, J Branche said:

So, some bored members have wasted 3 pages of comments predicting Thai Logic.  Why? Those who that have been consistently successful are not Known by Name.

 

What is Known is Revenue Department follows info and orders available on the website.  They have a number and date like order 161 2023 or order 162 2023. This is helpful, useful, verifiable info to share.

 

The Double Tax Treaty is usually in digital PDF Form.

There are Page Numbers for documents which are sometimes  different than the PDF page number so provide Both.  The section and paragraph and "Quote the Tax Agreement", then your supporting interpretation.

 

STOP, WASTING the limit time we have left posting info, comments, beliefs that have little value and are Not helpful to many others.

 

DEBATE Out of the comments section, DIRECTLY with someone you want to discuss your  opinions or beliefs that have No BENEFIT to others who read to be educated, informed, prepared and seek guidance and help.

Nobody forces you or anyone else to read tax threads, if you don't enjoy them, suggest you try a different topic. It's not your role to tell other members what to read or write in posts.

Edited August 25, 20241 yr by chiang mai

On 8/24/2024 at 12:05 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

That is the practice and message given by virtually all TRD officials.

 

However it is not the actual wording of the regulations. The wording of the regulations requires a tax return if your income 

That nobody expects or wants a tax return unless you should pay tax or are due a refund is just the practice not the law.

That is correct - the advice I was given by a Thai tax company was that TRD did not want people lodging tax returns who have no taxes to pay and they said that was the current TRD 'lodgement process'.  Not in the Laws as you say, but TRD has made it clear to people and companies that they dont want zero payment tax returns lodged. They do not have the staff or systems or resources to be able to process and file and store another 30-40+ million tax returns for zero payments. 

17 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Once again, I don't foresee much chasing up at all. If I had to guess at how this will move forward, the model would look something like this:

Phase I - current and maybe next one or two tax years - TRD ramps up staffing, comes up to speed on DTA's. The number of people filing tax returns for the first time increases markedly. TRD steps up investigations of high value remittances and audits more foreigners.

Phase II - Organic growth of the tax net reaches a plateau, tax clearance certificates are mentioned increasingly, this probably causes more people to file returns for the first time.

Phase III - Linkage in place between visa's and tax.

Good answer - and although correct or probably, many will just ignore it and stick their heads in the sand.

IMO it is not as bad as some think it will be - but ignoring it all is not a good strategy.

 

Many people here think in terms of a legal breach (speeding/no licence, etc etc), but that is not how Tax laws work.

You do not get away with it if not caught that year - it is not like speeding - they can and will go back 7-10 years.

If they 'target' you for whatever reason - they will probably start with a question 'please why you no give tax return'.

Most likely the banks will have told them you remitted X million baht into Thailand in 202X.

If it was income and you tried to hide it, then maybe a good plan is to 'get out' immediately.

If stopped at border say 'what TRD letter? never got anything! and then go get a tax lawyer. 

 

TRD can investigate going back many years - and they will have all your remittances into Thailand - you must prove it was not income - they dont have to prove it was.  The total fines and fees could be huge if you should have paid taxes - and maybe even jail. You will then definitely not be allowed to leave the country until you have paid - and if you try to leave and get caught, then you will be in jail until all paid.

 

I reckon they will quietly look for those Expats bringing in millions of baht and who have not lodged a tax return. 

They will be checking bank records against Passport Numbers and then looking for lodged tax returns. 

Those on Pensions and other small amounts of savings etc., IMO will be left alone.

But it would be wise to keep all your records of all the money you have remitted into Thailand from 2024 onwards.

Just ignoring it and saying it will never happen might be right - but if that is wrong, then things could get very bad.

But like I said - A Pension plus small savings IMO will be fine - just keep the records.

 

On 8/24/2024 at 1:50 AM, chiang mai said:

 

 

On 8/24/2024 at 9:36 AM, chiang mai said:

That's not enforcement, that's being fined for non-compliance. Enforcement is where the person has to comply, otherwise the penalties are severe, which is why I used the example of the tax clearance certificate.....if you don't file, you don't get a visa and you have to leave, that sort of thing.

Not in my understanding of the term. Enforcement can be any measure taken by authorities to ensure that people comply with established rules, regulations or societal norms.

 

Fining people for not complying with 90 day reports absolutely constitutes an enforcement measure, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also, enforcement doesn't require that penalties be severe, only that penalties be applied.

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Yes indeed, but the foreigners don't understand how it all works, the locals do. Plus foreigners are at a disadvantage because of language, culture, expectations and reputation as ATM's.

And dont forget DTAs - they are something the local Thai taxpayers and the vast majority of TRD employees have no idea about.  As posted by someone months ago, they went into and asked their local TRD Office Manager, and were told the DTAs were only for claiming tax credits. That is patently false - DTAs have two options - Credits and Exemptions.  Trying to explain to Somchai in the Province TRD Office that your DTA means they cannot tax something, is not going to be easy - as things stand now.  There has been ZERO training in Provincial TRD Offices as of last month - nothing about the new rule change (they are still waiting too) and zero about the DTAs for foreigners. 

 

Perhaps TRD is going to give a massive information dump in Nov/December - but maybe not.

I think they are going to try to enforce the '12 month rule' removal first - that will keep them busy enough.

But maybe Thaksin and all the other wealthy Thais with investments overseas are going to 'advise' the new PM to tell the TRD to drop implementation for a while - who knows.

 

25 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good answer - and although correct or probably, many will just ignore it and stick their heads in the sand.

IMO it is not as bad as some think it will be - but ignoring it all is not a good strategy.

 

Many people here think in terms of a legal breach (speeding/no licence, etc etc), but that is not how Tax laws work.

You do not get away with it if not caught that year - it is not like speeding - they can and will go back 7-10 years.

If they 'target' you for whatever reason - they will probably start with a question 'please why you no give tax return'.

Most likely the banks will have told them you remitted X million baht into Thailand in 202X.

If it was income and you tried to hide it, then maybe a good plan is to 'get out' immediately.

If stopped at border say 'what TRD letter? never got anything! and then go get a tax lawyer. 

 

TRD can investigate going back many years - and they will have all your remittances into Thailand - you must prove it was not income - they dont have to prove it was.  The total fines and fees could be huge if you should have paid taxes - and maybe even jail. You will then definitely not be allowed to leave the country until you have paid - and if you try to leave and get caught, then you will be in jail until all paid.

 

I reckon they will quietly look for those Expats bringing in millions of baht and who have not lodged a tax return. 

They will be checking bank records against Passport Numbers and then looking for lodged tax returns. 

Those on Pensions and other small amounts of savings etc., IMO will be left alone.

But it would be wise to keep all your records of all the money you have remitted into Thailand from 2024 onwards.

Just ignoring it and saying it will never happen might be right - but if that is wrong, then things could get very bad.

But like I said - A Pension plus small savings IMO will be fine - just keep the records.

 

There's a lot of truth in what you wrote, the problem is the mindset. Dealing with tax infractions is NOT like escaping police fines for driving yet that's the mindset many people seem to have. The easy and simple answer is to deal with matters up front and don't let the tax issue go unaddressed for a long time. For most people, the impact of taxes here will be either small or non-existent but you wont know that unless you do the numbers.

31 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

 

Not in my understanding of the term. Enforcement can be any measure taken by authorities to ensure that people comply with established rules, regulations or societal norms.

 

Fining people for not complying with 90 day reports absolutely constitutes an enforcement measure, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also, enforcement doesn't require that penalties be severe, only that penalties be applied.

Yes, technically you are correct, we already had the exchange earlier that the intent was to imply, "meaningful enforcement" rather than just the dictionary interpretation of the word.

11 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If there are readers out there who feel uncomfortable about hearing what the tax penalties can be (and you keep mentioning this for some reason)

  I keep mentioning what ?    You appear to be confused , I mentioned people feeling uncomfortble once , just once , and that was in response to a comment  you had made,   

You said ....". If that sort of extrapolation of information leaves some people feeling uncomfortable I have to wonder why.

 

I said ..... "People  being told by others that they are going to suffer either a heavy tax bill or some draconian punishment  are feeling uncomfortable , and you have to wonder why ?  

 

Do you  often find yourself prone to exaggeration ?   

 

 

2 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

  I keep mentioning what ?    You appear to be confused , I mentioned people feeling uncomfortble once , just once , and that was in response to a comment  you had made,   

You said ....". If that sort of extrapolation of information leaves some people feeling uncomfortable I have to wonder why.

 

I said ..... "People  being told by others that they are going to suffer either a heavy tax bill or some draconian punishment  are feeling uncomfortable , and you have to wonder why ?  

 

Do you  often find yourself prone to exaggeration ?   

 

 

No! But goodbye anyway.

On 8/23/2024 at 5:03 PM, Lorry said:

Some people who are now boasting that they will not pay taxes in Thailand may be in for a rude awakening (I mean those that are not just trolling).

 

@chiang mai is right in every respect. 

 

For practical purposes:

OP should check,  how much he could bring in tax-free. If it's 500,000, the next question would be, does he spend more than 500,000 in 6 months?

If so, how much more?  

If it's a trivial amount - see @ukrulespost.

If its millions,  I would definitely plan my trip in a way that I spend 179 days in Thailand,  not 181. Yes, they can and sometimes do count days from the immigration stamps. 

Just come in 3 months at a time.  Covers the EU winter for me. Even if I stayed 170 days for example, I would never spend 500 000 Baht !!!  I spend about 60 000 baht a month all included.

So I doubt that many people would be liable for tax if they own their own home already. 

34 minutes ago, geisha said:

Just come in 3 months at a time.  Covers the EU winter for me. Even if I stayed 170 days for example, I would never spend 500 000 Baht !!!  I spend about 60 000 baht a month all included.

So I doubt that many people would be liable for tax if they own their own home already. 

I am really not sure why you have bothered to post this?

 

You are not affected as less than 180 days.

What you spend is completely irrelevant to what anybody else may spend.

I can assure you that potentially "many people" spend far in excess of your figures whether they "own" their own home or not.

 

More than a few posters have already reported on changing their length of stay to be below 179 days. 

On 8/24/2024 at 9:24 AM, khunPer said:

Being snowbird from the Northern hemisphere should not enforce income tax, as a stay will be split over two tax-years.

It's not that they "should not enforce income tax" but it's up to every "snowbird" to ensure they do their winter escape to Thailand in a tax effective manner. 

 

Example:

 

It could be November and December in one year, and January, February, March and April the next year, or September, October, November, December one year, and only January and February the next year, give or take a few days either side, but no more than 179 days inside Thailand within a calendar year. 

 

Snowbirds should be fine. 

 

It's the snowbirds that are considering retiring to Thailand full time in the future that may need to reconsider their position. 

12 hours ago, Yumthai said:

As you mentioned earlier Tax rules apply the same way onto locals and foreigners.

Hence, there can't be two sets of tax enforcement. That would be blatant discrimination leading, in my opinion, to foreign exodus.

Out of 70 million Thai's, what percentage do you think "remit" funds into Thailand? 

 

Out of all the western foreigners living in Thailand, what percentage do you think "remit" funds? 

 

Most Thai's couldn't care less about "remitted" funds" as it does not effect them.   

 

 

On 8/24/2024 at 11:19 AM, Bday Prang said:

                 As is usual on this forum,  certain topics , provoke certain members , to promote themselves to the level of "expert"    Often based on whatever work they did back home  prior to their retirement. 

                Its not  surprising, when one considers the age of many who frequent this forum   its only to be expected that some retirees in the autumn years of their lives might feel the need to appear "relevant" once again, by dishing out  well meant  ( but inaccurate ) advice, 

                 Then there are  those who despite knowing even less about this subject,  delight in spreading  panic  and posting speculative , scaremongering, rubbish  with no basis in fact.

                  Finally lets not forget about the all dubious  "professionals"  only too keen to offer  their  totally unessessary services   for a generous fee  to those shaking in thier boots with fear

                   Astonishingly some people appear to have actually acted on the "advice" handed out by these charlatans, and  reports of people visiting tax offices, only to be sent packing, tells us all we need to know about how seriously the authorities are taking this matter. 

                    Would   anybody on this forum who  found themselves  in trouble with the police,  seriously  seek , take , or  act on any advice dished out by an annonymous sttanger claiming to be a  retired police officer from a western country ?    I sincerely hope not    

                   

I'm ex SAS, and not a tax professional, but still happy to discuss Thailand's tax policy. 

On 8/24/2024 at 7:34 AM, Jumbo1968 said:

The government haven’t even said they are going deduct the tax as yet.

You have to see what will happen to tax residents of Thailand AFTER the 31st March 2025 before you can make a comment like that.

On 8/24/2024 at 2:45 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

it makes me laugh how little people understand about this rule change and yet will argue and die on a hill about their opinions. 

As we all know, "Opinions are like a**holes, we've all got one." 

 

You have your opinion, I have my opinion, and everyone else has there opinion, and we are ALL entitled to our own opinion. 

 

What I am about to post is a "statement" and not an opinion. 

 

Statement start: "The Thai government announced these tax changes, so they must have a plan for them."  Statement end.

 

I have already commented on my statement in previous posts. 

 

I re-post my statement for the purpose of drawing attention to the FACT that anything and everything is possible come the 31st March 2025.  That could be anywhere from NOTHING, all the way to SCREWING foreigners.  

 

Time will tell.   

 

 

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

It's not that they "should not enforce income tax" but it's up to every "snowbird" to ensure they do their winter escape to Thailand in a tax effective manner. 

 

Example:

 

It could be November and December in one year, and January, February, March and April the next year, or September, October, November, December one year, and only January and February the next year, give or take a few days either side, but no more than 179 days inside Thailand within a calendar year. 

 

Snowbirds should be fine. 

 

It's the snowbirds that are considering retiring to Thailand full time in the future that may need to reconsider their position. 

There are quite a number of “ snowbirds as myself in my condo.Mostly Scandinavian. There’re well off  , golf everyday  and eat most evenings in the Scandinavian restaurant of Jomtien.  Very quiet people. I’m sure that if they knew they had to pay tax they might change destination. I defined will not pay any extra tax, I’ve been taxed to the hilt throughout my working life, it stops there. 

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

21 hours ago, Yumthai said:

As you mentioned earlier Tax rules apply the same way onto locals and foreigners.

Hence, there can't be two sets of tax enforcement. That would be blatant discrimination leading, in my opinion, to foreign exodus.

Out of 70 million Thai's, what percentage do you think "remit" funds into Thailand? 

 

Out of all the western foreigners living in Thailand, what percentage do you think "remit" funds? 

 

Most Thai's couldn't care less about "remitted" funds" as it does not effect them.

That was not my point, I was referring to tax enforcement.

 

Enforcing tax via Immigration on foreigners (easy task as we all have to pass through an Immigration check-point) vs enforcing tax on citizens via random audit would be pure discrimination.

 

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

What I am about to post is a "statement" and not an opinion. 

 

Statement start: "The Thai government announced these tax changes, so they must have a plan for them."  Statement end.

"The Thai government announced these tax changes...": This is a statement.

"... so they must have a plan for them.": This is your opinion.

54 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Enforcing tax via Immigration on foreigners (easy task as we all have to pass through an Immigration check-point) vs enforcing tax on citizens via random audit would be pure discrimination.

 

thai law or thai politicians don't care about discrimination.

thailand is full of discrimination ... also against the own people!

 

you can't do anything to change it; you just have to accept it as it is.

On 8/24/2024 at 9:04 PM, Bday Prang said:

People  being told by others that they are going to suffer either a heavy tax bill or some draconian punishment  are feeling uncomfortable , and you have to wonder why ?     I would have thought it was glaringly obvious

Again most of  what has been said by the various posters on this subject over the past 9 months has been totally  irrelevant ,  

If anyone doesn't believe that the Thai govt plans to have foreign residents pay taxes, then suggest you read the interview of 15 July, 2024 of Ms. Kulaya Tantitemit, the Thai Revenue Departmenbt head.  In that interview she says they will begin this taxation of remitted funds first of all during 2024 for remitted funds and then they are "discussing" the implementation of the worldside income taxation of "foreigners" who become tax residents in Thailand.  I realize that the govt has now changed, not sure if she will still be the head of the Revenuel Dept but it sure looks like expats are going to be targets for taxation depending of course on DTA's and assessable income.  Just saying - best of luck to all

11 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

thai law or thai politicians don't care about discrimination.

thailand is full of discrimination ... also against the own people!

 

you can't do anything to change it; you just have to accept it as it is.

Sure but effective discrimination on significant amounts of tax money will make people/foreign cash leave.  

On 8/23/2024 at 10:35 PM, Chivas said:

 

Playing devils advocate (and having proof of origin of  cash funds) if I or anybody depart the UK and bring say £5,000 hard cash into Thailand how on earth is that going to be taxed  if I stay 181 days

 

Am not advocating tax evasion as such. This legislation is so full of holes

 

As far as what is posted on Google, I believe you can bring up to $20K USD in without having to declare it, so there is one loop hole IMO.

 

$20,000 USD

 

What are the limits? According to Thailand's official rules, you can bring up to $20,000 USD or the currency equivalent into the country before you have to declare it to customs. If you're bringing Thai baht (THB) into the country rather than a foreign currency, the most you can carry with you is 500,000 THB.

On 8/23/2024 at 9:06 PM, DrJack54 said:

I suggest you know nothing regards how things will pan out in 2025.

Just puffing chest

Very poor response as usual when someone disagrees. No one knows what will happen but following whats already on the books for regs is far more accurate than your replies.

19 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I reckon they will quietly look for those Expats bringing in millions of baht and who have not lodged a tax return. 

They will be checking bank records against Passport Numbers and then looking for lodged tax returns. 

Those on Pensions and other small amounts of savings etc., IMO will be left alone.

At last, a statement which indicates a bit of common sense. In fact I've been beating this same drum ever since this topic came to prominence in September last year. An article in the Thai Enquirer which opened with the alarming and somewhat misleading headline: Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024.

 

However in the body of that article we find, if we care to look, the following:

 

 'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

Why that all important sentence has been ignored, even dismissed as irrelevant by some pseudo experts I have no idea, but from my point of view it is the one anchoring point in a whole sea of disinformation and I'm sticking with it unless and until some more informative and credible information comes along.

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

Edited August 26, 20241 yr by Moonlover

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

Enforcing tax via Immigration on foreigners (easy task as we all have to pass through an Immigration check-point) vs enforcing tax on citizens via random audit would be pure discrimination.

Thailand has no proper pathway to permanent residency for foreigners.  What does that tell you? 

 

Dual pricing has been in Thailand for decades.  Yes, it's discrimination.  Do you think they care? 

 

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

"The Thai government announced these tax changes...": This is a statement.

"... so they must have a plan for them.": This is your opinion.

Big announcement to make without a plan, don't you think? 

8 hours ago, geisha said:

There are quite a number of “ snowbirds as myself in my condo.Mostly Scandinavian. There’re well off  , golf everyday  and eat most evenings in the Scandinavian restaurant of Jomtien.  Very quiet people. I’m sure that if they knew they had to pay tax they might change destination. I defined will not pay any extra tax, I’ve been taxed to the hilt throughout my working life, it stops there. 

I understand what you are saying, but in the near future, and that does not mean next month, most countries will go online with similar laws, and taxing world wide income. 

 

Basically, it's becoming more and more difficult to be a tax resident of "no where." 

 

Should they "change destination" it's only a matter of time before they face a similar issue elsewhere.  

45 minutes ago, Presnock said:

If anyone doesn't believe that the Thai govt plans to have foreign residents pay taxes, then suggest you read the interview of 15 July, 2024 of Ms. Kulaya Tantitemit, the Thai Revenue Departmenbt head.  In that interview she says they will begin this taxation of remitted funds first of all during 2024 for remitted funds and then they are "discussing" the implementation of the worldside income taxation of "foreigners" who become tax residents in Thailand.  I realize that the govt has now changed, not sure if she will still be the head of the Revenuel Dept but it sure looks like expats are going to be targets for taxation depending of course on DTA's and assessable income.  Just saying - best of luck to all

She may or may not remain as the head of the TRD, but the easy money that's just sitting there waiting to be tapped will still be there, no matter who is in charge, and it will be too tempting, and too easy, for whoever is in charge to walk away from it. 

1 hour ago, motdaeng said:

 

thai law or thai politicians don't care about discrimination.

thailand is full of discrimination ... also against the own people!

 

you can't do anything to change it; you just have to accept it as it is.

So true. 

 

One either accepts it, or leaves. 

 

At least with the Thai tax law you can do 179 days, basically 6 months a year inside Thailand, and have no tax residency issues.  The certainty of this is good for planning a strategy. 

49 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Sure but effective discrimination on significant amounts of tax money will make people/foreign cash leave.  

At the same time whilst it's generating a new revenue stream, which did not exist before. 

16 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

At last, a statement which indicates a bit of common sense. In fact I've been beating this same drum ever since this topic came to prominence in September last year. An article in the Thai Enquirer which opened with the alarming and somewhat misleading headline: Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024.

 

However in the body of that article we find, if we care to look, the following:

 

 'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

Why that all important sentence has been ignored, even dismissed as irrelevant by some pseudo experts I have no idea, but from my point of view it is the one anchoring point in a whole sea of disinformation and I'm sticking with it unless and until some more informative and credible information comes along.

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

Because the Thai Enquirer is not the best source of tax law information, the Thai Revenue Code or the Big 4 accountancy firms are..

Edited August 26, 20241 yr by chiang mai