world wide income taxation update

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Why do you think expats from US, UK, and Australia will have no problems?  Money is money, and the Thai's want it from everyone. 

 

 

Those problems to which I was referring dealt with ENGLISH language official documens which should not be needed in translation as ENGLISH is the official international language of Thailand.  I have noted in my 20+ years of retirement in dealing with the immigration or other government offices, my official US government documents never needed to be translated into Thai and were accepted for whatever was needed.  As for the financial problems, on those if you have seen any of my notes on this forum, I tell it like it is - I am old and totally ignorant of financial activities - fortunately my pension is a govt pension and I have no other income so the DTA of the US and Thailand also is pretty cleart to me - the information about my finances and taxation in Thailand came to me via folks on this forum - I learned where I could find that info and did so and then I relaxed as I noted how simple my finances and taxation here are especially compared to others here.  I do wish all the expats end up not having too many problems but I also realize that many will have complicated finance activities which the locals probably will not understand.  Hope they do like the PI and ignore pensions of all types.

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, NE1 said:

Question , if an expat is here on a yearly extension and they are going by the 65,000 baht a month route , that is a yearly income of 780,000 baht.

That is in the tax band of 20% . So if they pay the 20% tax of 156,000 baht this leaves 624,000 baht , which is 52,000 baht a month , doesn't that take them below the 65,000 baht a month required for their extension ?

Maybe that question will be answered by the Revenue Department before tax forms are due.  Good luck

[bkk6060]

12 hours ago, NE1 said:

Question , if an expat is here on a yearly extension and they are going by the 65,000 baht a month route , that is a yearly income of 780,000 baht.

That is in the tax band of 20% . So if they pay the 20% tax of 156,000 baht this leaves 624,000 baht , which is 52,000 baht a month , doesn't that take them below the 65,000 baht a month required for their extension ?

The 65k goes into your account via transfer.  You don´t pay tax until the following year in most cases.  The income tax filing will be seperate the bank does not take it out.

[Dcheech]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:09 PM, Thailand J said:

Overseas m
Mutual fund investment income will not be taxed, which is the opposite of what used to be.

 

Noticed that too. 😃  but all speculation until they actually set out what the rules will be.

Cue up three and a half months more expat shop talking. 

[Presnock]

13 hours ago, jaywalker2 said:

This is a Thaksin policy so the real question is how long Paetongtarn is going to be around. If she does, the policy will most likely go too.

Well I note in the local news article on her speech about the 10 policies that she will concentrate on, the one on the economy and taxes included a bit that she wants to get expats involved in the local tax too.  I assume it is the same as Setha's plans but I guess we will soon (maybe) learn just what they plan to do with expats and taxes.

[topt]

8 hours ago, Presnock said:

Well I note in the local news article on her speech about the 10 policies that she will concentrate on, the one on the economy and taxes included a bit that she wants to get expats involved in the local tax too. 

When you say local news can you provide a link please?

It wasn't picked up in the AseanNow article unless I missed it.

[KhunHeineken]

15 hours ago, Presnock said:

Those problems to which I was referring dealt with ENGLISH language official documens which should not be needed in translation as ENGLISH is the official international language of Thailand.  I have noted in my 20+ years of retirement in dealing with the immigration or other government offices, my official US government documents never needed to be translated into Thai and were accepted for whatever was needed.

Ok, so what has language barrier got to do with whether or not an individual, from any country, has a tax liability here in 2025?

 

Money speaks all languages, does it not? 

 

15 hours ago, Presnock said:

As for the financial problems, on those if you have seen any of my notes on this forum, I tell it like it is - I am old and totally ignorant of financial activities - fortunately my pension is a govt pension and I have no other income so the DTA of the US and Thailand also is pretty cleart to me - the information about my finances and taxation in Thailand came to me via folks on this forum - I learned where I could find that info and did so and then I relaxed as I noted how simple my finances and taxation here are especially compared to others here. 

So, you are American, but you posted UK and Australians "will have no problems."  Your words.  What do you know of the British and Australia DTA? 

 

I am quite sure every country has their own DTA with Thailand in their own language, for their own citizens / companies. 

 

15 hours ago, Presnock said:

I do wish all the expats end up not having too many problems but I also realize that many will have complicated finance activities which the locals probably will not understand.  Hope they do like the PI and ignore pensions of all types.

All the Thai's will understand is they can now write up a tax bill for just about every foreigner living here, and they have to pay it, or leave Thailand for 6 months of the year.  That bill may or may not be the correct amount to pay, but it will be a bill.  One way or another, I can't see the wealthy or the pensioners getting a free pass. 

 

You use the words "too many problems" but like most things in Thailand "problems" are measured in baht, and foreigners who are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes will have to pay. 

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Ok, so what has language barrier got to do with whether or not an individual, from any country, has a tax liability here in 2025?

 

Money speaks all languages, does it not? 

 

So, you are American, but you posted UK and Australians "will have no problems."  Your words.  What do you know of the British and Australia DTA? 

 

I am quite sure every country has their own DTA with Thailand in their own language, for their own citizens / companies. 

 

All the Thai's will understand is they can now write up a tax bill for just about every foreigner living here, and they have to pay it, or leave Thailand for 6 months of the year.  That bill may or may not be the correct amount to pay, but it will be a bill.  One way or another, I can't see the wealthy or the pensioners getting a free pass. 

 

You use the words "too many problems" but like most things in Thailand "problems" are measured in baht, and foreigners who are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes will have to pay. 

Only if they have assessable income which many will not.  Any nationality without a DTA exempting some taxes or LTR as on now, might have problems.  If that expat has documentation in ENGLISH then that is a minor and cheaper process to provide to the revenue department.  However other nationalities with documentation in their native language might have to provide translations of those documents too.  Agents/agencies may help provide that translation but probably at a cost.  But unless one has a complicated financial activity, there will most likely be little problems for the ENGLISH documentation to show to the revenue dept that they have no assessable income nor are they required as of yet to get a tax ID number nor file tax forms.  Seems easier for some more complicated for others.   Common sense says those ENGLISH documentation should have an easier time than the others.  Sorry if you got upset with my comments, I fail to understand why you and others get so upset with anything on this forum.  It is only comments and most of us are just opining about a particular subject.  Best of luck to you and others on this forum about this issue.

[Presnock]

15 hours ago, topt said:

When you say local news can you provide a link please?

It wasn't picked up in the AseanNow article unless I missed it.

I read a review of her speech by Reuters, which said "expand the tax base" and that was used before in the Thais finance/economic folks talking abut expats being brought into the tax base.  Maybe just an assumption by me on that terminology.  I don't link so you can just ignore it until they come out with something clear for all to see.

[topt]

41 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I read a review of her speech by Reuters, which said "expand the tax base" and that was used before in the Thais finance/economic folks talking abut expats being brought into the tax base.  Maybe just an assumption by me on that terminology.  I don't link so you can just ignore it until they come out with something clear for all to see.

Thanks for clarifying. The Reuters article I saw was less informative than the AseanNow one and definitely no mention of expats in either.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, topt said:

Thanks for clarifying. The Reuters article I saw was less informative than the AseanNow one and definitely no mention of expats in either.

Bt, if you read the examiner note of 12 September on what the PM's policy means, it mentions foreigners being included among those brought into the Thai tax system, even saying the "foreign residents" will be included in the new tax policy.

But every article so far except where the DIR Gen of the revenue dept mentioned about worldwide income taxation was being  discussed and that certainly woke up the expats here.  We still haven't gotten anything past that except maybe in a webinar the local agent might mention it but again nothing specific on timing nor how well the "discussions" were progressing if at all.  WE just have to continue waiting, and hope the nay sayers win out over those wanting to include all expats in their tax schemes.

[Madgee]

On 9/13/2024 at 8:36 PM, NE1 said:

Question , if an expat is here on a yearly extension and they are going by the 65,000 baht a month route , that is a yearly income of 780,000 baht.

That is in the tax band of 20% . So if they pay the 20% tax of 156,000 baht this leaves 624,000 baht , which is 52,000 baht a month , doesn't that take them below the 65,000 baht a month required for their extension ?

Thailand uses a sliding scale for tax deductions:
On  780,000 baht the tax due would be 71,000 baht 

[Madgee]

After basic deductions for an expat over 65 it would be 20,500 baht

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

Only if they have assessable income which many will not.  Any nationality without a DTA exempting some taxes or LTR as on now, might have problems.  If that expat has documentation in ENGLISH then that is a minor and cheaper process to provide to the revenue department.  However other nationalities with documentation in their native language might have to provide translations of those documents too.  Agents/agencies may help provide that translation but probably at a cost.  But unless one has a complicated financial activity, there will most likely be little problems for the ENGLISH documentation to show to the revenue dept that they have no assessable income nor are they required as of yet to get a tax ID number nor file tax forms.  Seems easier for some more complicated for others.   Common sense says those ENGLISH documentation should have an easier time than the others.  Sorry if you got upset with my comments, I fail to understand why you and others get so upset with anything on this forum.  It is only comments and most of us are just opining about a particular subject.  Best of luck to you and others on this forum about this issue.

Firstly, I am not upset. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this issue.  I just give more weight to posts that set out how one reached their opinion, which may include links, quotes, youtube videos etc etc, rather than just throw away lines like, "The Thai's would never do that"  or "Not gonna happen." 

 

You have probably read me posting that we will all have to pay "something."  I have not suggested that the "something" is always going to be tax.  I have also not suggested that the "something" will be a bribe, either. 

 

In your own post you have said some might have to pay for document translation, or maybe agents.  Is that not a new cost for them, thus "something" more to pay next year? 

 

All this discussion about assessable income, savings, gifting blah blah blah.  As I have said, for most, including pensioners, it could be as simple as paying 500 baht for a document from the TRD at extension time. 

 

Yes, we will all laugh at it, because for those who shouldn't be paying anything, they have to pay 500 baht, and for those who should be paying a lot more, they are only paying 500 baht.  It's the same for the Certificate of Residence. 

 

Time will tell, but when MONEY is involved, you rarely see Thai's walk away from it. 

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, Madgee said:

After basic deductions for an expat over 65 it would be 20,500 baht

Hardly a game changing amount, but a little out of a little can be a lot for some people's circumstances, but I believe the member's point is, doesn't that mean you now have less than 65k baht a month to live on, thus, the hint that the 65k baht may increase in the future. 

 

I have always said the 800k and 65k can't stay forever.  These figures are already decades old, but this is for another thread. 

[Presnock]

40 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Firstly, I am not upset. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this issue.  I just give more weight to posts that set out how one reached their opinion, which may include links, quotes, youtube videos etc etc, rather than just throw away lines like, "The Thai's would never do that"  or "Not gonna happen." 

 

You have probably read me posting that we will all have to pay "something."  I have not suggested that the "something" is always going to be tax.  I have also not suggested that the "something" will be a bribe, either. 

 

In your own post you have said some might have to pay for document translation, or maybe agents.  Is that not a new cost for them, thus "something" more to pay next year? 

 

All this discussion about assessable income, savings, gifting blah blah blah.  As I have said, for most, including pensioners, it could be as simple as paying 500 baht for a document from the TRD at extension time. 

 

Yes, we will all laugh at it, because for those who shouldn't be paying anything, they have to pay 500 baht, and for those who should be paying a lot more, they are only paying 500 baht.  It's the same for the Certificate of Residence. 

 

Time will tell, but when MONEY is involved, you rarely see Thai's walk away from it. 

Can't argue with that!  Was that way 50 years ago and little has changed except the cost has risen,

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, Presnock said:

Can't argue with that!  Was that way 50 years ago and little has changed except the cost has risen,

Yes.  It may be just another BS piece of paper that all foreigners will need at extension time, but backed up by laws that they can call in at any time for high net worth individuals, Thai and foreigners, but for most expat retirees, it MAY just be pay some money for the document, and that's your "tax" paid for the year.

 

Like I said, we may end up laughing at it all because TIT. 

[Presnock]

9 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes.  It may be just another BS piece of paper that all foreigners will need at extension time, but backed up by laws that they can call in at any time for high net worth individuals, Thai and foreigners, but for most expat retirees, it MAY just be pay some money for the document, and that's your "tax" paid for the year.

 

Like I said, we may end up laughing at it all because TIT. 

Amen to that!

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:01 PM, Presnock said:

Amen to that!

There's going to be chaos. 

 

If it goes down the path of needing a document at extension time, we might get reports that a certain office is just handing them out for cheap, and other offices are causing expats some grief. 

 

Expats may go TRD Office "shopping" or, particular officers give so much grief, on purpose, it pushes expats onto agents.

 

I wonder if an expat can go to any TRD office, or they will say you have to go to your nearest office as per your TM30. 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

There's going to be chaos. 

 

If it goes down the path of needing a document at extension time, we might get reports that a certain office is just handing them out for cheap, and other offices are causing expats some grief. 

 

Expats may go TRD Office "shopping" or, particular officers give so much grief, on purpose, it pushes expats onto agents.

 

I wonder if an expat can go to any TRD office, or they will say you have to go to your nearest office as per your TM30. 

from what I have read here on the forum, whenever someone goes to one office, they tell  him that he must go to the office where he resides.  I sure have no idea as they never really give us definite info...I did notice the deputy finance guy talking about their goals in that ALL workers in Thailand must register - I think that if they are going after expats that will be the answer for us if we too are required to register.  He indicates that it will definitely not be done through passage of a law until 2025.  But with all the money not only for the 10k to the poor, now with all that it will cost to repair damage from all the floods!  More storms on the way even.  But, who really has any idea on what will happen in the short while let alone the long one.

 

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

There's going to be chaos. 

 

If it goes down the path of needing a document at extension time, we might get reports that a certain office is just handing them out for cheap, and other offices are causing expats some grief. 

 

Expats may go TRD Office "shopping" or, particular officers give so much grief, on purpose, it pushes expats onto agents.

 

I wonder if an expat can go to any TRD office, or they will say you have to go to your nearest office as per your TM30. 

from

[JimGant]

On 9/14/2024 at 11:55 PM, KhunHeineken said:

All the Thai's will understand is they can now write up a tax bill for just about every foreigner living here, and they have to pay it,

Not likely. Whether we're talking remitted cash flow, or worldwide cash flow -- Thailand won't have the needed data to identify whether or not that cash flow is non income (savings), or if income, whether it's assessable income per DTA, or not. Thus, it will all be self-assessment by the tax payer, and TRD will have to give the benefit of the doubt. The best they can do in enforcement is the occasional random compliance audit.

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 6:21 AM, JimGant said:

Not likely. Whether we're talking remitted cash flow, or worldwide cash flow -- Thailand won't have the needed data to identify whether or not that cash flow is non income (savings), or if income, whether it's assessable income per DTA, or not. Thus, it will all be self-assessment by the tax payer, and TRD will have to give the benefit of the doubt. The best they can do in enforcement is the occasional random compliance audit.

Your post indicates the Thai's will implement this policy to the letter of the law, for everyone. 

 

I don't have that confidence in them, for the majority of expats.  My opinion is they will pull out the law book for high net worth individuals.

 

For the rest, I have a feeling it very well may be another BS earner for visa / extension, paying for a TRD document, similar to the Certificate of Residence that we pay 300 baht for, but should be free.

 

Time will tell.   

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Your post indicates the Thai's will implement this policy to the letter of the law, for everyone. 

 

I don't have that confidence in them, for the majority of expats.  My opinion is they will pull out the law book for high net worth individuals.

 

For the rest, I have a feeling it very well may be another BS earner for visa / extension, paying for a TRD document, similar to the Certificate of Residence that we pay 300 baht for, but should be free.

 

Time will tell.   

Yessir, I agree somewhat, in that they willl have to rely on self assessed incomes and while they won't have complete data on all people, will only go after for possible audit or quick check for documentation proving non-assessable income and they will probably determine this by a certain amount of income as they just won't have the manpower to do every expat as well as every new Thai that gets added to the tax rolls.  MY opinion anyway but sure hope it doesn't come to more paperwork - that is one of the reasons I got the LTR was to lessen having to do the paperwork which just seems to increase more than decreases.  Good luck to all.

[Presnock]

On 9/7/2024 at 12:29 PM, Ben Zioner said:

This was first published by the same newspaper early June. As I don't know how resilient RD 743 will be to this change, when this comes into effect, I have been cutting expenditure at the level of  my tax exposure of 22%. Been looking also at the possibility of staying out of country 186 days a year.

 

Right know we should all advertise that we have the means to make such a change ineffective as we either won't spend our money in this excrement hole and/or spend their expected tax revenue elsewhere by becoming pleasantly nomadic. I can see myself 3 months in Malaysia and another in Vietnam.

 

On 9/13/2024 at 9:06 PM, chiang mai said:

 

The Revenue Service will have been talking about this for a long time, it just turns out they found a government that was willing to listen and who thought it was a good idea.  Politicians themselves rarely have brilliant ideas, all they do is pick the good ideas  the civil service has been working on for years and which happens to suit their agenda and the economy at the time.

Actually, the politicians have seen the OECD agreement signed ion July 2023 and along with that article, a reporter  mentioned worldwide income taxation and immediately the cash poor Thai politicians jumped at that possible source of taxe.  IN some of the webinars on possible scenarios  in taxation, some  mention  that this discussion is still ongoing as not everyone is on board with such taxation.  Who know, the current government might not be around soon either, if they go down along with the other groups, then pretty soon there won't be any politicians left to nominate for anything.

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/24/2024 at 11:38 PM, Presnock said:

Yessir, I agree somewhat, in that they willl have to rely on self assessed incomes and while they won't have complete data on all people, will only go after for possible audit or quick check for documentation proving non-assessable income and they will probably determine this by a certain amount of income as they just won't have the manpower to do every expat as well as every new Thai that gets added to the tax rolls.  MY opinion anyway but sure hope it doesn't come to more paperwork - that is one of the reasons I got the LTR was to lessen having to do the paperwork which just seems to increase more than decreases.  Good luck to all.

Minimal paperwork, as in, hard copy actual pieces of paper.

 

The Immigration computer data base already knows about everyone's in, and out, of Thailand, including Thai's.  They know the 180 days inside Thailand. 

 

I am simply suggesting they will put their hand out for "something."  That's all. 

 

For high net worth individuals, Thai and farang, they MAY have a closer look at, but for most, it may simply be paying the TRD for a document come extension time. 

[Chivas]

On 9/21/2024 at 7:21 AM, JimGant said:

Not likely. Whether we're talking remitted cash flow, or worldwide cash flow -- Thailand won't have the needed data to identify whether or not that cash flow is non income (savings), or if income, whether it's assessable income per DTA, or not. Thus, it will all be self-assessment by the tax payer, and TRD will have to give the benefit of the doubt. The best they can do in enforcement is the occasional random compliance audit.

 

Best response on the thread

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/15/2024 at 6:24 AM, Madgee said:

After basic deductions for an expat over 65 it would be 20,500 baht

Many pensioners here would have to budget for that.  That 20,500 baht would have to come out of their lifestyle. 

[topt]

Seems to be the latest update on the tax system in general - 

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2932181/tax-reforms-being-studied-but-remain-on-the-agenda

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, topt said:

Seems to be the latest update on the tax system in general - 

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2932181/tax-reforms-being-studied-but-remain-on-the-agenda

31st March is looming. 

 

Members will need to be proactive.  No one wants to be the one they make an example of.   

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

31st March is looming. 

 

Members will need to be proactive.  No one wants to be the one they make an example of.   

yeah but now they can't really implement it until 2026 at the earliest since this year has already begun without that scheme in place.