Rising Political Extremism in East Germany Signals a Deepening Divide

[newbee2022]

On 8/30/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cameroni said:

 

More amusing drivel, good job. In fact East Germans themselves brought about unification, uniquely bringing down a political regime by peaceful protests. One could argue that East Germans, ie the ones marching on the streets and risking their lives were the ones who brought communism to an end.

 

Some of the very brightest and most able people in Germany come from East Germany, in fact it was sufficient to occupy the post of prime minister for many years.

 

But of course they will not be allowed to vote AfD because West Germany is a pseudo democracy where political parties do backroom deals to ostracize the AfD, and ensure the AfD is hobbled in every conceivable way. This includes the German secret service spying on AfD members and funding being withdrawn. No matter what happens the AfD will be unable to achieve anything. We saw the same in France when a right wing party threatened to win votes. The political establishment will find ways to stop it from happening. To say nothing of the abysmal and biased German media.

 

Democracy in Western Europe is nothing but a bad joke. I've not voted in years. Total waste of time. Far from being a "modern and dynamic" society Germany is one of the most backward nations, where internet is among the poorest in Europe and government bureucracy is still trying to catch up with digitalisation. The Greens, the SPD, Die Linke, they've all ensured Germany has become a basket case, and now, uniquely is the only country in Europe in actual recession.

 

 

I reckon many people would call you waste of space.

What hypocrisy to complain about everything but not doing anything to change. Voting is one right to exercise, in some countries it's a duty.

To hail a Nazi party is just calling for a dictatorship as it was formerly in East Germany. To wish those times with deportations during 3rd Reich to come back is intolerable. 👎

[Cameroni]

20 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

 

What hypocrisy to complain about everything but not doing anything to change. Voting is one right to exercise, in some countries it's a duty.

To hail a Nazi party is just calling for a dictatorship as it was formerly in East Germany. To wish those times with deportations during 3rd Reich to come back is intolerable. 👎

Total drivel. Many parties have tried to change things in Germany, with the net result that they were put on the surveillance list of the local bureau of Germany's domestic intelligence agency, had their funding withdrawn, were boycotted in parliament and in the case of Germany's very own political prisoner Horst Mahler were imprisoned for 10 years for thought crimes. No thanks.

 

To call the AfD, a middle class conservative and patriotic party, a "Nazi" party is just evidence of a total lack of intellectual honesty.

 

You don't need to wish for deportations, you have Horst Mahler who was imprisoned for 10 years in Germany for thought crimes. Intolerable indeed.

Edited September 1 by Cameroni

[newbee2022]

20 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Total drivel. Many parties have tried to change things in Germany, with the net result that they were put on the surveillance list of the local bureau of Germany's domestic intelligence agency, had their funding withdrawn, were boycotted in parliament and in the case of Germany's very own political prisoner Horst Mahler were imprisoned for 10 years for thought crimes. No thanks.

 

To call the AfD, a middle class conservative and patriotic party, a "Nazi" party is just evidence of a total lack of intellectual honesty.

 

You don't need to wish for deportations, you have Horst Mahler who was imprisoned for 10 years in Germany for thought crimes. Intolerable indeed.

Oh dear, what a twisted criminal Nazi brain. You hail extremists, Nazis and murderer. As I said: waste of space, my friend said. 👎 You're not different from Hamas or islamists and IS  unfortunately. 

[Cameroni]

23 hours ago, newbee2022 said:

Oh dear, what a twisted criminal Nazi brain. You hail extremists, Nazis and murderer. As I said: waste of space, my friend said. 👎 You're not different from Hamas or islamists and IS  unfortunately. 

 

Turns out my brain predicted things correctly though. In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party. Will they form the state government? No. Even though the AfD got the most votes, the CDU, BWS and Linke will form a coalition government, bypassing the will of the voters.

 

Since most parties only get votes in the 34% plus if they did well these days, due to the fragmentation of society and the plethora of parties, there should be an electoral reform. The way things are now governments are formed by backdoor political negotiations. It's got little to do with democracy.

[RayC]

9 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Turns out my brain predicted things correctly though. In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party. Will they form the state government? No. Even though the AfD got the most votes, the CDU, BWS and Linke will form a coalition government, bypassing the will of the voters.

 

Since most parties only get votes in the 34% plus if they did well these days, due to the fragmentation of society and the plethora of parties, there should be an electoral reform. The way things are now governments are formed by backdoor political negotiations. It's got little to do with democracy.

 

Unfortunately the AfD polled well. As the largest party they have earned the right to attempt to form a coalition. However, there is nothing improper or undemocratic about the other parties refusing to join an AfD-led coalition. It certainly doesn't "bypass the will of the people" as you suggest: A large majority (66%) did not vote AfD.

 

It is very rare for parties to win >50% of votes cast in 'one-off' elections and centre-based coalition government is the usual outcome. Is this anti-democratic given the circumstances? No. Does it generate the best outcome? Probably not. Is it the best way of electing a government? Open to debate.

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Unfortunately the AfD polled well. As the largest party they have earned the right to attempt to form a coalition. However, there is nothing improper or undemocratic about the other parties refusing to join an AfD-led coalition. It certainly doesn't "bypass the will of the people" as you suggest: A large majority (66%) did not vote AfD.

 

It is very rare for parties to win >50% of votes cast in 'one-off' elections and centre-based coalition government is the usual outcome. Is this anti-democratic given the circumstances? No. Does it generate the best outcome? Probably not. Is it the best way of electing a government? Open to debate.

How could they form a coalition when all parties vowed to boycott them? It's impossible.

 

If you have elections and the party that wins the most votes is bypassed after the elections, then there's not much point to vote. All the people who voted for the AfD may as well have thrown their ballot down the toilet. This has nothing to do with democracy.

 

Precisely because it's rare for parties to  win the outright majority and most only get around the 30s when they do well, there should be some reform to stop politicians from forming state governments by the backdoor. This is not democracy. How do you think people feel who voted for the AfD, know they got the most votes, but are, once again totally ignored?

[Gecko123]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party.

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this dark history has been forgotten by so many.

 

Edited September 2 by Gecko123

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

How could they form a coalition when all parties vowed to boycott them? It's impossible.

 

If you have elections and the party that wins the most votes is bypassed after the elections, then there's not much point to vote. All the people who voted for the AfD may as well have thrown their ballot down the toilet. This has nothing to do with democracy.

 

Precisely because it's rare for parties to  win the outright majority and most only get around the 30s when they do well, there should be some reform to stop politicians from forming state governments by the backdoor. This is not democracy. How do you think people feel who voted for the AfD, know they got the most votes, but are, once again totally ignored?

 

I imagine that most AfD supporters will feel disappointed that they are unable to form a government but, I repeat, there is nothing undemocratic or untoward about other parties not wishing to be part of an AfD-led coalition. That is their perogative.

 

What the AfD needs to do is win >50% of the votes cast, then there can be no argument about whether they should form a government.

[RayC]

22 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this history seems to have been forgotten by so many.

 

Let's hope that history isn't repeating itself.

[newbee2022]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Turns out my brain predicted things correctly though. In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party. Will they form the state government? No. Even though the AfD got the most votes, the CDU, BWS and Linke will form a coalition government, bypassing the will of the voters.

 

Since most parties only get votes in the 34% plus if they did well these days, due to the fragmentation of society and the plethora of parties, there should be an electoral reform. The way things are now governments are formed by backdoor political negotiations. It's got little to do with democracy.

God sake, they are not all extremists like you. The majority is not !

Actually you referring to 1 state, isn't it?

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this dark history has been forgotten by so many.

 

Actually in the 1929 election in Thuringia, the NSDAP was only the third most successful party and got only 11.29% of the vote. By far the biggest party was the SPD which got 32.30%.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thüringer_Landtag_(Weimarer_Republik)

 

So really the parallel here and now in 2024 is with the SPD and the AfD. Just like the SPD the AfD got the most votes.  Just like the SPD was ignored then the AfD will most likely be ignored now, and parties that got far less of the vote will form the government.  Through back door dealing.

 

Since this was already going on in 1929 and led to disastrous results, it is quite interesting indeed that in 2024 this formation of a state goverment by the backdoor repeats itself.

 

But it should be made clear that in 1929 Thuringians did not vote for the NSDAP mostly, the party that got the most votes was the SPD.

 

I hate to burst a good "history repeats itself" bubble, but in the following election you will see that the NSDAP received far more votes than in Thuringia in about 20 other voting regions. 

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei#Wahlerfolge_ab_1930

 

 

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

I imagine that most AfD supporters will feel disappointed that they are unable to form a government but, I repeat, there is nothing undemocratic or untoward about other parties not wishing to be part of an AfD-led coalition. That is their perogative.

 

What the AfD needs to do is win >50% of the votes cast, then there can be no argument about whether they should form a government.

 

Well, the 50% threshhold is unrealistic in modern society. There should be a system which guarantees the party that got the most votes can actually have a prerogative for government formation. 

 

Disenfranchising the biggest voter block was a recipe for disaster in 1929 and it's not a good look in 2024.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Well, the 50% threshhold is unrealistic in modern society. There should be a system which guarantees the party that got the most votes can actually have a prerogative for government formation. 

 

There are plenty of alternative systems e.g. first past the post, STV, etc. All have their flaws 

 

What system would you suggest? 

 

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

 

Edited September 2 by RayC
Overlooked a post

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Disenfranchising the biggest voter block was a recipe for disaster in 1929 and it's not a good look in 2024.

 

No voters have been disenfranchised.

[Cameroni]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

No voters have been disenfranchised.

Of course they have, the people who voted for the AfD might as well have flushed their vote down the WC. 

[Cameroni]

31 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

There are plenty of alternative systems e.g. first past the post, STV, etc. All have their flaws 

 

What system would you suggest? 

 

 

Canada's lower house, the US and the UK use FPTP. I would suggest it's far preferable to what is used in Germany. 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

Not surprising, The gang in charge of the EU in Bruxelles is plainly destroying Europe,  with it's identity and culture.

 

Even the moderate voters who never would have dreamed to vote for pro nazi or other far right parties are voting as they are the only ones who are prepared to take appropriate steps to Stop all the migrants comming in. Migrants who very often are involved in heinous crimes or rapes. The sad part is that it is due to a handful of such scum that the entire communities are flagged and given a bad reputation.

 

But the main anger all over Europe is now against America and their sanctions against Russia that are fueling inflation, increasing prices and putting Europe (and the world) in a continuous economic crisis. The only that benefit are those getting the ca$h in Ukraine and those selling the US built weapons all over the place.

 

Let's hope Trump will put and end to the circus, once elected at office ?

Edited September 2 by Middle Aged Grouch

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Of course they have, the people who voted for the AfD might as well have flushed their vote down the WC. 

 

Of course they haven't been. Anyone eligible to vote in this election could cast their vote for whatever party they wanted.

 

The AfD won 34% of the vote. They needed 50.1% of the vote to be able to form a government. They fell short and are therefore unable to do so.

 

I really can't understand why you find this simple arithmetic concept so difficult to grasp.

 

However, I do agree that the toilet is probably the best place for AfD votes.

 

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Canada's lower house, the US and the UK use FPTP. I would suggest it's far preferable to what is used in Germany. 

 

A matter of opinion of course but I completely disagree. 

 

In the case of the UK, the recently elected Labour government gained 33% of the votes cast, but won 63% of the parliamentary constituencies. How is that fair and democratic?

[Gecko123]

9 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Actually in the 1929 election in Thuringia, the NSDAP was only the third most successful party and got only 11.29% of the vote. By far the biggest party was the SPD which got 32.30%.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thüringer_Landtag_(Weimarer_Republik)

 

So really the parallel here and now in 2024 is with the SPD and the AfD. Just like the SPD the AfD got the most votes.  Just like the SPD was ignored then the AfD will most likely be ignored now, and parties that got far less of the vote will form the government.  Through back door dealing.

 

Since this was already going on in 1929 and led to disastrous results, it is quite interesting indeed that in 2024 this formation of a state goverment by the backdoor repeats itself.

 

But it should be made clear that in 1929 Thuringians did not vote for the NSDAP mostly, the party that got the most votes was the SPD.

 

I hate to burst a good "history repeats itself" bubble, but in the following election you will see that the NSDAP received far more votes than in Thuringia in about 20 other voting regions. 

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei#Wahlerfolge_ab_1930

 

 

Very squirrelly response which ignores the point that in 1929 this same German state voted in a politically extreme party which ended up having devastating consequences for Germany, and 100 years later they are doing the same thing again as if they have forgotten the lessons of history.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this dark history has been forgotten by so many.

 

Blame the liberals that have been running Germany and botching it, IMO, for that. If they had been doing a good job the AFD would have won nothing IMO. Nothing to do with a "dark history".

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

Very squirrelly response which ignores the point that in 1929 this same German state voted in a politically extreme party which ended up having devastating consequences for Germany, and 100 years later they are doing the same thing again as if they have forgotten the lessons of history.

You appear to be saying that they should vote for a party that has botched the country and is not making their lives better, because of history.

That's not a very convincing argument.

The other parties should come up with better policies.

[Cameroni]

4 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

Very squirrelly response which ignores the point that in 1929 this same German state voted in a politically extreme party which ended up having devastating consequences for Germany, and 100 years later they are doing the same thing again as if they have forgotten the lessons of history.

 

No, it didn't. As I said, in 1929 Thuringia voted  mostly for the SPD, 32.3%. The NSDAP came in third with only 11.29%.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thüringer_Landtag_(Weimarer_Republik)

 

The reason the NSDAP was able to participate in government in 1929 was a backdoor coalition deal. So it was not the voters of Thuringia at fault, they had mostly voted for the SPD, it was the political system that had been put in place. A very similar political system which now again allows parties to make backdoor deals to arrange the state government.

 

This is the history that repeats itself, the main party that got the most votes in 1929, the SPD was ignored in Thuringia, just as in 2024 the party that got the most votes will be ignored in Thurinngia.'

 

[Cameroni]

11 hours ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Not surprising, The gang in charge of the EU in Bruxelles is plainly destroying Europe,  with it's identity and culture.

 

Even the moderate voters who never would have dreamed to vote for pro nazi or other far right parties are voting as they are the only ones who are prepared to take appropriate steps to Stop all the migrants comming in. Migrants who very often are involved in heinous crimes or rapes. The sad part is that it is due to a handful of such scum that the entire communities are flagged and given a bad reputation.

 

But the main anger all over Europe is now against America and their sanctions against Russia that are fueling inflation, increasing prices and putting Europe (and the world) in a continuous economic crisis. The only that benefit are those getting the ca$h in Ukraine and those selling the US built weapons all over the place.

 

Let's hope Trump will put and end to the circus, once elected at office ?

 

This is exactly the point, the bulk of the AfD votes are protest votes, because voters are so angry with the mainstream political parties.

 

This is also why a manifest fruitcake association like BSW can get so many votes. These are all protest votes.

 

The reason why the AfD won is because of the incompetence of the main political parties in Germany. If voters were happy with the Linke, CDU or SPD they vote them into power.

[Cameroni]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

 

A matter of opinion of course but I completely disagree. 

 

In the case of the UK, the recently elected Labour government gained 33% of the votes cast, but won 63% of the parliamentary constituencies. How is that fair and democratic?

 

That's different, the UK uses FPTP only for the lower house.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

That's different, the UK uses FPTP only for the lower house.

 

That has absolutely no bearing on the point which I made i.e that FPTP is undemocratic.

 

The UK government is formed by the party which wins an overall majority in the lower house (House of Commons). Fortunately, the upper house (House of Lords) only has delaying powers, as election to it is even more undemocratic: it is by appointment. 

 

Not since 1935 has a government in the UK won a majority of the vote. You are evading the issue i.e. that the FPTP is undemocratic.

[Cameroni]

18 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

That has absolutely no bearing on the point which I made i.e that FPTP is undemocratic.

 

The UK government is formed by the party which wins an overall majority in the lower house (House of Commons). Fortunately, the upper house (House of Lords) only has delaying powers, as election to it is even more undemocratic: it is by appointment. 

 

Not since 1935 has a government in the UK won a majority of the vote. You are evading the issue i.e. that the FPTP is undemocratic.

 

Why would the party who got the most votes being able to form the government be undemocratic?

[RayC]

Just now, Cameroni said:

 

Why would the party who got the most votes being able to form the government be undemocratic?

 

Are you trolling? 

 

Why don't you address my original question directly? How is it fair and democratic that a party which wins 34% of the vote gains 63% of the seats in parliament? 

 

In the case of this election in Thuringer, imo as the party which won the largest share of the vote, the AfD should be given the opportunity to form a coalition government. However, as that the other parties have already declared that they will not work with the AfD, an AfD-led government will not occur. Given this, another solution will have to be found.

 

As I stated previously, it is the prerogative of each individual party to decide who it will - or will not - work with. There is nothing undemocratic about this process. 

 

Do you believe that the other parties should be forced to work with the AfD?

[Cameroni]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Are you trolling? 

 

Why don't you address my original question directly? How is it fair and democratic that a party which wins 34% of the vote gains 63% of the seats in parliament? 

 

In the case of this election in Thuringer, imo as the party which won the largest share of the vote, the AfD should be given the opportunity to form a coalition government. However, as that the other parties have already declared that they will not work with the AfD, an AfD-led government will not occur. Given this, another solution will have to be found.

 

As I stated previously, it is the prerogative of each individual party to decide who it will - or will not - work with. There is nothing undemocratic about this process. 

 

Do you believe that the other parties should be forced to work with the AfD?

Of course it's undemocratic for parties that are supposed to be vehicles for governing to blockade the will of the people by refusing to work with the party that got the most votes. The net result here will be that those voters who formed the largest voting block, who effectively won the  election in Thuringia, will have their vote effectively mean nothing. Not because another party won more votes, but because other parties simply refuse to follow the normal political and democratic process. How is this not undemocratic?

 

Are you trolling? What the hell are you talking about getting 63% of the seats? The AfD is getting 32 seats. Nowhere near 63%.

 

Why don't you answer the question, why would FPTP, which is used in countless countries, including Canada, the USA and the UK be "undemocratic"?

 

25 minutes ago, RayC said:

Do you believe that the other parties should be forced to work with the AfD?

 

That would obviously not work, however, there should be very severe financial penalties for parties that engage in this undemocratic and obnoxious behaviour of blocking the democratic process by refusing to engage in even negotiations. This is a clearly undemocratic and odious form of behaviour which should be sanctioned.

[RayC]

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Of course it's undemocratic for parties that are supposed to be vehicles for governing to blockade the will of the people by refusing to work with the party that got the most votes.

 

 

🤦Where to begin?

 

So you believe that Party 'A' which, for example, campaigns on a platform of lower taxation and lower public spending and then finishes second in an election behind Party 'B', which had campaigned on a diametrically opposite policy platform, should be forced to form a government with Party B? 

 

It doesn't work in theory and it is even less likely to work in practice.

 

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

The net result here will be that those voters who formed the largest voting block, who effectively won the  election in Thuringia, will have their vote effectively mean nothing.

 

 

Absolutely and utter cods, not least because the voters in Thuringia were well aware before they cast their votes, that the other parties would not collaborate with the AfD.

 

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Not because another party won more votes, but because other parties simply refuse to follow the normal political and democratic process. How is this not undemocratic?

 

There is nothing normal about forcing political parties to work together if they do not wish to. THAT is anti-democratic.

 

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Are you trolling? What the hell are you talking about getting 63% of the seats? The AfD is getting 32 seats. Nowhere near 63%.

 

 

You stated that you favoured FPTP. I showed that there is, more often than not, a 'democratic deficit' attached to such systems. I used the example of the latest UK general election - where the Labour Party polled 33% of the vote but won 66% of the parliamentary seats - to illustrate my point. This was made very clear in my previous post.

 

You are either trolling or being deliberately obtuse because you know that your argument is inherently flawed.

 

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Why don't you answer the question, why would FPTP, which is used in countless countries, including Canada, the USA and the UK be "undemocratic"?

 

Already answered in previous paragraph and posts.

 

(Please don't mention the House of Lords again. It is completely irrelevant, not least because it is an unelected chamber).

 

6 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

That would obviously not work, however, there should be very severe financial penalties for parties that engage in this undemocratic and obnoxious behaviour of blocking the democratic process by refusing to engage in even negotiations. This is a clearly undemocratic and odious form of behaviour which should be sanctioned.

 

This is clearly nonsense which deserves to be sanctioned.