Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Mike Lister]

This thread is a continuation of what was previously known as the long Tax thread which is linked here. The old thread, Part I, has been closed because it had become too long and unwieldy for members to usefully navigate.

 

Several related tax threads exist and these are listed and linked below, this list will be updated as soon as new related threads are started.

 

The Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand, initially referred to as the Simple Tax Guide, is  here.

 

Links to Thai Tax Consultancies  is here. 

 

Legal Strategies to Reduce Thai Tax is here.

 

Feedback from Revenue Contacts is here. 

 

A discussion on Gift Tax is here (to be created)

 

A link to the TRD English language site, containing tax forms, instructions, tax guide and useful extracts from the tax code, here.

 

Copies of all Dual Tax Agreements' here.

 

 

 

 

 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

Will banks start to deduct tax at source on every foreigners bank account even if the foreigner does not stay more then 180 days ?

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

This thread is a continuation of what was previously known as the long Tax thread which is linked here. The old thread, Part I, has been closed because it had become too long and unwieldy for members to usefully navigate.

 

Several related tax threads exist and these are listed and linked below, this list will be updated as soon as new related threads are started.

 

The Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand, initially referred to as the Simple Tax Guide, is  here.

 

Links to Thai Tax Consultancies  is here. 

 

Legal Strategies to Reduce Thai Tax is here.

 

Feedback from Revenue Contacts is here. 

 

A discussion on Gift Tax is here (to be created)

 

 

 

 

 

Looks great, thanks. 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Will banks start to deduct tax at source on every foreigners bank account even if the foreigner does not stay more then 180 days ?

We do not believe that is possible in the short to medium term or even probable in the longer term.

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Will banks start to deduct tax at source on every foreigners bank account even if the foreigner does not stay more then 180 days ?

IMO, not possible. That would be stealing from the customers who are not tax residents, and from those who are exempt from paying taxes, and from those who's remittances are non-assessable monies.

[Mike Lister]

Key Date

 

28th June 2024 is 180 days into the calendar year.

 

The first tax returns are capable of being filed from then onwards.

 

If you don't want to be Thai tax resident this year and you've been here all year thus far, begone by the 27th.

[Lorry]

There is a video of a discussion about the new tax rules at the French embassy.

Discussion of this video on AN has been blocked twice, because the video is mainly in French. Moderator said an English translation or summary of the video would be ok.

I listened only to the part after 56:17 minutes where the DTA between France and Thailand is discussed  (about pensions), about 6 minutes.

 

Summary:

These 6 minutes are an incredible mess of different opinions in Thai, French and English about what the DTA says. Complete confusion. The participants of the discussion can't agree on the most basic things. 

 

What I take from this is: if the RD does something like this in front of cameras at the French embassy, I can imagine how I would fare if my view of a DTA is different from their views.

There are many on AN, especially Mike Lister, who say don't worry,  the DTAs will protect you. 

Others like me have always said the use of DTAs will be extremely complicated,  laborious and expensive.

The French video most definitely supports my point.

On the other side, I know of one case where a provincial office of the RD was very knowledgeable about a DTA and it was smooth sailing along the lines of Mike Lister et al. Hopefully these people will prevail.

 

This post uses English language only, please do not delete it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The first tax returns are capable of being filed from then onwards

Is it possible to file a tax return for 2024 before Jan 1st, 2025?

[CharlieKo]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The first tax returns are capable of being filed from then onwards

for clarity, are you saying we need to file a tax return after the 28th June, or only certain entities or people should or need to?

[Lorry]

36 minutes ago, Pattaya57 said:

"All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons)"

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/tax-administration

 

But what is the earliest you can file?

Can you really file in July if you leave the country for the rest of the year?

 

Practical importance:

Retirees already have one fix date (ok, it's not one day, it's about a month) when they HAVE TO be in Thailand: the yearly extension.

If you stay here longer,  sooner or later comes a year where this is very inconvenient.

Is there now a second period  - Jan 1st to March 31st - where you HAVE TO be here at some time to file your taxes? IIRC foreigners cannot file online, I certainly won't try to file taxes online when I am not in Thailand. 

(there are 2 good reasons for me not to be here between Jan 1st and March 31st: air quality and tourists)

 

[Mike Lister]

I see from all the deleted bickering posts overnight that the new thread is off to a flying start. Well done, the thread is well on its way to another 300 pages of nonsense!

 

I previously wrote, "If you don't want to be Thai tax resident this year and you've been here all year thus far, begone by the 27th". I didn't think it was necessary to explain why a person might not want to become Thai tax resident, after all, the term tax resident isn't exactly a complex or obscure term that has hidden meaning. I felt that the reason was self evident, that this could result in a person being required to file a tax return, if they had exceeded the minimum income threshold. Of course, I could have spelled out all those things, but I thought the important part of the sentence was the date and that the average member would be able to work out the rest fairly easily. Apparently not everyone is able to do this so let me humbly apologise and spell out what I really should have said.

 

If you don't want to be Thai tax resident and you've been here all year long thus far, begone by the 27th. This is because if you do become tax resident and you have exceeded the minimum threshold for accessible income, which is 60,000 baht for bank interest only or 120,00 baht if other income is included (220,000 for married people), you are supposed to file a tax return. But if you have exceeded the threshold but there is no tax to pay, some people may not need to file a tax return. This is because the  fine for not filing a return where the thresholds have been exceeded is only 2,000 baht but there is no evidence the fine is actually levied. Nevertheless, not filing a return under those circumstances exposes the tax payer to TRD audits in the future for the past seven years, rather than the past three years, if the return had been filed. 

 

There, I hope that is a more satisfactory and complete explanation as to why the 27th June might be a significant date to remember.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, Lorry said:

But what is the earliest you can file?

Can you really file in July if you leave the country for the rest of the year?

 

Practical importance:

Retirees already have one fix date (ok, it's not one day, it's about a month) when they HAVE TO be in Thailand: the yearly extension.

If you stay here longer,  sooner or later comes a year where this is very inconvenient.

Is there now a second period  - Jan 1st to March 31st - where you HAVE TO be here at some time to file your taxes? IIRC foreigners cannot file online, I certainly won't try to file taxes online when I am not in Thailand. 

(there are 2 good reasons for me not to be here between Jan 1st and March 31st: air quality and tourists)

 

 

5 hours ago, Lorry said:

Is it possible to file a tax return for 2024 before Jan 1st, 2025?

 

4 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

for clarity, are you saying we need to file a tax return after the 28th June, or only certain entities or people should or need to?

 

What I wrote was, "The first tax returns are capable of being filed from then onwards", not  that a return must be filed then. That statement says, "capable of being filed", implying  if the TRD allows them to be filed, prior to the end of the tax year and this remains uncertain.

 

One strategy I've used in the past where I was leaving a country I'd worked in and I had an obligation to file a return, has been to visit a tax  preparation/consultancy to prepare the return, whilst I was in  country and had all the paperwork to hand and then leave the actual filing part to them, once the tax year had ended.

 

However, six monthly tax returns are required in Thailand from the self employed plus other categories of taxpayer are required to file throughout the year so the facilities do exist to file a return before the end of the year. Whether or not that is allowed/required from transient foreign tax residents, I am uncertain, but I imagine it must be.

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, Lorry said:

There is a video of a discussion about the new tax rules at the French embassy.

Discussion of this video on AN has been blocked twice, because the video is mainly in French. Moderator said an English translation or summary of the video would be ok.

I listened only to the part after 56:17 minutes where the DTA between France and Thailand is discussed  (about pensions), about 6 minutes.

 

Summary:

These 6 minutes are an incredible mess of different opinions in Thai, French and English about what the DTA says. Complete confusion. The participants of the discussion can't agree on the most basic things. 

 

What I take from this is: if the RD does something like this in front of cameras at the French embassy, I can imagine how I would fare if my view of a DTA is different from their views.

There are many on AN, especially Mike Lister, who say don't worry,  the DTAs will protect you. 

Others like me have always said the use of DTAs will be extremely complicated,  laborious and expensive.

The French video most definitely supports my point.

On the other side, I know of one case where a provincial office of the RD was very knowledgeable about a DTA and it was smooth sailing along the lines of Mike Lister et al. Hopefully these people will prevail.

 

This post uses English language only, please do not delete it.

 

 

That French video has caused more problems than it has solved. This is why we only allow English language content. It is possible to watch the video on Youtube and to toggle the language setting to obtain an English language translation. I did that and watched some of it but gave up because of the chaos it contained, as you have alluded to. The video has French and Thai tax people, debating the language used to interpret the DTA and failing to conclusively agree, yet continuing to debate without that agreement, it's nonsense. It's my view that everyone, apart from the French, will be better off not paying attention to the video. The argument that what is said in it will apply to all nationalities, not just the French, is fallacious because all DTA's are different.

 

Secondly, you wrote, "There are many on AN, especially Mike Lister, who say don't worry,  the DTAs will protect you". I don't believe I or anyone else has actually said that! What many of us have said is that a DTA should ensure that the same income is not taxed twice, by two countries. We didn't tell you not to worry and we didn't imply that a DTA will protect you from all manner of bad things, just that it should, if used correctly,  prevent double taxation.

[Everyman]

Milestones continue to pass without any updates from the revenue department regarding enforcement. Last year everyone was waiting for the new year to hear more. There was nothing. Now everyone is waiting for the six month residency period. There will be nothing. Then they will say “oh, something will be announced by the end of 2024.” When that date passes they will point to the audit period. 

 

Regarding the residency thing, how does TRD know how long you’ve been in the country? With the DTAs as complicated and varied as they are, surely the rule change is minor, so why does everyone think they will suddenly step up enforcement, especially absent any statements to affirm that? How much different is it to prove that monies were earned in a different year than to prove they fall under a DTA provision? If it’s suddenly so critical to get a tax ID number merely based on residency, then why is it also so difficult to get one as compared to someone working in Thailand? 

 

My first thought when I saw the announcement in September was that it was aimed at a few wealthy Thais that have managed to wriggle out of audits based on that rule, not foreign residents or condo investors, even if they are affected under the letter of the law. 

 

For resident that brings in enough money to live on or even buy a [few] condo[s] or build a house for an Isaan girl or even start a small business, there’s not enough reason to do anything at all, and certainly not to “avoid Thai tax residency” which there is no evidence the TRD can track anyway or is interested in tracking. And the consequences down the road if something does get enforced is what…a 2000 baht fine and asserting to TRD that funds fall under a DTA? 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Everyman said:

Milestones continue to pass without any updates from the revenue department regarding enforcement. Last year everyone was waiting for the new year to hear more. There was nothing. Now everyone is waiting for the six month residency period. There will be nothing. Then they will say “oh, something will be announced by the end of 2024.” When that date passes they will point to the audit period. 

 

Regarding the residency thing, how does TRD know how long you’ve been in the country? With the DTAs as complicated and varied as they are, surely the rule change is minor, so why does everyone think they will suddenly step up enforcement, especially absent any statements to affirm that? How much different is it to prove that monies were earned in a different year than to prove they fall under a DTA provision? If it’s suddenly so critical to get a tax ID number merely based on residency, then why is it also so difficult to get one as compared to someone working in Thailand? 

 

My first thought when I saw the announcement in September was that it was aimed at a few wealthy Thais that have managed to wriggle out of audits based on that rule, not foreign residents or condo investors, even if they are affected under the letter of the law. 

 

For resident that brings in enough money to live on or even buy a [few] condo[s] or build a house for an Isaan girl or even start a small business, there’s not enough reason to do anything at all, and certainly not to “avoid Thai tax residency” which there is no evidence the TRD can track anyway or is interested in tracking. And the consequences down the road if something does get enforced is what…a 2000 baht fine and asserting to TRD that funds fall under a DTA? 

Let me play devils advocate with your post.

 

The TRD has announced the rule change and has attended some Q&A sessions, along with some embassy briefings.....you've been told, what more can you reasonably expect? In the nanny state country where I come from, these types of rule changes would require personalised letters are sent to everyone, along with instructions and handboooks, all possibly years in advance. Thailand is not such a place, everyone has to try and work things out for themselves. The Thai tax system has been in place for years, not many people use it regularly but nevertheless, some do file tax returns. I hope to goodness that not too many locals are watching the reactions of foreigners to this simple rule change and all the angst and fretting that's taking place, otherwise they are likely to shake their heads in disbelief. The problem foreigners have with this of course is not just the rule change. The problem they have is moving from a perceived no tax environment to a taxed environment, that is a shock for many.

 

The TRD is not going to track you to see how long you've been in the country and to see if you've filed a return, not yet at least. Those things are your responsibility to determine whether you need to act or not. If you do act, great, thanks for following the rules. If you don't act, well, downstream there may be consequences and if there are, you can't say you weren't told. Will they step up enforcement? I haven't read where anyone said they will, apart from members on AN who think they will. Do I think they will, absolutely I do, but that's just me. The TRD has a couple of choices: don't enforce the rules and hope that everyone plays ball and perhaps pick off a few offenders from time to time, as they present themselves. Alternatively, they can get serious about this, which means implementing tax clearance certificates to force compliance. I think the latter is probable.

[Dogmatix]

13 hours ago, Lorry said:

But what is the earliest you can file?

Can you really file in July if you leave the country for the rest of the year?

 

Practical importance:

Retirees already have one fix date (ok, it's not one day, it's about a month) when they HAVE TO be in Thailand: the yearly extension.

If you stay here longer,  sooner or later comes a year where this is very inconvenient.

Is there now a second period  - Jan 1st to March 31st - where you HAVE TO be here at some time to file your taxes? IIRC foreigners cannot file online, I certainly won't try to file taxes online when I am not in Thailand. 

(there are 2 good reasons for me not to be here between Jan 1st and March 31st: air quality and tourists)

 

You can usually file on the first working day on the new year.  I remember once online filing was delayed by about a week due to a glitch.  No you can't file early but you can file late, if willing to pay the late fine which is not much. You can file online from abroad, if you can cope with the Thai language pop-ups in tiny print

[Dogmatix]

14 hours ago, Lorry said:

There is a video of a discussion about the new tax rules at the French embassy.

Discussion of this video on AN has been blocked twice, because the video is mainly in French. Moderator said an English translation or summary of the video would be ok.

I listened only to the part after 56:17 minutes where the DTA between France and Thailand is discussed  (about pensions), about 6 minutes.

 

Summary:

These 6 minutes are an incredible mess of different opinions in Thai, French and English about what the DTA says. Complete confusion. The participants of the discussion can't agree on the most basic things. 

 

What I take from this is: if the RD does something like this in front of cameras at the French embassy, I can imagine how I would fare if my view of a DTA is different from their views.

There are many on AN, especially Mike Lister, who say don't worry,  the DTAs will protect you. 

Others like me have always said the use of DTAs will be extremely complicated,  laborious and expensive.

The French video most definitely supports my point.

On the other side, I know of one case where a provincial office of the RD was very knowledgeable about a DTA and it was smooth sailing along the lines of Mike Lister et al. Hopefully these people will prevail.

 

This post uses English language only, please do not delete it.

 

 

Clearly things will be extremely chaotic in implementing a most likely unlawful re-interpretation by a bureaucrat without any supporting regulations or preparation whatsoever and involving the application of dozens of slightly different DTAs which RD officers have never had a reason to even look at, let alone fully understand how to implement them. 

 

I was giving some thought to what types of remittance will be easiest to handle and which will, in my humble opinion alone, be least likely to attract unwelcome attention from the RD.  I give my own rankings. Others will have different opinions.

 

1.  Documented loan from offshore company.

2. Gift to spouse.

3. Remittance from balance already in bank account prior to 1 Jan 2024.

4. Remittance of capital gains from stocks where no tax has been paid (this one is easy because no DTA tax credit is available - just pay Thai tax in full.)

4. Remittance of income from employment or pension claiming DTA tax credit.

5. Remittance of dividends or investment gains claiming DTA tax credits.

6. Remittance of rental income on a monthly or quarterly basis. (This one is a complete PITA because you have to file a mid year PND 94 with estimate of full year income as well as year end PND 90. In addition you will have to claim tax credits under DTAs.  Probably best never to remit post 2024 property income, sell the property and/or leave Thailand, if you are dependent on rental income to survive in Thailand.)

 

Just my ideas that don't constitute advice to anyone.

[Dogmatix]

10 hours ago, Everyman said:

Milestones continue to pass without any updates from the revenue department regarding enforcement. Last year everyone was waiting for the new year to hear more. There was nothing. Now everyone is waiting for the six month residency period. There will be nothing. Then they will say “oh, something will be announced by the end of 2024.” When that date passes they will point to the audit period. 

 

Regarding the residency thing, how does TRD know how long you’ve been in the country? With the DTAs as complicated and varied as they are, surely the rule change is minor, so why does everyone think they will suddenly step up enforcement, especially absent any statements to affirm that? How much different is it to prove that monies were earned in a different year than to prove they fall under a DTA provision? If it’s suddenly so critical to get a tax ID number merely based on residency, then why is it also so difficult to get one as compared to someone working in Thailand? 

 

My first thought when I saw the announcement in September was that it was aimed at a few wealthy Thais that have managed to wriggle out of audits based on that rule, not foreign residents or condo investors, even if they are affected under the letter of the law. 

 

For resident that brings in enough money to live on or even buy a [few] condo[s] or build a house for an Isaan girl or even start a small business, there’s not enough reason to do anything at all, and certainly not to “avoid Thai tax residency” which there is no evidence the TRD can track anyway or is interested in tracking. And the consequences down the road if something does get enforced is what…a 2000 baht fine and asserting to TRD that funds fall under a DTA? 

 

I don't think they have the resources to step up resources.  Their inspectors apparently have quite a backlog already. 

[Dogmatix]

I enquired about getting certified statements from a bank where I have an account in HK, not expecting anything.  Two weeks later I finally got a reply saying that certified statements can be ordered for HK$50.  So I will get one for Dec 2023.

[JohnnyBD]

After hearing me talk about the tax on foreign monies remitted for the past couple of months, my wife talked with some of her Thai friends who are married to foreigners. Every one of them said they never filed tax returns before and do not plan to now. If they read these threads, they would probably get a good laugh at how seriously we westerners take this issue. Some of their husbands are not here for 180 days so they are not tax residents, but they send big monies over to their wives. One of them, has several rental units and she said they do not file tax returns. Then I think, what's going to change for them? Who's going to (all of a sudden) knock on their doors to ask them about their finances? I find it kind of interesting, how we take these things more seriously due to our culture, but the Thais do not. And, probably no one will ever go knock on their doors, just like they haven't in the past. This will generate more tax revenues from the westerners who voluntarily file & pay, but for those who don't, maybe nothing will change. While we all can speculate as to some level of enforcement starting, the Thais my wife talked to don't seem to be worried at all. Maybe they know something we westerners do not. Just something to think about.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

After hearing me talk about the tax on foreign monies remitted for the past couple of months, my wife talked with some of her Thai friends who are married to foreigners. Every one of them said they never filed tax returns before and do not plan to now. If they read these threads, they would probably get a good laugh at how seriously we westerners take this issue. Some of their husbands are not here for 180 days so they are not tax residents, but they send big monies over to the wives. One of them, has several rental units and she said they do not file tax returns. Then I think, what's going to change for them? Who's going to (all of a sudden) knock on their doors to ask them about their finances? I just find it interesting, how we take these things more seriously due to our culture, but the Thais do not. And, probably no one will ever go knock on their doors, just like that haven't in the past. This will generate more tax revenues from the westerners who voluntarily file & pay, but for those who don't, maybe nothing will change. While we all can all speculate as to some level of enforcement starting, the Thais my wife talked to don't seem to be worried at all. Maybe they know something we westerners do not. Just something to think about.

How seriously a person ought to take this depends where they are on the risk line. If a person has multiple rental units, and doesn't file a tax return, and has multiple large remittances every year also, their risk level is fairly high. The typical pensioner on the other hand, the guy who remits only his pension every month, is tucked away quite nicely on the low end of the scale. That's not to say that at some point, measures wont be implemented to catch the the high income guy that will also ensnare and inconvenience the average pensioner. I think that's the risk that most people face, collateral damage. Whether or not the average foreigner is more at risk than the average Thai, I imagine that they are. This is simply because one call to Immigration to activate tax clearance certificates and it's game over, the average Thai doesn't face the same threat. 

[Yumthai]

36 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

While we all can speculate as to some level of enforcement starting, the Thais my wife talked to don't seem to be worried at all. Maybe they know something we westerners do not.

Thais know how the things work in their country whereas some foreigners, despite having living in Thailand for years, still can't adapt their formatted mindset.

[BE88]

The question that many ask themselves and I ask myself too is whether we will be asked when we renew our visa if we have filed our taxes? If this is the case, but it remains to be confirmed what will happen in concrete terms, let's assume that I don't declare anything and that they don't give me an extension of the visa, obviously I will have to leave when the visa expires, but I have the possibility of leaving and requesting another visa or Will I be marked as persona non grata? The issues in this case follow one another and could go very distant and not pleasant.

 

For those who are not far behind the 560,000 should ask themselves if the game is worth the risk.

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, BE88 said:

The question that many ask themselves and I ask myself too is whether we will be asked when we renew our visa if we have filed our taxes?

I guess you and those many others will find out when you go to renew your visa. If you're supposed to file and didn't, then you may have something to worry about. If you filed, and they ask you, then you have nothing to worry about, right?

[Dogmatix]

I had a quick butchers at that video of a discussion in French involving French embassy staff and RD officials regarding the Franco Thai DTA.  It is quite funny because the French embassy people were arguing that Section 18 of the DTA says that private pensions from France shall only be taxed in France, while the RD was arguing that it says may be taxable in France which means it may also be taxable in Thailand, which is exactly what the RD intends to do.  Looking at the Thai version it is extremely clear that it says "may be taxable in the first country"  อาจเก็บภาษีได้ในรัฐแรก. Here อาจ or aat definitely means "may be."  Looking at the French version I can see why embassy officials unversed in tax jargon and specifically DTA jargon got confused.  The French version uses the phrase " are taxable in the first country (France)" or "sont imposables dans le premier Etat."  However, in French DTA jargon this phrase "are taxable" has the same meaning as "may be taxed' in boiler plate Section 18s of English language DTAs, ie.  are taxable in the first country and also are taxable in the other country.  This is confirmed by looking at other sections of the Franco Thai DTA where the intent was clearly that certain types of income are taxable only in France.  In these cases the French version inserts the word for only "que", as in "sont imposables que dans le premier Etat."  This is further verified by comparing English and French versions of the Franco UK DTA where it is less likely that there were mismatches between the French and English versions. 

 

So this looks like a case where the RD officials were absolutely correct and the French embassy staff were incompetent because they didn't understand the French version of the DTA and failed to get a briefing from an expert at the French tax department to clarify before going to the meeting. Furthermore Section 19 of the DTA covering pensions paid to former French civil servants which is usually taxable only in the country of origin is also not protected under the French DTA.  So the French negotiators in 1974 must also have been utterly incompetent, as it is possibly the only DTA that doesn't protect government pensions paid to retired civil servants. 

 

I glazed over a bit skimming through the rest of the video after watching that staggering interchange.  But a couple of things I noted were as follows. When asked how to deal with the fact that French taxes are filed in April to June which means that French expats will not have supporting documents to claim tax credits when filing tax returns in March, the RD folk were unable to answer the question and the French speaking lady said they would get back to them at some unspecified date. Another point was that the RD folk said they would accept English translations of French tax documents along with the French originals but didn't mention whether translations would have to be stamped by an embassy and notarised by the Thai foreign ministry or not.  She also said that originals of official French tax receipts would be needed. 

 

Given that many countries, including the UK, have a tax year and filing deadline out of synch with Thailand's which means that taxpayers will not have supporting documents to claim tax credits in March, even if the type of supporting documents the RD will demand are available at all, it shows a spectacular level of unpreparedness that 9 months after the reinterpretation order and half way through the tax year, the RD are unable to answer this question about out of synch tax years and filing deadlines between countries. Also they are clearly going to expect tax receipts certified and stamped manually by overseas tax officials like the ones that they provide but I am not sure how many Western countries can provide these.  Another thing is that saying that English translations will be accepted contradicts what the RD official said in the Swiss Embassy video when he said that actually Thai versions are required but RD officers have the discretion to decide whether to accept English versions but aren't obliged to.  Obviously the Swiss version is correct.  Unless the law says English documents are acceptable, which the RC doesn't, then Thai bureaucrats are under no obligation to accept anything in English.  It is unlikely that the RD will issue an order forcing them to accept English documents, given that most of them are not competent in reading English. 

 

Looking at that video reconfirms my thinking that attempting to claim tax credits for significant amounts of foreign source income should be an absolute last resort, until such a time as a reasonable and unified approach to foreign tax credits is established, i.e. not left to the discretion of individual officers, in the unlikely event that ever happens.  If you go along to a rural RD office and explain that you paid tax in your home country on a million dollars of income that you remitted to Thailand in the tax year but have no documents to prove this because you earned the money in the UK from 6 April to 31 December and won't have any evidence of tax payment for a few months, what is the girl going to tell you?  Quite possible you will be made to pay tax at 35% and told to try and get a refund of tax paid from your home country which might not be possible. 

 

 

[Dogmatix]

52 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I guess you and those many others will find out when you go to renew your visa. If you're supposed to file and didn't, then you may have something to worry about. If you filed, and they ask you, then you have nothing to worry about, right?

 

It takes a long time for government departments to coordinate with each other but If this reinterpretation survives, it seems a no brainer that this will ultimately happen. If you take into account that they expect pensioners to have an income of at least 65k a month (and that number is about 20 years old and overdue for a substantial upward revision to take inflation into account) it is obvious that they feel foreign pensioners are well into the threshold for taxable income after basic deductions.  In the past they demanded tax clearance certificates from expats working in Thailand to let them leave the country and that legislation is still on the books but no longer enforced.  It would not be difficult to either start enforcing that again or make a new Immigration order requiring a tax clearance certificate or certified tax return for visa renewal.  If this survives, I would say you are looking at 5 years grace period before that happens.  If they still haven't sorted out how to do tax clearances or cope with out of synch tax years by then, it will lead to a mass exodus.

[Mike Lister]

A poster in another thread passed comment about the tax guide that made me think, The following is my reply which I'm cross posting here in order to get thoughts and opinions:

 

I recognised some weeks/months ago that the entire document needs to be rewritten/reformatted and structured differently, it has grown because new pieces have been added/inserted piecemeal, to the point where it is now clumsy and confused reading. What I had wanted to do was to provide two parts to each topic, "what the rules say" and "what we think". I haven't had the time to do that recently, mostly because tax thread management has taken up so much of my time......(you know who you are!). If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'll be interested to hear them. Similarly, if there's anyone out there who is interested in participating in this rewrite, please contact me.

[Mike Lister]

Reading some of the recent posts on tax made me realise that several members do not really understand where we are with the tax issue and are looking far beyond what the issues really are. 

 

Somebody wrote, "this tax policy is such a mess that we can expect changes in the future, I think we all know this. There's already been discussion on what the Thai government will have to change for this policy to even have the slightest chance of being even the least bit effective."  

 

The Thai tax system and the Revenue Code (tax rules) have existed for decades. For better or worse, those things represent a system whereby tax is collected, albeit many people pretend it doesn't exist and ignore it. One small change was made to a single tax rule and this has ensnared foreigners into the tax net, along with nationals who were evading it.

 

Today there are two problems. The TRD's problem is the tax net is too small, there aren't enough people in the net, paying tax. The second problem is ours, not the TRD's. The first part of our problem is that we don't understand all the rules and the way the system operates. The second part is that in the absence of that knowledge, some of us seem to expect it will function in the same way the tax system does in our home country or according to our own logic. Those expectations are not realistic. Suggesting that the tax policy is a mess isn't really relevant because it's existed for a long time, anyway, how would we know when we don't fully understand what it comprises and how it operates! 

 

Expecting a change in policy or awaiting some sort of big announcement is a cop out, what those people are really saying is, "I don't understand how the system operates so I will do nothing except wait and see". Trying to fill the knowledge gaps with hypothesis and conjecture is only useful to a degree, beyond that point it breeds paranoia and fear because the "whatiffery" becomes fact in the minds of some people and they begin planning and acting on the basis of assumption, which is a very bad thing.

[BE88]

9 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I guess you and those many others will find out when you go to renew your visa. If you're supposed to file and didn't, then you may have something to worry about. If you filed, and they ask you, then you have nothing to worry about, right?

 

Exactly, if you have made investments in Thailand and they tell you that you have to stay out for a year or three years to avoid paying 5000 in taxes I find it very risky but if you are free to change the country without regrets or losses then try your luck if you have to pay high taxes in Thailand.

 

 

 

[Dogmatix]

One point that is generally overlooked is that many expats living in Thailand off foreign source income were in violation of the Revenue Code prior to the effective date of P. 161/2566. The 1987 ruling clarified that foreign source income remitted to Thailand in the same tax year it was earned was assessable for Thai tax.  Anyone who got their pension remitted direct to Thailand was very obviously required to file a tax return and pay Thai tax, subject of course to DTA tax credits.  If those expats start filing a tax return for the first time in 2025 and the RD sees the evidence of pension being remitted direct to Thailand that was obviously in place before Jan 2024, they are quite entitled to ask how long the expat has been receiving this income in Thailand.  Then they are entitled to do an audit going back 10 years, if tax returns were not filed, and arbitrarily assess tax, penalties and interest. Given that the RD didn't really attempt to enforce the tax on same tax year remittances in the past, it seems unlikely that they will do this now as a matter of policy.  However, as we know that much is left up to the discretion of individual officers and inspectors, some of whom enjoy low hanging fruit, we cannot say the risk of this happening is zero.