Is the Tax compliance going to be linked to Visa issuance ?

[theblether]

17 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

What a difference a few months make. 

 

Just a short time ago, ANY post mentioning even the possibility of some type of tax clearance document / certificate being needed by expats for their annual  extension was branded as "scaremongering" by members, and deleted by Mods.

 

Now, here we have a Mod, posing that very question, and real possibility of it happening. 

 

Members posted words like "tracking foreigners" and "tracing foreigners" and "chasing foreigners" etc etc.  When other members, myself included, suggested if it was attached to visas / extensions, it would bring the foreigners to the TRD, so no need to "track" or "trace" or "chase" it was still "scaremongering" despite the very obvious simple solution for the TRD in relation to foreigners and making them pay "something." 

 

I have explained the use of my word "something" in other posts. 

 

As I have said, expats are asking the question "why would Thailand do it" when really they should be asking "why wouldn't Thailand do?" 

 

Answer is:  MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, legit, or otherwise. 

 

Legit or otherwise is the entire point. As I said, it's only a question of time before someone starts a topic saying "immigration asked for my tax returns." 

 

And anyone dumb enough to think that immigration and the tax authorities haven't considered that people will transfer money to their wives hasn't thought this through. 

[jwest10]

7 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

Is the Tax compliance going to be linked to Visa issuance ?

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

I hope so. Why would you not want to pay your taxes if U love Thailand so much?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, theblether said:

Drivel. Laughable. The whole point of this overseas cash grab is to nail down transactions like this.  I have friends of this level of wealth who have already looked into this. 

And exactly how much tax, as a percentage, of overseas income remitted to Thailand are they paying? If it’s not zero the they are probably fools or have poor advice. If they have Thai income they should be paying a maximum of 17% or once again are probably fools or have poor advice.

 

there is the letter of the law and there is the way it is applied, you should be well aware that the 2 are different. Can the application change? Of course it can. Will it? Probably not.

 

On the subject of gifts, talk to people who actually know the practice and the way it is applied. I know both and am confident enough that I will be able to defend my decisions should I ever be audited. NB I do not bet unless it has no risk.

[theblether]

47 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

And exactly how much tax, as a percentage, of overseas income remitted to Thailand are they paying? If it’s not zero the they are probably fools or have poor advice. If they have Thai income they should be paying a maximum of 17% or once again are probably fools or have poor advice.

 

there is the letter of the law and there is the way it is applied, you should be well aware that the 2 are different. Can the application change? Of course it can. Will it? Probably not.

 

On the subject of gifts, talk to people who actually know the practice and the way it is applied. I know both and am confident enough that I will be able to defend my decisions should I ever be audited. NB I do not bet unless it has no risk.

 

Any chance you can rewrite that and make sense this time? 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

15 hours ago, theblether said:

 

Any chance you can rewrite that and make sense this time? 

I can, and did, explain it to you, however I cannot understand it for you.

 

Personally I paid for the advice I received so it was their job to explain it to me. It is possible that you require an explanation tailored to you. 
 

There is ample information in the threads for most to tease out the meaning, if it is opaque to you then you need someone else to explain it.
 

I have found in my professional experience that my desire to teach and explain, some times at great length, is related is reasonably closely related to the compensation I receive (be it financial or otherwise)

[theblether]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I can, and did, explain it to you, however I cannot understand it for you.

 

Personally I paid for the advice I received so it was their job to explain it to me. It is possible that you require an explanation tailored to you. 
 

There is ample information in the threads for most to tease out the meaning, if it is opaque to you then you need someone else to explain it.
 

I have found in my professional experience that my desire to teach and explain, some times at great length, is related is reasonably closely related to the compensation I receive (be it financial or otherwise)

 

No, you didn't. Let me explain something to you. I come from a family of accountants, including ICMA. We have operated businesses for forty years and I had two businesses in Thailand. I know what I'm talking about. 

 

I doubt you are professional and if you are, you are the type of professional that we have learned to avoid like the plague. 

 

Feel free to explain why my pals are fools, guys who are fluent in Thai and have lived in the Kingdom tax compliant for thirty-plus years.

 

Feel free to explain in terms that the members of this forum will understand the true definition of a gift in Thailand. I'm not posting it as the implications to the membership are shocking. You explain it. 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, theblether said:

No, you didn't

I did 

 

1 hour ago, theblether said:

you are the type of professional that we have learned to avoid like the plague.

My students rather strongly disagree. But then they were paying and continued doing so for years. However I didn’t accept everyone who applied, I suspect that you might not have qualified for my assistance.

 

1 hour ago, theblether said:

You explain it. 

No thank you. It has been sufficiently explained, explored and talked over in the forum messages.

 

however PLONK.

Edited Saturday at 11:46 AM by sometimewoodworker

[NoDisplayName]

Easy-peasy.  IO can simply ask for a tax clearance certificate, available from local tax office.

 

Not even sure that would require any change in policy, as the requirements for an extension include a list of documents along with the catch all statement something similar to "and other documentation as requested by IO."

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/Por1_151062.pdf

[Lorry]

So, here are @sometimewoodworkerand @theblether, both claiming to know how gifts work and both refusing to explain it (ok, @sometimewoodworker explained it, but I couldn't really figure out what he meant,  even after reading it several times).

Are you guys being funny?

 

Afaik, a gift needs a gift contract for each gift, the more formalized (eg stamped by a lawyer) the better, should also name the occasion for the gift.

A gift is not a gift if the gifter profits from the gift (you can't gift 1m to your wife and she uses the money to buy a car in your name).

Whether a gift results in a tax exemption for the receiver, the sender or both, has been a subject of debate in the various tax threads.

 

If any of you two can clarify things more,  we would appreciate it.

 

 

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Lorry said:

So, here are @sometimewoodworkerand @theblether, both claiming to know how gifts work and both refusing to explain it (ok, @sometimewoodworker explained it, but I couldn't really figure out what he meant,  even after reading it several times).

Are you guys being funny?

 

Afaik, a gift needs a gift contract for each gift, the more formalized (eg stamped by a lawyer) the better, should also name the occasion for the gift.

A gift is not a gift if the gifter profits from the gift (you can't gift 1m to your wife and she uses the money to buy a car in your name).

Whether a gift results in a tax exemption for the receiver, the sender or both, has been a subject of debate in the various tax threads.

 

If any of you two can clarify things more,  we would appreciate it.

 

 

I think the information that was documented in the Tax Guide is about as good as it gets, I don't see that anyone has been able to substantially add to it that albeit a few people have tried successfully to confuse it!

 

I absolutely bet the farm on the receiver of the Gift, not being taxed under the threshold as long as the rules are followed.

 

And I bet the farm and the ranch on the Gifter being taxed, if the gifted funds were assessable and the gift was made from inside Thailand whilst the gifter was tax resident.

 

 

 

[CapraIbex]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

And I bet the farm and the ranch on the Gifter being taxed, if the gifted funds were assessable and the gift was made from inside Thailand whilst the gifter was tax resident.

What if the gifted funds were transferred from the gifter's overseas bank account to the giftee's bank account in Thailand? For example, remitting USD from abroad to a foreign currency account in Thailand. 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

On 9/13/2024 at 7:32 AM, Fortunateson said:

What is your reasoning behind this?  If you have an LTR, should not be a concern for you. If you do

not have an LTR, then apply for one, if you qualify. Otherwise, remember that “you get what you pay for”.

"What is your reasoning behind this?"
Fairness - across all aged expats with a valid and suitable visa extension is certainly an important consideration. Equality - ensuring that all retirees or married couples aren't unfairly disadvantaged based on arbitrary distinctions like type of visa.

 

"If you have an LTR, should not be a concern for you."
You are completely out of context, and who are you to judge what I should or shouldn't do?

 

"If you do not have an LTR, then apply for one, if you qualify."
Whether or not I have a LTR or qualify for one is not the issue.

 

"Otherwise, remember that “you get what you pay for"."
Your condescending remark is entirely out of line and inappropriate.

[Dante99]

Tax compliance will take years to establish.  It is not like new law and tomorrow compliance.  Way too many issues to clarify.

 

They do not even have compliance with existing domestic rules.

Edited Sunday at 12:19 AM by Dante99

[chiang mai]

50 minutes ago, CapraIbex said:

What if the gifted funds were transferred from the gifter's overseas bank account to the giftee's bank account in Thailand? For example, remitting USD from abroad to a foreign currency account in Thailand. 

If the gifter was not Thai tax resident when the gift was made, that would work better. Even better if the gift was made entirely overseas and then brought into Thailand when by the receiver of the gift.

[CapraIbex]

34 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If the gifter was not Thai tax resident when the gift was made, that would work better. Even better if the gift was made entirely overseas and then brought into Thailand when by the receiver of the gift.

I am retired, married to a Thai national, and a tax resident of Thailand. I would have to make arrangements for having the funds remitted to my wife's Thai bank account from my overseas bank account.

If I were to create a 'monetary gift contract' drafted by a Thai lawyer, specifying that the gift is genuine and intended solely for my wife's benefit, and detailing the purpose of the gift (such as purchasing government or corporate bonds, a car, building a house, or anniversaries) with my wife also drafting a 'gift acceptance contract,' and I also would be able to demonstrate to the TRD that our actual annual cost of living expenses are exclusively funded by myself separately, how would you assess the likelihood of this being accepted by TRD: poor, fair, good, or excellent?

[DrJoy]

On 9/11/2024 at 12:46 PM, Unamerican said:

Why? and where is this exemption for Thais documented? 

Thais are obligated to pay tax as well. Its not a matter of mood for Thais.

 

I have a Thai friend whose Krungsri bank account was frozen on non payment of tax.

 

Its fairly easy to catch Thais since all of their transactions, bank accounts are linked to their Thai national ID card.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, CapraIbex said:

I am retired, married to a Thai national, and a tax resident of Thailand. I would have to make arrangements for having the funds remitted to my wife's Thai bank account from my overseas bank account.

If I were to create a 'monetary gift contract' drafted by a Thai lawyer, specifying that the gift is genuine and intended solely for my wife's benefit, and detailing the purpose of the gift (such as purchasing government or corporate bonds, a car, building a house, or anniversaries) with my wife also drafting a 'gift acceptance contract,' and I also would be able to demonstrate to the TRD that our actual annual cost of living expenses are exclusively funded by myself separately, how would you assess the likelihood of this being accepted by TRD: poor, fair, good, or excellent?

The issues that I see are:

 

a) will the TRD accept the money is a gift and not regard it as income for your wife.

 

I think the above is fairly straight forward in that they will accept it is a gift, if you do all the things you have mentioned.

 

b) will the TRD regard your remittance to your wife as taxable upon you, depending on whether or not the funds were assessable or not.

 

If the funds were tax exempt or otherwise not assessable to Thai tax, e.g savings. point (b) is not an issue. But if they are assessable, there is a very very big question mark over whether TRD will allow you to escape tax on an overseas remittance, simply by gifting those funds.  

 

As far as the gift tax element is concerned, you appear to be doing all the right things by documenting the gift and formalising the arrangement.

[Mike Teavee]

On 9/12/2024 at 4:51 PM, Lacessit said:

I guess I will find out in October, when I apply for my next visa extension.

 

I am below tax thresholds in my home country. No tax payable with a DTA.

 

My non-taxable pre-2024 assets are sufficient to finance my living expenses here for the next 6 years.

 

If I need a tax ID, I will get one. I am told the pink Thai ID card is effectively the same.

 

 

There is no chance of it anything changing before October, but if you were worried about it why not get your extension now.  Nothing to lose by doing it early (I usually do mine 44 days early). 

[sometimewoodworker]

12 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I absolutely bet the farm on the receiver of the Gift, not being taxed under the threshold as long as the rules are followed.

 

 

12 hours ago, chiang mai said:

And I bet the farm and the ranch on the Gifter being taxed, if the gifted funds were assessable and the gift was made from inside Thailand whilst the gifter was tax resident.

 

[CapraIbex]

41 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

there is a very very big question mark over whether TRD will allow you to escape tax on an overseas remittance, simply by gifting those funds.  

Thanks for your considered opinions.

So, If there is no tax on gifts in my country, would you still expect this to be a taxable event in Thailand even so the monetary gift(s) would be smaller than the publicized thresholds? 

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, CapraIbex said:

Thanks for your considered opinions.

So, If there is no tax on gifts in my country, would you still expect this to be a taxable event in Thailand even so the monetary gift(s) would be smaller than the publicized thresholds? 

It depends solely on whether you remit funds that are assessable to tax in Thailand or whether they are exempt in some way. The rules on Gift Tax in your home country are not really relevant, all the TRD cares about is the status of the funds you bring into Thailand.

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, CapraIbex said:

I am retired, married to a Thai national, and a tax resident of Thailand. I would have to make arrangements for having the funds remitted to my wife's Thai bank account from my overseas bank account.

If I were to create a 'monetary gift contract' drafted by a Thai lawyer, specifying that the gift is genuine and intended solely for my wife's benefit, and detailing the purpose of the gift (such as purchasing government or corporate bonds, a car, building a house, or anniversaries) with my wife also drafting a 'gift acceptance contract,' and I also would be able to demonstrate to the TRD that our actual annual cost of living expenses are exclusively funded by myself separately, how would you assess the likelihood of this being accepted by TRD: poor, fair, good, or excellent?

 

Firstly, take professional advice, as there are likely multiple ways to do this successfully.

 

But, since you are on a forum asking for amateur advice , here goes......  avoid much complication and do it this way, more airtight:

 

Gift to your wife's foreign account ( assuming she has one, if not, get her one) >>>>

Wife remits the funds from her own foreign account to her Thai bank account >>>>

Done

 

Your tax residency status in Thailand is irrelevant. Only your wife has remitted the funds to Thailand , these funds are a gift, and non assessable and tax exempt. 

 

[CapraIbex]

51 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

But, since you are on a forum asking for amateur advice , here goes......  avoid much complication and do it this way, more airtight:

My post was specifically directed to 'chiang mai', I never asked for advice but indicated my appreciation and thanks for his opinion.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Firstly, take professional advice, as there are likely multiple ways to do this successfully.

 

But, since you are on a forum asking for amateur advice , here goes......  avoid much complication and do it this way, more airtight:

 

Gift to your wife's foreign account ( assuming she has one, if not, get her one) >>>>

Wife remits the funds from her own foreign account to her Thai bank account >>>>

Done

 

Your tax residency status in Thailand is irrelevant. Only your wife has remitted the funds to Thailand , these funds are a gift, and non assessable and tax exempt. 

 

The posters tax residency in Thailand is highly relevant, depending on where the gift is made, in Thailand or overseas. If tax resident in Thailand and the gift is made here, there is a risk, depending on the nature of the funds that are remitted, that they may be assessable here, on him.

[CapraIbex]

59 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

all the TRD cares about is the status of the funds you bring into Thailand.

Apologies for being a bit of a pest, but I believe the wider community would find it both interesting and educational to hear your insights, given your respected standing in this forum.

How would you suggest clarifying the status of the funds I bring into Thailand?

By the way, I really appreciate your willingness to engage on such a controversial topic. Since my planned gifts will exceed THB 1 million per year, I will definitely consult a lawyer for proper guidance.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, CapraIbex said:

Apologies for being a bit of a pest, but I believe the wider community would find it both interesting and educational to hear your insights, given your respected standing in this forum.

How would you suggest clarifying the status of the funds I bring into Thailand?

By the way, I really appreciate your willingness to engage on such a controversial topic. Since my planned gifts will exceed THB 1 million per year, I will definitely consult a lawyer for proper guidance.

What I would do is to start with Por 161/162 and try to separate the funds in my home country between income earned prior to 31 December 2023 and everything else. That will leave you with two pots of money, not assessable and potentially assessable.

 

I would then look at the relevant DTA to determine what parts of the assessable pot can be moved across to not assessable, ie, exempt funds by treaty......ditto with any income. Eventually you should end up with two fairly clearly defined pots which should allow you some latitude in knowing what you can remit and what needs some attention/research. Perhaps there will be a third pot also, funds that are unclear 

 

Some unclear issues at present seem to include the TRD handling of capital gains and commingled funds so real estate sales needs some research, as do market investments, eg equities and bond funds.

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Gift to your wife's foreign account ( assuming she has one, if not, get her one) >>>>

Wife remits the funds from her own foreign account to her Thai bank account >>>>

Done

 

Your tax residency status in Thailand is irrelevant. Only your wife has remitted the funds to Thailand , these funds are a gift, and non assessable and tax exempt. 

 

The posters tax residency in Thailand is highly relevant, depending on where the gift is made, in Thailand or overseas. If tax resident in Thailand and the gift is made here, there is a risk, depending on the nature of the funds that are remitted, that they may be assessable here, on him

 

 

I sense you didn't read what I wrote above?

 

I suggested the gift be given and received overseas.

 

If the gift is made overseas, and then remitted to Thailand by the giftee, this means:

 

- the only party remitting funds to Thailand is the wife (giftee) and these funds are a gift, non assessable and exempt from Thai tax

 

- the giftor ( op husband) has not remitted any funds to Thailand, therefore their tax residency status is irrelevant to whether it's assessable in Thailand . It's not assessable for the giftor in Thailand, because it wasn't remitted by them. 

[chiang mai]

18 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

I sense you didn't read what I wrote above?

 

 

"Your tax residency status in Thailand is irrelevant. Only your wife has remitted the funds to Thailand , these funds are a gift, and non assessable and tax exempt". 

 

Nope, I read what you wrote, which is why I wrote:

 

"The posters tax residency in Thailand is highly relevant, depending on where the gift is made, in Thailand or overseas". 

[anrcaccount]

35 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

"Your tax residency status in Thailand is irrelevant. Only your wife has remitted the funds to Thailand , these funds are a gift, and non assessable and tax exempt". 

 

Nope, I read what you wrote, which is why I wrote:

 

"The posters tax residency in Thailand is highly relevant, depending on where the gift is made, in Thailand or overseas". 

 

Right, so given my suggestion was to make the gift overseas, from his foreign account to another foreign account held by his wife............... the posters tax residency is then irrelevant, do we agree on this at least?

 

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Right, so given my suggestion was to make the gift overseas, from his foreign account to another foreign account held by his wife............... the posters tax residency is then irrelevant, do we agree on this at least?

 

Yes we agree that. It was the way you wrote the para's that made me see the statements as contradictory. No biggie, as long as we're all clear.