Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[4myr]

Almost 2 months have passed since I was actively researching. In this time no real new practical information come out from the TRD to make up a remittance plan, but to wait and see and go with the flow. 

 

I'll call a few renowned tax agents whether they're willing to help me to convince TRD office and file taxes so that I'll receive the Dutch DTA tax exemptions (director fees, profit house sale abroad) I deserve for the next couple of years until my retirement.

 

From retirement on no exemptions can be had, only tax credits. So no impact on extra taxation expected. Then I expect the world to change in terms of world income taxation and DTA changes.

 

[stat]

8 hours ago, Yumthai said:

 

From what I read from the English translation of the the German link you post, individuals face legal consequences if they provide a false address with the intention of deceiving the bank and if they submit or prepare falsified documents in connection with the address specification.

Not if you did not update details after moving.

 

What happens if I move, but do not inform my bank about my new address?

If you move and do not inform your bank of your new address, you risk not receiving important notifications and information from the bank. This can lead to an incorrect assessment of your financial situation and possibly losses. In addition, the missing / incorrect information may have a negative impact on regulatory audits or when evaluating your creditworthiness.

 

Same for US and I assume any country, you face legal consequences if you intentionally make a false statement/doc.

 

However if you open an account in a country you were resident then move later without notifying the bank, it's not a crime.

That was my point.

 

I guess most of foreigners residing in Thailand keep offshore/home country bank accounts with local address as I do, not intentionally but per convenience, are they all criminals?

 

Working in bank does not make you a lawyer either.

I provided you free of charge with the laws you asked for. If you chose to ignore them up to you. The laws are very clear. Stated ib the law and in the fine print of the bank that you have to update the information immediately! The bank is liable to pay taxes back if for example you claim shelter under a DBA which you are not allowed to claim.

 

That you do not receive inportant info is just one of the points mentioned, why you chose to mention only one item is a mystery to me.

 

 

All I want to do here is to show there is a risk and it is against the law. Can you get away with it, quite likely yes. However Banks are starting to demand yearly proof of your residence.

 

I am not working in a bank I consult banks on legal matters and tax laws, what do you do for a living that puts you in a position to give qualified advice on this issue?

 

 

Edited June 11 by stat

[Mike Lister]

29 minutes ago, stat said:

I provided you free of charge with the laws you asked for. If you chose to ignore them up to you. The laws are very clear. Stated ib the law and in the fine print of the bank that you have to update the information immediately! The bank is liable to pay taxes back if for example you claim shelter under a DBA which you are not allowed to claim.

 

That you do not receive inportant info is just one of the points mentioned, why you chose to mention only one item is a mystery to me.

 

 

All I want to do here is to show there is a risk and it is against the law. Can you get away with it, quite likely yes. However Banks are starting to demand yearly proof of your residence.

 

I am not working in a bank I consult banks on legal matters and tax laws, what do you do for a living that puts you in a position to give qualified advice on this issue?

 

 

You lost that fight the moment you played the, don't you know who I am/what I do card.

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

You lost that fight the moment you played the, don't you know who I am/what I do card.

 

Pulling rank on Aseannow!

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, stat said:

I provided you free of charge with the laws you asked for. If you chose to ignore them up to you. The laws are very clear. Stated ib the law and in the fine print of the bank that you have to update the information immediately! The bank is liable to pay taxes back if for example you claim shelter under a DBA which you are not allowed to claim.

 

That you do not receive inportant info is just one of the points mentioned, why you chose to mention only one item is a mystery to me.

 

 

All I want to do here is to show there is a risk and it is against the law. Can you get away with it, quite likely yes. However Banks are starting to demand yearly proof of your residence.

 

I am not working in a bank I consult banks on legal matters and tax laws, what do you do for a living that puts you in a position to give qualified advice on this issue?

Again, not updating your bank address is not a crime. I suggest you take advice from a real Lawyer.

[stat]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You lost that fight the moment you played the, don't you know who I am/what I do card.

Glad to see you are no longer who you used to be so I can put you on the ignore list again 🙂

Edited June 11 by stat

[stat]

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Again, not updating your bank address is not a crime. I suggest you take advice from a real Lawyer.

You are aware that stating you are a lawyer if you are not is a crime in itself? I am a 100% sure you are not a lawyer cause no lawyer would state something like the above without a million caveats!

 

Anyway everyone who wants to know can check for themself as I provided some links to US and German legal obligations.

 

Another add on the ignore list Yumthai

Edited June 11 by stat

[Mike Teavee]

7 hours ago, stat said:

You are aware that stating you are a lawyer if you are not is a crime in itself? I am a 100% sure you are not a lawyer cause no lawyer would state something like the above without a million caveats!

 

Anyway everyone who wants to know can check for themself as I provided some links to US and German legal obligations.

 

Another add on the ignore list Yumthai

Maybe it's because English isn't your 1st language but you seem to have a problem with your interpretation of what people are posting. 

 

@Yumthai posted "Again, not updating your bank address is not a crime. I suggest you take advice from a real Lawyer." - which In no way says that they are claiming to be a Lawyer, just advising that you might want to take advice from one... or is it illegal to recommend somebody "take advice from a real Lawyer" in your world? 

 

[Mike Teavee]

On 6/10/2024 at 5:00 PM, stat said:

Why you would you bother to keep a wrong tax residence if you would not end up paying taxes in the end anyway? There are some exceptions to this I can think of but they would be very rare IMHO.

 

Yet again your post has absolutely  nothing to do with the point I've made 3 times now... Not filing a tax return does not mean you're committing Tax Evasion, it's a very simple point & you would think that somebody who worked in the "International Tax Field" would be capable of understanding it. 

 

You would also think that they would understand that the majority of Expats don't deliberately set out to maintain a "Wrong Tax Residence" but are either taxed globally (US Citizens) or are taxed on income arising in their home country (UK Citizens) irrespective of where they are Tax Resident. 

  

Edited June 11 by Mike Teavee

[Presnock]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:12 AM, roobaa01 said:

Gday

Another aspect pertaining the Thai tax horror the Global income taxation like mentioned in the Bangkok post article. There are foreigners who are still a resident of their home country i.e. Germany . German tax law stipulates as long as you maintain a legal address registration as first residence one is subject pay tax by law in Germany. 

So how would that play out if Thailand amending the law to global income . USA similar.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 Germans paying taxes in German would have to show taxes paid by German tax forms (translated into English if necessary to understand), same as with any country and a DTA about double taxation and how to deal with it.  USA is no problem for me as DTA is very clear on taxation of GOVT pension.  Other taxes are also covered in the DTA between Thailand and the US.

[Presnock]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:25 PM, Yumthai said:

You can have offshore accounts registered with a legit offshore address at the time you opened it. Not updating a bank account address is not illegal nor tax evasion. If banks ask you can just ignore it. At some point they may threat to close your account and eventually close it, this is the worst thing that can happen.

googling giving a false address to a bank shows many different situations while seemingly not a criminal act but a big if any "fraudulent" intention when giving a false address to a bank then according to almost every way can lead to serious legal problems.  Now that the OECD of July 2023 has been signed by 138 countries, many of those countries will probably be looking closely at these "small" details to see if folks continue cheating or not.  I also note that not all folks care about following the law when it comes to their money but hope folks do follow up on what could be legal or illegal as the tax laws are

changing here and other places.  Since US banks must notify the feds about people with foreign residences, Americans must notify the feds of foreign bank accounts, etc and for Americans to avail the use

of DTAs with foreign countries, knowingly using a false address to avoid taxation can be a serious legal matter.  Google is an amazing source of info if people only care to use it.  Not knowing the laws can have a negative effect on one's future and is not a legal excuse.  Just saying.

[BusNo8]

On 6/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 

I have always suspected this would be one avenue. Not only that but I would wager we don't simply show up with tax form completed for year (or the preceding) but we will all need to go get a d pay for a form that states we are clear / have paid.

 

Taxing us on interest here is criminal at < 1% but we now have additional issue of calculating it however (??) bank printout (b200) lol.

 

If I wasn't married no way I'd stay on. Absolutely no way

[BusNo8]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

Americans must notify the feds of foreign bank accounts, etc and for Americans to avail the use

of DTAs

 

I think this is just when total annual amount is + 10k USD within that year. That's facta

[Presnock]

39 minutes ago, BusNo8 said:

 

I think this is just when total annual amount is + 10k USD within that year. That's facta

not really familiar with the CRS nor facta - only know that the banks foreward data to feds.  I have done tax forms for more than 60 years, then added the FBAR whenever that started...I just include my entire monies remitted into my foreign bank account whether or not it exceeds 10K in any particular month as I am not concerned with reporting of my financial status/activity with the US feds - heard too many stories of folks thinking they could get away with not following the rules..ie AL Capone!  I was raised to obey the rules especially of taxes and of telling the truth.   These new OECD, CSR, FACTA, FBAR's etc all are basically coming after those folks who have avoided paying their taxes to some place.  We ever have folks bragging about that very fact on this OPEN forum.  I hope they get caught as they need to pay their fair share SOMEWHERE in my opinion as I am not a fan of taxes but am realistic in the need for taxation.

[Presnock]

On 6/6/2024 at 12:14 AM, UKresonant said:

I would need a float of money equivelent to being double taxed and not having that money for a good few months thinking of the Thai/UK scenario. The bottom line may be no double tax, after filing all the forms out ( and losing how many days ).

agree that some sort of adjusting reporting times etc as too many countries probably have different tax reporting schedules.  Even the US gives overseas workers extra time for reporting though I am unsure as to why since I have always done my taxes upon receipt of the amount of funds received and taxes paid each year thus by the end of January of each year my taxes have been filed - this year I even received my refund by early February!  I also have heard on this forum that some country's taxes are filed at different times than those of Thailand - perhaps they will think about that too but then again maybe they won't care at all.  This is also why everyone needs to understand how they fare under the DTA with their own country sooner rather than later.  Good luck to all.

[Presnock]

On 6/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

That could be strange based on the current requirement for obtaining a Thai tax ID number when one will never have assessable income in Thailand.  I am of that category both by visa and/or  DTA so I need the Thai revenue department come out with a change to the Thai tax law about obtaining an ID number and or no assessable income  in Thailand.  Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Presnock]

On 6/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

Other changes to the Thai tax laws need to come into play before this mix with immigration takes place.  Many folks do not have to obtain a tax id number nor file for Thai taxes so they need to work that scenario out too before they get immigration involved - can only imagine how the IO's would not like this new requirement.

[Presnock]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:25 PM, Yumthai said:

You can have offshore accounts registered with a legit offshore address at the time you opened it. Not updating a bank account address is not illegal nor tax evasion. If banks ask you can just ignore it. At some point they may threat to close your account and eventually close it, this is the worst thing that can happen.

In the US, if one gives incorrect address for account, the address is provided to the feds during CRS or FACTA or whatever and if they THINK it is to prevent proper taxation then they will audit and possibly file a fraud case in which whoever doesn't provide the updated address of an account could be in serious jeopardy.  Fraud and US taxes have brought down rich and powerful people in the past - Al Capone for one.  Just saying, as I am no fan of taxes but as Ben Franklin mentioned in 1775 or so - "the only constant in life (or words to that effect) are death and taxes".

[Presnock]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:41 PM, Yumthai said:

This is legal requirements for financial institutions not customers of the FI.

Customers have to follow FI policy/terms and conditions. If they don't, penalty may be account closure. No more no less.

google fraud and providing banks with incorrect address in dealing with US banking.  If they suspect fraud then one could be in trouble.

[Presnock]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:32 PM, Celsius said:

 

I will not go down in flames. My wife actually works, she puts me on her tax and receives a tax refund as her dependant. I will gladly show the immigration the tax she pays every year supporting me.

 

As for me, I will not pay then 1 baht.

Then you seem to be one of those that has cause the OECD, CRS, FACTA, FABA etc (at least on the US side) that has avoided paying taxes required by your either resident or tax resident status.  While you may avoid filing for taxes in the future, I think bragging about it on an open forum could cost you.  Maybe not but breaking the laws whether in your home country or here in Thailand is not correct.

[Presnock]

On 6/10/2024 at 8:50 AM, Yumthai said:

 

The OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises on Responsible Business Conduct are recommendations addressed by governments to multinational enterprises.

OECD rules do not mention legal obligations for individuals.

 

Self-certification is for account opening, not updating. Again, what penalty does the account holder face? Legal risks may exist for financial institutions for not gathering correct information from their customers.

 

Can you bring a Law article (any country) stating that bank customers (individuals) face tax evasion or legal fines/jail terms because they didn't update their bank information personal address?

 

basically how I was raised, one is supposed to be honest and advising banks of change of address is being honest but not reporting it in order to avoid taxes is fraud whether or not one feels that one cannot escape that fact.  If the fed were to audit you and learn you did not report that change of address then a fraud case could be opened.  easy to find data on that just by using the google search function.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, BusNo8 said:

 

I think this is just when total annual amount is + 10k USD within that year. That's facta

you must also advise the govt that you do have a foreign bankj account on your 1040 tax form!  while you don't have to put any FBAR reporting on less than 10K for any one month, the feds would recognize you have a foreign bank acct and could always check for possble fraud reporting.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

Yet again your post has absolutely  nothing to do with the point I've made 3 times now... Not filing a tax return does not mean you're committing Tax Evasion, it's a very simple point & you would think that somebody who worked in the "International Tax Field" would be capable of understanding it. 

 

You would also think that they would understand that the majority of Expats don't deliberately set out to maintain a "Wrong Tax Residence" but are either taxed globally (US Citizens) or are taxed on income arising in their home country (UK Citizens) irrespective of where they are Tax Resident. 

  

tax avoidance is fraud and fraud is still fraud when one intentionally doesn't follow the rules whether or not agree with them or dislike them.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Maybe it's because English isn't your 1st language but you seem to have a problem with your interpretation of what people are posting. 

 

@Yumthai posted "Again, not updating your bank address is not a crime. I suggest you take advice from a real Lawyer." - which In no way says that they are claiming to be a Lawyer, just advising that you might want to take advice from one... or is it illegal to recommend somebody "take advice from a real Lawyer" in your world? 

 

In the US one also has to report that he/she has a foreign bank account on the tax forms they must file each year.  To ignoring that would be to be ignoring the tax law.

[Yumthai]

7 minutes ago, Presnock said:

In the US, if one gives incorrect address for account, the address is provided to the feds during CRS or FACTA or whatever and if they THINK it is to prevent proper taxation then they will audit and possibly file a fraud case in which whoever doesn't provide the updated address of an account could be in serious jeopardy.  Fraud and US taxes have brought down rich and powerful people in the past - Al Capone for one.  Just saying, as I am no fan of taxes but as Ben Franklin mentioned in 1775 or so - "the only constant in life (or words to that effect) are death and taxes".

I agree with providing false information will lead to legal issues.

 

I assume you see the nuance between opening a bank account with legit residence information in country A then move to country B (quitting tax residence in country A) and ignoring to update country A bank details.

 

I know countless of US Non Resident Aliens (non tax resident in US) holding US personal bank accounts opened with legit US address. It seems they are for now not facing legal charges in US.

 

Fraud and tax evasion is another matter not linked with the simple fact of holding an offshore bank account registered with local address.

 

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

I agree with providing false information will lead to legal issues.

 

I assume you see the nuance between opening a bank account with legit residence information in country A then move to country B (quitting tax residence in country A) and ignoring to update country A bank details.

 

I know countless of US Non Resident Aliens (non tax resident in US) holding US personal bank accounts opened with legit US address. It seems they are for now not facing legal charges in US.

 

Fraud and tax evasion is another matter not linked with the simple fact of holding an offshore bank account registered with local address.

 

I understand that not providing a change of address to the bank in order to avoid paying taxes somewhere is FRAUD whether or not you believe that.  In the US one advises via the 1040 also that he has a foreign bank acct and if the govt learns that a correct address is not provided to the bank then that person could be charged with fraud.  You must be one of the avoiders that the OECD, CRS etc was created to find.  Strange you would claim this on an open forum.

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You lost that fight the moment you played the, don't you know who I am/what I do card.

Fraud is still fraud by any definition.  If one fails to advise banks of their current address or change of address in order to avoid paying any taxes, that is by definition FRAUD! in any country, Germany or the US too.

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

I understand that not providing a change of address to the bank in order to avoid paying taxes somewhere is FRAUD whether or not you believe that.  In the US one advises via the 1040 also that he has a foreign bank acct and if the govt learns that a correct address is not provided to the bank then that person could be charged with fraud.  You must be one of the avoiders that the OECD, CRS etc was created to find.  Strange you would claim this on an open forum.

Form 1040 is used by U.S. taxpayers not US non resident for tax purposes. Actually US is the main tax haven for non US persons.

FYI, tax avoidance is perfectly legal.

 

 

 

[Celsius]

39 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Then you seem to be one of those that has cause the OECD, CRS, FACTA, FABA etc (at least on the US side) that has avoided paying taxes required by your either resident or tax resident status.  While you may avoid filing for taxes in the future, I think bragging about it on an open forum could cost you.  Maybe not but breaking the laws whether in your home country or here in Thailand is not correct.

 

I pay a 25% non-resident tax back in my country.

 

How about you stop making assumptions?

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

tax avoidance is fraud and fraud is still fraud when one intentionally doesn't follow the rules whether or not agree with them or dislike them.

Tax avoidance is not fraud, Tax Evasion is fraud & you are not evading tax if you fail to file a return because you have no tax due. 

 

I've remitted 235,000 THB this year & have allowances of 95K (60k personal allowance + 35K allowance for purchasing health insurance) + the 1st 150K after this is tax free so even if all of the money I remitted was taxable in Thailand I would still owe no tax... BUT, I have remitted over 120K THB of assessable income so I should file a tax return. 

 

Hence, I am not evading (or avoiding) tax BUT I could be fined 2,000B for not filing a return.