Musk the useful idiot

[James105]

I'm old enough to remember when X was Twitter and was owned by censorious leftists.  

 

When anyone who was not far left were complaining about being censored all the lefties would cry out:  "It's a private company - they can do whatever they want and if you don't like it start your own platform".   Then Musk bought a platform and allowed people on the left and the right to share their views.   Now the tedious left are complaining.   Quelle surprise.   

[mogandave]

5 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

"how to decide what is true and what not"

research provides us with reliable facts.

when reliable facts tell another story then the claim that was made is a lie.

 

the goal is not to reach a conclusive end for each and every claim made, nor to control politics or media.
the goal is to prosecute enough lies so that the deterrence effect is enough to keep media and politics for the most part honest.

 

bias is the reason why I concentrate on clear-cut cases leaving no room for interpretation.

bias can't apply there.

 

But someone, the Ministry of Truth perhaps, has to decide who gets prosecuted. 

 

And what is a clear cut truth/fact? 

 

The Earth is not flat, but neither is it round. Should people claiming the Earth is round be allowed to speak, while people claiming it is flat are silenced? 

 

 

[mogandave]

Just now, James105 said:

I'm old enough to remember when X was Twitter and was owned by censorious leftists.  

 

When anyone who was not far left were complaining about being censored all the lefties would cry out:  "It's a private company - they can do whatever they want and if you don't like it start your own platform".   Then Musk bought a platform and allowed people on the left and the right to share their views.   Now the tedious left are complaining.   Quelle surprise.   

Now, some people on the left are calling for him to be arrested. 

[frank83628]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

 

oh I do!
they should just not be allowed to:

- lie, misrepresent, mislead, spread disinformation and propaganda
- be funded or paid by a criminal, antidemocratic foreign power
 

you mean like western media do.

[tgw]

17 minutes ago, mogandave said:

But someone, the Ministry of Truth perhaps, has to decide who gets prosecuted. 

 

And what is a clear cut truth/fact? 

 

The Earth is not flat, but neither is it round. Should people claiming the Earth is round be allowed to speak, while people claiming it is flat are silenced?

 

Prosecution should be mandatory for lies made in media and politics with the goal of political gain or monetary gain upon a citizen's complaint with proof of the lie.

 

An example of a clear-cut lie is Nigel Farage's 350 million pound for the NHS lie.

 

It was made for political gain in a matter of the highest importance for the destiny of a nation.

He should never have been allowed in politics again.

 

In your example of the flat earth, it is indeed a clear-cut fact.

 

But here is to consider which claim is misleading - people saying Earth is round are approximatively correct, and the claim isn't misleading - it warrants a mandatory publication of a clarification.

 

People affirming the earth is flat should be fined. Instead, they could have presented "physical or mathematical proof in favour of a flat earth theory".

 

And neither should be silenced. They can publish what they want, and then suffer consequences if they lied.

 

see:

 

Edited September 9 by tgw

[tgw]

6 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

you mean like western media do.

 

sadly, disinformation is present in many media on all political sides and many countries.

 

and I would say you pinning it on Western media is misrepresentation.

Edited September 9 by tgw

[frank83628]

On 9/6/2024 at 6:38 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Making friends around the world.... 😞

Brazil's Supreme Court upholds nationwide ban on Elon Musk's X

Musk has criticized Alexandre de Moraes, a top Brazilian judge, over his efforts to crackdown on right-wing online disinformation on X.

 

Sept. 4, 2024

 

Brazil’s Supreme Court has upheld a nationwide ban on X, the social media platform owned by Elon Musk, who has been openly feuding with a judge over the proliferation of right-wing political misinformation on the website.

 

A Supreme Court panel decision on Monday affirmed a Friday ruling from Alexandre de Moraes, a Brazilian Supreme Court justice, to suspend X over concerns about disinformation and the company’s refusal to appoint a local legal representative as required by law. Moraes also said that users who circumvent the ban with a virtual private network, or VPN, could be fined 50,000 reais — or roughly $9,000 — a day.

 

Moraes has aggressively cracked down on online disinformation in the past few years in what he has described as a bid to protect Brazilian democracy. His suspension of X was the culmination of months of escalating tensions between him and Musk, who has used the platform to amplify right-wing grievances over “free speech” in Brazil and accuse Moraes of trying to suppress right-wing voices on X.

 

(more)

 

https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/elon-musk-x-brazil-ban-supreme-court-rcna169356

 

Nothing can be allowed to interfere with Musk's use of X / Twitter to promote his right-wing disinformation allies.

 

funny how you didn't complain when it was run by a load if left wing activists, but now everyone can speak as long as its within the rules.

 

do you even use twitter?

[frank83628]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

 

sadly, disinformation is present in many media on all political sides and many countries.

yes it is, but is the same emphasis placed on western media outlets with regards to stopping lies and disinformation? 

 

 

[mogandave]

7 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

Prosecution should be mandatory for lies made in media and politics with the goal of political gain or monetary gain upon a citizen's complaint with proof of the lie.

 

An example of a clear-cut lie is Nigel Farage's 350 million pound for the NHS lie.

 

It was made for political gain in a matter of the highest importance for the destiny of a nation.

He should never have been allowed in politics again.

 

In your example of the flat earth, it is indeed a clear-cut fact.

 

But here is to consider which claim is misleading - people saying Earth is round are approximatively correct, and the claim isn't misleading - it warrants a mandatory publication of a clarification.

 

People affirming the earth is flat should be fined. Instead, they could have presented "physical or mathematical proof in favour of a flat earth theory".

 

And neither should be silenced. They can publish what they want, and then suffer consequences if they lied.

 

see:

 

What was the 350 million lie? 

 

Do you have an example of a current lie that should be prosecuted?

[tgw]

22 minutes ago, mogandave said:

What was the 350 million lie? 

 

Do you have an example of a current lie that should be prosecuted?

 

350 million:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/18/boris-johnson-350-million-claim-bogus-foreign-secretary

 

current lies ...

of course Trump is a serial offender in this department. I don't know if you require examples of his lies, there are many to choose from.

 

I have been looking for lies from the democrats or left-leaning politicians of other nations, but came short in the short time I searched, maybe you have some examples ?

 

I'm sometimes watching pro-democrat commentators on youtube spinning some things and I get sick of it. yes, they misrepresent facts too.

Edited September 9 by tgw

[mogandave]

34 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

350 million:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/18/boris-johnson-350-million-claim-bogus-foreign-secretary

 

current lies ...

of course Trump is a serial offender in this department. I don't know if you require examples of his lies, there are many to choose from.

 

I have been looking for lies from the democrats or left-leaning politicians of other nations, but came short in the short time I searched, maybe you have some examples ?

 

I'm sometimes watching pro-democrat commentators on youtube spinning some things and I get sick of it. yes, they misrepresent facts too.

I have no interest in reading an article, I thought you could tell me. Thanks anyway. 

 

Yes, I would like you to provide a few examples of lies Trump should be prosecuted for. 

 

President Biden said no American servicemen were killed on his watch. 

 

He also said that inflation was 9% when he took office. 

 

Should he be prosecuted? 

 

 

Edited September 9 by mogandave

[tgw]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I have no interest in reading an article, I thought you could tell me. Thanks anyway. 

 

Yes, I would like you to provide a few examples of lies Trump should be prosecuted for. 

 

President Biden said no American servicemen were killed on his watch. 

 

He also said that inflation was 9% when he took office. 

 

Should he be prosecuted?

 

I'm different from you, I will gladly review any credible links/sources you cite for these claims.

[Inderpland]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

I’m betting everyone that publicly supports Trump is under investigation 

And I'm betting that if you get more "hyperbolic" now you'll explode so calm down, cowboy.

[tgw]

12 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Yes, I would like you to provide a few examples of lies Trump should be prosecuted for.

 

I could only provide examples of "possible lies" that should be investigated and prosecuted if the lie is proven.

 

As Trump does it for political gain, every lie he tells to the media is worth a sanction.

One example would be the phone call with the head of the scouts:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/us/politics/those-calls-to-trump-white-house-admits-they-didnt-happen.html

 

Appropriate in this case would be for the liar to cover the costs of the investigation and legal costs as well as being forced to publicly apologize for lying.

 

[mogandave]

1 minute ago, Inderpland said:

And I'm betting that if you get more "hyperbolic" now you'll explode so calm down, cowboy.

How much plow-boy?

[mogandave]

3 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

I could only provide examples of "possible lies" that should be investigated and prosecuted if the lie is proven.

 

As Trump does it for political gain, every lie he tells to the media is worth a sanction.

One example would be the phone call with the head of the scouts:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/us/politics/those-calls-to-trump-white-house-admits-they-didnt-happen.html

 

Appropriate in this case would be for the liar to cover the costs of the investigation and legal costs as well as being forced to publicly apologize for lying.

 

Paywall. What did he say that was a lie?

[mogandave]

Should someone that calls another a serial offender, yes is unable to come up with anything other than “possible lies” be considered a liar?

[tgw]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Paywall. What did he say that was a lie?

 

from the link (visible to me):

 

Quote

 

Those Calls to Trump? White House Admits They Didn’t Happen

WASHINGTON — Has President Trump told you about the time the head of the Boy Scouts called to say his was the best speech ever delivered to the more than century-old organization?

 

 

 

 

[tgw]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Should someone that calls another a serial offender, yes is unable to come up with anything other than “possible lies” be considered a liar?

 

lol

Trump has been caught lying often enough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump

 

I say "possible lies" because I hold myself to the same standards I want to hold others to

Edited September 9 by tgw

[sidneybear]

Lefties hate free speech, so they blame the Russians (who renounced Leftism) for everything. 

[Inderpland]

2 minutes ago, sidneybear said:

Lefties hate free speech, so they blame the Russians (who renounced Leftism) for everything. 

Now that's what I love about you MAGA guys - no generalizations, but rather thoughtful and perceptive arguments that are so convincing!

[mogandave]

11 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

lol

Trump has been caught lying often enough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump

 

I say "possible lies" because I hold myself to the same standards I want to hold others to

But again, you feel free to call someone a liar, without knowing of a single lie with any certainty. 

 

But it’s okay, because you can post links to other people calling him a liar. 

 

And you are calling for some sort of Ministry of Truth to determine who tells the truth and who lies. 

 

I find that hilarious 

[tgw]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

But again, you feel free to call someone a liar, without knowing of a single lie with any certainty. 

 

But it’s okay, because you can post links to other people calling him a liar. 

 

And you are calling for some sort of Ministry of Truth to determine who tells the truth and who lies. 

 

I find that hilarious 

 

In my world "certainty" is a rare thing.

I reserve it for mathematics and for a small part of natural sciences.

 

But I could certainly compile a list of enough examples of Trump's lies where I am 99% sure he lied. In German we say "mit an Gewissheit angrenzender Wahrscheinlichkeit" which translates to "with probability bordering on certainty". German is a very precise language.

 

It doesn't mean I don't know. I leave 1% risk of being wrong, as a form of intellectual honesty and as an invitation to anyone to bring proof that I'm wrong.

From the over 30.000 alleged lies listed in the Wikipedia link, I'd say there is also a high chance of finding some that weren't outright lies.

 

[Inderpland]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

But again, you feel free to call someone a liar, without knowing of a single lie with any certainty. 

 

But it’s okay, because you can post links to other people calling him a liar. 

 

And you are calling for some sort of Ministry of Truth to determine who tells the truth and who lies. 

 

I find that hilarious 

I'm calling Trump a serial liar and at this point in time I have no need to post links as proof because everyone who's of sound mind knows it's true.

 

That some people think this is even debatable I find hilarious. 

[tgw]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

Another Putin puppet no doubt 

 

BTW, regarding my hunch about Musk promoting disinformation and pro-Russian views, Ryan McBeth made some compelling points in a video.

 

One can see how MAGA, disinformation channels and pro-Russian channels gain followers at an accelerated rate after Musk purchased Twitter

 

 

Ryan McBeth is a Youtuber well known for providing factual analysis

Edited September 9 by tgw

[mogandave]

2 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

In my world "certainty" is a rare thing.

I reserve it for mathematics and for a small part of natural sciences.

 

But I could certainly compile a list of enough examples of Trump's lies where I am 99% sure he lied. In German we say "mit an Gewissheit angrenzender Wahrscheinlichkeit" which translates to "with probability bordering on certainty". German is a very precise language.

 

It doesn't mean I don't know. I leave 1% risk of being wrong, as a form of intellectual honesty and as an invitation to anyone to bring proof that I'm wrong.

From the over 30.000 alleged lies listed in the Wikipedia link, I'd say there is also a high chance of finding some that weren't outright lies.

 

Okay. how about a few you are 99% sure of, that you think warrant prosecution? 

 

 

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, Inderpland said:

 

 

That some people think this is even debatable I find hilarious. 

 

 

Even more hilarious is the fact that he could be your next POTUS.

[maesariang]

4 minutes ago, Inderpland said:

I'm calling Trump a serial liar and at this point in time I have no need to post links as proof because everyone who's of sound mind knows it's true.

 

That some people think this is even debatable I find hilarious. 

Harris is a serial liar. 

[Inderpland]

2 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Even more hilarious is the fact that he could be your next POTUS.

That's about as hilarious as cancer.

[tgw]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

Okay. how about a few you are 99% sure of, that you think warrant prosecution?

 

one is provided here:

 

if you want more, take your pick here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump

 

I'm still waiting on your articulation of Biden's lies with supporting links.