world wide income taxation update

[Presnock]

On 9/14/2024 at 9:42 AM, Dcheech said:

Noticed that too. 😃  but all speculation until they actually set out what the rules will be.

Cue up three and a half months more expat shop talking. 

you must be dreaming if you think that they will give us all the info within 3 months.

[Presnock]

On 9/14/2024 at 11:55 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Ok, so what has language barrier got to do with whether or not an individual, from any country, has a tax liability here in 2025?

 

Money speaks all languages, does it not? 

 

So, you are American, but you posted UK and Australians "will have no problems."  Your words.  What do you know of the British and Australia DTA? 

 

I am quite sure every country has their own DTA with Thailand in their own language, for their own citizens / companies. 

 

All the Thai's will understand is they can now write up a tax bill for just about every foreigner living here, and they have to pay it, or leave Thailand for 6 months of the year.  That bill may or may not be the correct amount to pay, but it will be a bill.  One way or another, I can't see the wealthy or the pensioners getting a free pass. 

 

You use the words "too many problems" but like most things in Thailand "problems" are measured in baht, and foreigners who are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes will have to pay. 

well, the govt just announced easing of the wealthy pensioner of the LTR scheme - but they included in the benefits, that foreign income was still tax free, nowhere have I seen any indication other than from expats on this forum that the TRD will not be giving tax free to foreign earned income remitted or not.

[Airalee]

28 minutes ago, Presnock said:

in the long run, can be cheaper than locking your money up in a Thai bank.  Plus, no 90-day reports, in and out of the country free as much as you want, easier return at the airport...no need to obtain bank letters, etc every year.  just saying, I was on a retirement o for 20 years and after reading the benefits of the LTR, changed as it fits me much better.

Understood.  Your situation may be different than mine as you can see if you check out my post just a few above this one.

 

Of course…there are no guarantees with any visa I choose, but for me, I feel more comfortable with the retirement non-o

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

well, the govt just announced easing of the wealthy pensioner of the LTR scheme.

 

 

I believe the easing you are thinking of is for the Wealthy Global Citizen,  which is a different category from the Wealthy Pensioner category.  I don't believe that there was any change to the Wealthy Pensioner category. 

 

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

- but they included in the benefits, that foreign income was still tax free, nowhere have I seen any indication other than from expats on this forum that the TRD will not be giving tax free to foreign earned income remitted or not.

 

There has been a lot of speculation on this topic, and time will likely tell whose speculation is closest to the truth.  My speculation is for the LTR WP, WGC, and WFTP ( ?) Visas that all foreign sourced income remitted to Thailand will be tax free in Thailand regardless as to which year the income earned.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

I believe the easing you are thinking of is for the Wealthy Global Citizen,  which is a different category from the Wealthy Pensioner category.  I don't believe that there was any change to the Wealthy Pensioner category. 

 

 

There has been a lot of speculation on this topic, and time will likely tell whose speculation is closest to the truth.  My speculation is for the LTR WP, WGC, and WFTP ( ?) Visas that all foreign sourced income remitted to Thailand will be tax free in Thailand regardless as to which year the income earned.

But there was a bit on the fact that they thought that the 80K minimum for 2 years for the wealthy pensioner might be altered too  Maybe sometime in the 9+ years I have left on the LTR, the govt will advise us on all that is happening.  My only guess based on what I have seen since late December is that some parliament of cabinet members might still not agree to all the changes under the worldwide income taxation scheme which the finance leaders said that the govt wanted it approved by 1 Jan 2025 or they might not be able to implement it until 2026.  Who know what evil lurks in hearts of the TRD?

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

But there was a bit on the fact that they thought that the 80K minimum for 2 years for the wealthy pensioner might be altered too  Maybe sometime in the 9+ years I have left on the LTR, the govt will advise us on all that is happening. 

 

That will be interesting if such were to transpire (and the $80k minimum lowered for LTR-WP). 

 

I went the $40k US$ equivalent income + investment (in Thailand route) using my Thailand condo purchase + 2-million Thai Baht in Thai government bonds to meet the $250K US$ equivalent investment requirement.

 

 However for my year-2028 reproof of finances point, I have already started the restructuring of my finances to reach the higher $80K US$ equiv income (so that I don't need to repurchase another 2-million THB in Thai government bonds). 

 

I will watch this with interest, although likely by the time such is announced, I will have already financially restructured.  The restructuring is no big deal - other than takes a small amount of effort to change how funds are setup.  Precision is needed of course when dealing with money, so I do need to be careful when doing such.

[cliveshep]

On 1/15/2025 at 7:29 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Just to add to what the other member, topt, said, what about your visa / extension?  Are you using the 800k baht method, the 65k baht per month method, or an agent? 

 

IF world wide income comes in, how does your "cunning plan" get around that?  

I'm married to a Thai girl so it's the 400k route I use. As for the World Wide income I'll keep my money in the UK and transfer to my daughter who will send it via Wise to the same recipients as my "cunning plan" so nothing for the Thai taxman as my daughter is living in the UK.

[JimGant]

9 hours ago, cliveshep said:

As for the World Wide income I'll keep my money in the UK and transfer to my daughter who will send it via Wise to the same recipients as my "cunning plan" so nothing for the Thai taxman as my daughter is living in the UK.

Makes no difference what "filtering" system you use, since the remittance aspect to taxation will have disappeared.

[oldcpu]

On 1/15/2025 at 9:07 PM, anrcaccount said:

 

With respect, and acknowledgment that is a great visa for those who have it  , the LTR program has been a complete flop from the stated perspective of attracting new long term residents to Thailand.

 

Approx 4000 (number excluding dependents) granted in 2.5 years, very low numbers.

 

Judging by the posts on the forum, most of these to people who were already living in Thailand under a different visa. Not at all the aim of the program . It wasnt designed to make it easier for people already living here to stay. It was aimed to attract NEW "high potential" residents. It has failed to do this.

 

With respect,  the common advice for those considering a move to Thailand, is to rent first and not buy a place. Why? The logic is to not commit to stay in Thailand until one is more familiar with the culture, the laws and the area.

 

IMHO the same is true for a Visa. Even as a multi- million dollar millionaire,  it makes sence to come to Thailand and obtain a Type-O with one year extensions. Then after 1 or 2 tears, if all is well, only then switch to the very good 10 year visa.

 

So I tend to take statements claiming few new residents attracted with a grain of salt. Rather I believe many of those with the money are also prudent , and many don't immediately charge  into an LTR when there are graceful ways to first obtain a permission to stay in Thailand,  before then obtaining the very good LTR visa.

 

[KhunHeineken]

15 hours ago, cliveshep said:

I'm married to a Thai girl so it's the 400k route I use. As for the World Wide income I'll keep my money in the UK and transfer to my daughter who will send it via Wise to the same recipients as my "cunning plan" so nothing for the Thai taxman as my daughter is living in the UK.

The funds will still be remitted.  All you are doing is spreading the remittances over several recipients. 

 

Your daughter in the UK may also have some tax implications, but I am not a Brit, so I'm not up with this. 

 

You are basically trying to use Thai proxies to circumvent the tax policy.  I have no problem at all with tax minimization, however, the tax is on the money in this case, not necessarily the person, if you can look at it that way.  All you would be doing is shifting the tax liability onto some Thai's in the family. 

 

Your "cunning plan" may buy you some time, but as I have said before, I have a feeling that a foreigner living in Thailand on "air" is going to come under scrutiny at some stage.   

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/15/2025 at 4:58 PM, JohnnyBD said:

Maybe for some, it's not having to worry about paying Thai income taxes on remitted monies, or the convenience of not having to do 90-day reports & yearly renewals, or the cost savings (I was paying 5,700B yearly, 1,900 + 3,800 MRE permit with my Non-O plus the cost of bank statements, passport pics, taxis and the time to go to IM, so the 50k for 10 years is only 5,000B per year, plus the 800k can now stay in my home country bank earning 4.1% interest instead of .1% in my Thai bank, that's a savings of 32k per year. Like you said it may not be for you, but it definitely was worth it to me and many others. Good luck...

To my knowledge, the LTR visa involved applying with documents setting out your income per year.  I had a look at it and I can qualify, but I don't want to tell the Thai government anything, let alone prove to them my income. 

 

I am sure everything is fine for you now, but is it possible that if / when world wide income is implemented, they know all of your financials and will tax you accordingly. 

 

I saw the LTR as bait for a tax trap.  Just too much information required about income. 

 

I would have rather just paid 200,000 baht up front for it, no questions asked, but given the tax on remittances, probably wouldn't have gone down the LTR visa path anyway. 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

To my knowledge, the LTR visa involved applying with documents setting out your income per year.  I had a look at it and I can qualify, but I don't want to tell the Thai government anything, let alone prove to them my income. 

 

I am sure everything is fine for you now, but is it possible that if / when world wide income is implemented, they know all of your financials and will tax you accordingly. 

 

I believe this depends on how one's income and finances outside of Thailand is structured.

 

One only need tell Thailand BoI about the exact amount needed to obtain the LTR Visa.

 

Significant amounts in excess of LTR visa requirements, if from different sources,  need not be mentioned to BoI,  dependent on how such is structured.

 

Thailand is also constrainted in taxation to consider the influence of its own wealthy class and needs to consider foreign DTAs ( as not all favour Thailand) and the individual applying may also wish to consider constraints in the OECD CRS where not all foreign accounts are reportable to CRS.

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

I believe this depends on how one's income and finances outside of Thailand is structured.

 

One only need tell Thailand BoI about the exact amount needed to obtain the LTR Visa.

I'm quite sure you just can't "tell" them, you have to prove it to them with documents. 

 

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

Significant amounts in excess of LTR visa requirements, if from different sources,  need not be mentioned to BoI,  dependent on how such is structured.

I accept this, but not everyone may have a diversified portfolio. 

 

Would one really restructure, possibly at some cost, their portfolio just to maintain some privacy from the Thai government? 

 

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

Thailand is also constrainted in taxation to consider the influence of its own wealthy class and needs to consider foreign DTAs ( as not all favour Thailand) and the individual applying may also wish to consider constraints in the OECD CRS where not all foreign accounts are reportable to CRS.

 

I agree. 

 

I simply opted for the retirement / extension route, via an agent.  No 800k in a 3rd World Country bank, no dealing with immigration and the associated paperwork and running around and waiting in queues.  

 

As I have said, with the 800k invested in my home country at more than 5%, the interest more than pays for the agent, but I do laugh at expats who proudly claim their extension only costs 1900 baht.  They don't factor in the lost interest, not to mention the all the running around and waiting around. 

[oldcpu]

38 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I accept this, but not everyone may have a diversified portfolio. 

 

 

Would one really restructure, possibly at some cost, their portfolio just to maintain some privacy from the Thai government? 

 

One's portfolio structure need not always be cast in stone ...  but I agree, there are alternatives.

 

 

38 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I simply opted for the retirement / extension route, via an agent.  No 800k in a 3rd World Country bank, no dealing with immigration and the associated paperwork and running around and waiting in queues.  

 

As I have said, with the 800k invested in my home country at more than 5%, the interest more than pays for the agent, but I do laugh at expats who proudly claim their extension only costs 1900 baht.  They don't factor in the lost interest, not to mention the all the running around and waiting around. 

 

I've heard and read that view point before - and I note it works for now ... but for those with the money for the 800k in the bank approach, the agent approach (so to save a few thousand baht after all expenses added up) is not one I would consider for 1 second to adopt.

 

There was a time (back in 1998-to-1999) in Thailand when one could stay in Thailand pretty much visa-exempt and never leave the country.  Just make arrangements with a local immigration officer (after hours), pass them one's passport, get the passport back a few days later and another exit/entry was 'magically' in the passport, even thou one never left the area where one was in Thailand.  Eventually the abuse reached the levels where the Thai government cracked down on it, and the immigration officers involved were disciplined, and foreigners whose passports had the relevant (illegal exit/entry) stamps were made 'persona non-grata' to Thailand if the stamps spotted in their passports at immigration (when entering/leaving Thailand).  Suddenly the foreign embassies and consulates became busy with reported lost or hopelessly damaged passports that required urgent replacements (as the foreigners with the illegal stamps were destroying their passports so to get new passports without the stamps).  TOO MANY adopted that approach of paying an immigration officer after hours.

 

Why could that be relevant?

 

If every one would take your "laughter" at them serious, and then go the agent route like you (with no 800k THB in the bank) then I dare say this would be suddenly MUCH more in the light - and there could be a crackdown stopping such.

 

Who would that hurt? It won't hurt you with the money.  It would hurt those who don't have the 800k.. So for the 'wealthy' to abuse this workaround (to make relative peanuts of some more money) from my view, is incredibly selfish.  But each to their own.

 

Regardless, some of those who stick with non-immigrant visa (type-O/OA) approach might end up paying Thai taxes on foreign income, where those on an LTR might not have to.  So if one qualifies for the LTR visa, my recommendation would be to apply for such a visa - as the LTR visa at present  reads to me to be one of a number of good legal tax management approaches.

 

[JohnnyBD]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

To my knowledge, the LTR visa involved applying with documents setting out your income per year.  I had a look at it and I can qualify, but I don't want to tell the Thai government anything, let alone prove to them my income. 

Not a problem for me. I only had to disclose my US Social Security which is non-assessable, and my company pension which I do not remit. I didn't disclose any of my other investments. Also, if WW taxation ever becomes law and LTR-WP visa holders are not protected, then I will simply stay less than 180 days in country.

[KhunHeineken]

43 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Not a problem for me. I only had to disclose my US Social Security which is non-assessable, and my company pension which I do not remit. I didn't disclose any of my other investments. Also, if WW taxation ever becomes law and LTR-WP visa holders are not protected, then I will simply stay less than 180 days in country.

Fair enough. 

 

I decided I wanted to tell them zero, so not for me. 

 

The 180 days is a great option.  I have a feeling many will be using it in the future,   

 

If that was to happen sooner rather than later, that would make the LTR a waste of time and money, right? 

[JohnnyBD]

10 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

If that was to happen sooner rather than later, that would make the LTR a waste of time and money, right? 

It wouldn't be a waste of time and money for me, because my Non-O would have cost me more over 10 years than what the LTR-WP is costing me. (see my previous post on 1/15/2025 at 11:58 on cost savings & other benefits)

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

It wouldn't be a waste of time and money for me, because my Non-O would have cost me more over 10 years than what the LTR-WP is costing me. (see my previous post on 1/15/2025 at 11:58 on cost savings & other benefits)

Personally based on the most recent LTR offers, it gives me the impression that the govt will honor the 10 year foreign income non taxable - that is my opinion only of course but it seems to me that the govt wants as many "quality" long stayers meaning who will have more to spend on daily life.

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 2:07 AM, JohnnyBD said:

It wouldn't be a waste of time and money for me, because my Non-O would have cost me more over 10 years than what the LTR-WP is costing me. (see my previous post on 1/15/2025 at 11:58 on cost savings & other benefits)

Are you concerned at all about the financial information you had to supply?  I would think you have now laid your cards on the table. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 3:25 AM, Presnock said:

Personally based on the most recent LTR offers, it gives me the impression that the govt will honor the 10 year foreign income non taxable - that is my opinion only of course but it seems to me that the govt wants as many "quality" long stayers meaning who will have more to spend on daily life.

Are you suggesting Thailand wants to become a global tax haven? 

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Are you concerned at all about the financial information you had to supply?  I would think you have now laid your cards on the table. 

I'm not concerned at all. I only had to submit my US Gov't Social Security and company pension to qualify for my LTR-WP visa. I did not submit any other financials such as; my banking, brokerage or retirement accts. I didn't lay all my cards on the table, just those that do not matter. If they ever do start taxing based on WW income and LTR-WP visa holders or not protected, I will simply stay less than 180 days in-country. I do not need to worry about relocating to another country part-year, because I have a place to stay in my home country, and can enjoy spending more time with my loved ones there.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Are you concerned at all about the financial information you had to supply?  I would think you have now laid your cards on the table. 

 

 As others have noted - when applying for the LTR, one does not have to lay all their cards on the table.

 

Only the card's needed to get the LTR per BoI requirements.

 

Perhaps only those who 'borderline qualify' for the LTR had to lay all their cards on the table.

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Are you suggesting Thailand wants to become a global tax haven? 

Believe we will learn in the not-too-distant future if they want to tax or not tax retirees, while as for qualified technical specialists, they are offering lower taxes on the money earned in Thailand but the way they seem to be starving for any additional money, who knows what their next scheme will look like.

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Are you concerned at all about the financial information you had to supply?  I would think you have now laid your cards on the table. 

 

6 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

 As others have noted - when applying for the LTR, one does not have to lay all their cards on the table.

 

Only the card's needed to get the LTR per BoI requirements.

 

Perhaps only those who 'borderline qualify' for the LTR had to lay all their cards on the table.

I too have an LTR and what I needed to provide as covering the requirements, is basically public knowledge as I am a retire civil servent.  With FACTA and CRS and OECD requirements on banking, not a whole lot will totally "protected" in my opinion as banks will be probing for more and more or will just not open accounts for certain foreigners in my opinion anyway

[dinga]

ALL YOU HAND-WRINGING CHICKEN LITTLES......

 

take a look at today BP where the TRD talks about reducing Income Tax collections globally providing the impetus for countries to move towards comprehensive tax reforms - in the Thai context = including progressively raising the 7%  VAT and imposing Wealth Taxes on Thai's who previously had escaped the RTD net by stashing wealth offshore.  The latter is the context for the push for disclosure of WW income.  

 

Farangs may (eventually) suffer collateral damage but we ain't the targets....

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, dinga said:

ALL YOU HAND-WRINGING CHICKEN LITTLES......

 

take a look at today BP where the TRD talks about reducing Income Tax collections globally providing the impetus for countries to move towards comprehensive tax reforms - in the Thai context = including progressively raising the 7%  VAT and imposing Wealth Taxes on Thai's who previously had escaped the RTD net by stashing wealth offshore.  The latter is the context for the push for disclosure of WW income.  

 

Farangs may (eventually) suffer collateral damage but we ain't the targets....

Well in my 30+ years here dating back to the 50s, one thinig  that the locals think all westerners have is BIG DOLLARs! and while the TRD may be targetting the rich locals stashing money overseas, I think the greedy hands are also reaching for expats of the wes.t.  I could be wrong and they might just ignore most retirees and nomads but I do think all should have a plan already by now.

[oldcpu]

5 hours ago, dinga said:

ALL YOU HAND-WRINGING CHICKEN LITTLES......

 

take a look at today BP where the TRD talks about reducing Income Tax collections globally providing the impetus for countries to move towards comprehensive tax reforms - in the Thai context = including progressively raising the 7%  VAT and imposing Wealth Taxes on Thai's who previously had escaped the RTD net by stashing wealth offshore.  The latter is the context for the push for disclosure of WW income.  

 

Farangs may (eventually) suffer collateral damage but we ain't the targets....

 

 Yes -and the sky could fall tomorrow and you and I could be run over by a truck.

 

I think the best we can do is understand what is place today, and not speculate excessively on tax aspects that have not come to pass.

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I'm not concerned at all. I only had to submit my US Gov't Social Security and company pension to qualify for my LTR-WP visa. I did not submit any other financials such as; my banking, brokerage or retirement accts. I didn't lay all my cards on the table, just those that do not matter. If they ever do start taxing based on WW income and LTR-WP visa holders or not protected, I will simply stay less than 180 days in-country. I do not need to worry about relocating to another country part-year, because I have a place to stay in my home country, and can enjoy spending more time with my loved ones there.

Fair enough. 

 

I like to tell them nothing here. 

 

I used to also put down a fictitious figure on the TM6. 

 

The vacating Thailand for 6 months of the year is something no one wants to do, but it may well come to that for those who are not prepared to pay money for nothing. 

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

 As others have noted - when applying for the LTR, one does not have to lay all their cards on the table.

 

Only the card's needed to get the LTR per BoI requirements.

 

Perhaps only those who 'borderline qualify' for the LTR had to lay all their cards on the table.

Fair enough.  I accept this. 

 

I was and still am a little suspicious of this visa though. 

[KhunHeineken]

10 hours ago, Presnock said:

Believe we will learn in the not-too-distant future if they want to tax or not tax retirees, while as for qualified technical specialists, they are offering lower taxes on the money earned in Thailand but the way they seem to be starving for any additional money, who knows what their next scheme will look like.

The Thai economy is not in great shape.  They will be chasing every baht from everyone. 

 

The Director General has been tasked with broadening Thailand's tax base.  That means, getting more people on their tax books, including foreigners. 

 

Time will tell how this unfolds.