Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[jwest10]

18 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree with what @Klonko wrote, I that the chances of small fish running into difficulty with the TRD is quite small. One problem here however is the random nature of things which can cause collateral damage. Another is the anti-foreigner sentiment in some quarters which may be a catalyst for some random TRD employee to be vindictive.

 

Let me say something finally that really shouldn't need saying: I will be ecstatic if a reliable authoritative source, (Big 4, Sherings, Mazars or similar) was to put in writing that my interpretation is wrong and breaching the assessible income threshold alone, is not sufficient cause to file a return. It would mean we have a reliable answer that almost everyone could hang their hat on with confidence, rather than just piecemeal anecdotes. As things stand, we don't have that reliability and all the written evidence points in the other direction. 

 

Break time....blast away.

Mike hang fire for the moment and no one knows what is what and doubt the  Revenue tax people  do either and 61 DTA's
Yes and again yesterday our Thai friends do file a tax form but they are of the same opinion about the personal allowances and no form but believe there is somewhere .
Think and sure Sherings mentioned the over 65 (OAE) allowance of 190k and yes seen the 120k and 200k allowance on the Thai  tax form
We await clarification as stated and until an official decision is made we can not do much.

[tarheeldan]

4 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

When I realized the tax the tax implications for my ROTH conversions and also the future distributions (tax free in the USA but 100% taxable in Thailand), not to mention my monthly rental income from the USA... Thailand just died for me personally and was immediately removed as my permanent retirement location.

 

 

Thankfully still remittance based for now, but I'll be watching closely and remaining flexible

[jwest10]

13 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I have a consultation with of one of the big 4 in about a month’s time. I will certainly be extremely interested in the detail of the requirements to file a tax return. I am probably in an enviable position that I am able to structure the income I transfer to be able to bring it over the assessable threshold but under the threshold to actually pay tax. I am not going to go into detail as to how this is possible as that is irrelevant to virtually every other taxpayer, my situation is probably limited to a small handful of people non of whom reside outside the U.K. 
 

However having given a 5 minute rundown of my situation I was told that I will almost certainly not have to complete a tax return as I will be within the tax free allowance. This opinion was from a Tax Director of one of the big 4 and naturally it may change after a detailed tax assessment and consultation. If anyone wants they can contact me after the 8th of August. I doubt that I can give any other information that is not speculative before then.

sometimewoodworker

Thanks for this and yes my understanding through the various tax experts and accounting firms have differing opinions and yes many will be under the persona allowance allowed and some are listed in Sherings like the over 65 (OAE) 190k and the 120 or 200 personal alliances in the Thai forms.
Nany have told us that there will be updates and also a from for personal tax allowances later on this year?

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Mike hang fire for the moment and no one knows what is what and doubt the  Revenue tax people  do either and 61 DTA's
Yes and again yesterday our Thai friends do file a tax form but they are of the same opinion about the personal allowances and no form but believe there is somewhere .
Think and sure Sherings mentioned the over 65 (OAE) allowance of 190k and yes seen the 120k and 200k allowance on the Thai  tax form
We await clarification as stated and until an official decision is made we can not do much.

There's no need to hold fire on anything, you are at least 6 months away from needing to file a tax return, if you even have to file one at all. You need to be a little bit patient and watch as answers slowly emerge.

[jwest10]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There's no need to hold fire on anything, you are at least 6 months away from needing to file a tax return, if you even have to file one at all. You need to be a little bit patient and watch as answers slowly emerge.

Cheers, Mike and so many thanks again and really appreciate it and yes agree with you and think most  ex-pats earn less than the personal allowances and listed all over the place.

[sometimewoodworker]

25 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Nany have told us that there will be updates and also a from for personal tax allowances later on this year?

The tax return documents for the 2024 tax year are in preparation for printing and publishing, this is due to be finalised and published in November December, it is likely that the website will be revised at the same time. I have no idea if any allowances are due for revision but if they are I would anticipate that they will be published at the same time as the tax return documents 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Random bank clerk and government tax officer not same-same!

 

Bank clerk is lazy or incompetent, can't or won't do the job.  A minimum wage clerk is not an authority.

 

Tax officer IS the local authority.  If the desk officer and her district supervisor, and the provincial office agree, no filing needed........well, no, some clerk at Kasikorn couldn't be bothered to do FATCA forms for a foreigner?

Excellent point and in fact very on point for me.  We went into the local bank this week (just moved from another Province) to open two bank accounts with a bank that we both had accounts in the previous Province, and the bank clerk initially said no for me as I needed all new documents and Immigration 'proof'.  She listened to what myself and the Wife said and agreed to ask her Boss. She did that and when she came back she said 'OK'.   Me thinks like you, and a tax 'officer' is going to be far more 'hardened' and will not lose face by going and asking the Boss.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 hours ago, tarheeldan said:

I should be joining y'all in Thailand next year, hopefully, so I've been following this thread closely. I think I have a pretty good handle on what the tax implications would be for my particular situation on a remittance basis once I become a tax resident - based on what's on paper from TRD

 

There's been two perspectives I've seen through the thread:

1. Going by the book, what's on paper

2. This is Thailand - let's see what actual practice is

 

As someone who lived in Thailand in 1994-1998 and has been coming "home" every 2-3 years since, it seems to me that as Thailand develops, and now with ambitions to join the OECD, things are going to be come increasingly less 2. and more 1.  I'll be keen to see if we get any more detail on treatment of expats as we get closer to the end of the year, and also how the 2024 tax filing season goes next spring. I'm advising family who qualify to look into the LTR WP visa. 

 

In the meantime, my plan is to hedge: move in 2025 but not be a tax resident (<180 days) and remit sufficient funds for 2026 or even 2027 so as not to need to remit further funds above the threshold to require a tax filing. The wind looks to be blowing towards OECD and future tax resident taxation on WW income, and I'll be prepared to split my time between 2-3 countries (still with ~175 days in BKK) if that's the case

 

If that becomes a pain, I should also be able to minimize realizing capital gains such that the tax burden to Thailand isn't too onerous and live year-round, but it would still be expensive as I believe Thailand will view Roth Conversions as taxable income, and since they also don't recognize Roth accounts so the final distributions will be taxable as well 😕

Good thinking mate - and anyone else with 'investments' needs to think carefully too about whether to live/stay in Thailand.  I am hopeful they will back off and give Foreigners exemption, but at the very least I hope that they will not pursue enforcement. But as soon as any Expat is hauled into their local TRD Office and is asked to explain all their remittances into Thailand in the last year (as advised to them by banks etc.), then we all know this aint going to be let go.  If they ever do move to a global system, then that is the end of Thailand for me and a lot of retired/married Expats. Like you I am planning ahead for both scenarios - only taxing remittances could be OK - but taxing worldwide is unacceptable. Even the USA only taxes worldwide income for full Residents and Citizens (not Foreigners living/working in the country).   

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The tax return documents for the 2024 tax year are in preparation for printing and publishing, this is due to be finalised and published in November December, it is likely that the website will be revised at the same time. I have no idea if any allowances are due for revision but if they are I would anticipate that they will be published at the same time as the tax return documents 

Thanks for information and hope in English too!!

[Raindancer]

19 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes to number 2.   My assessable income was reduced by the DTA provisions, and then after deductions and allowances my tax paid was zero. I am married so that included doing a joint return and my Thai Wife earns no income. 

Many thanks for clarifying.

[stat]

16 hours ago, Phulublub said:

How many times does it need to be said that the vast majority of expats will have zero, or near zero, tax to pay and this new measure is not aimed at us at all, but at wealthy Thais offshoring income and bringing it back without incurring any taxes?

 

We do need to be mindful that we follow the rules and understand our own personal circumstances wrt assessable income and DTAs, but that's about it.

 

PH

Only true if you do not have any income or IRA account or etc...

[stat]

10 hours ago, Presnock said:

Well having worked in organizations within the govt, one is given a buget amount for a period of time based on needs.  I one tries to expand the number the workers in order to do more, then the govt usually does not provide any extra funds for the extra workers - what happens is normally either work is not done or workers are fuloughed.  This is especially true if the govt has no funds to start with so they normally tell the organizations to do more with less.  Heard it many times over the years I was working for the govt and doing budgets while being given increased tasking every year.  Just sayiing

Apparently you were in the right part of governement.

 

Usually Parkinson's law applies:

 

Parkinson's law can refer to either of two observations, published in 1955 by the naval historian C. Northcote Parkinson as an essay in The Economist:^[1]

• "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion",
• the number of workers within public administration, bureaucracy or officialdom tends to grow, regardless of the amount of work to be done. This was attributed mainly to two factors: that officials want subordinates, not rivals, and that officials make work for each other.

The first paragraph of the essay mentioned the first meaning above as a "commonplace observation", and the rest of the essay was devoted to the latter observation, terming it "Parkinson's Law".

[stat]

6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

There's no need to hold fire on anything, you are at least 6 months away from needing to file a tax return, if you even have to file one at all. You need to be a little bit patient and watch as answers slowly emerge.

If you stayed in TH until now you are already a tax resident for 2024 and fully liable to comply with the tax laws. So any planing needs to have been done by now

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, stat said:

If you stayed in TH until now you are already a tax resident for 2024 and fully liable to comply with the tax laws. So any planing needs to have been done by now

Planning yes, filing tax returns no, not until January.

 

 

[stat]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good thinking mate - and anyone else with 'investments' needs to think carefully too about whether to live/stay in Thailand.  I am hopeful they will back off and give Foreigners exemption, but at the very least I hope that they will not pursue enforcement. But as soon as any Expat is hauled into their local TRD Office and is asked to explain all their remittances into Thailand in the last year (as advised to them by banks etc.), then we all know this aint going to be let go.  If they ever do move to a global system, then that is the end of Thailand for me and a lot of retired/married Expats. Like you I am planning ahead for both scenarios - only taxing remittances could be OK - but taxing worldwide is unacceptable. Even the USA only taxes worldwide income for full Residents and Citizens (not Foreigners living/working in the country).   

There are quite a lot of (european) countries that tax worldwide income even if you are not a citizen or "full"  resident, actually in this part of the world it is the norm. However as long as there are other options taxwise in Asia TH will lose out on the "rich" expats. As usually Germany takes the cake as from the first second you want to stay for longer then 3 Months in GER or have an abode BAM you pay German taxes on every penny of your ww income.

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

Apparently you were in the right part of governement.

 

Usually Parkinson's law applies:

 

Parkinson's law can refer to either of two observations, published in 1955 by the naval historian C. Northcote Parkinson as an essay in The Economist:^[1]

• "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion",
• the number of workers within public administration, bureaucracy or officialdom tends to grow, regardless of the amount of work to be done. This was attributed mainly to two factors: that officials want subordinates, not rivals, and that officials make work for each other.

The first paragraph of the essay mentioned the first meaning above as a "commonplace observation", and the rest of the essay was devoted to the latter observation, terming it "Parkinson's Law".

yeah obviously as we never had enough workers as when ever oversight was done, they always promised more money and more workers and it turned out the opposite result every time!

 

[Captain Flack]

I have removed a reported baiting post, which contained a personal reference to another poster, which appears only to be trying to get a reaction. Please keep the discussion on topic without the need to bait and bicker with each other.

[geisha]

20 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Bugger - that is a tough situation.  Couple of things to consider.

Many other countries nearby (if he likes the weather etc here) dont tax his money.

If he sells his house in UK and brings that money into Thailand it is taxable - big time. 

Sorry - but Thailand is NOT the place to come if he is bringing money into Thailand from sale of a house.

IMO Thailand is not the place to come if you are retired - if this was happening in 2012 I would have retired somewhere else.

Sorry - it is what it is and your family member is definitely not suitable for Thailand. Whilst most of us can handle whatever happens if we are audited etc. I would suggest if any chance of that happening then dont live here. 

Thanks, but as I said , he would prefer to sell the house , but he would not bring the money into Thailand as he has a very good bank in the UK that he trusts and where he also has his life savings invested. His plan is/ was transferring around 2500 to 3000 £ a month ( depending on how the care home wants to be paid) to a Thai bank account. (  Of course that’s excluding a visa and health insurance) So, for example , he would receive a total of not more than 36000£ every year into Thailand, how can we find out if he’s going to be taxed on this amount , and by how much. 
He has traveled extensively all his life so he’s not a naive traveler and the Care home seems great. He’s fed up with the UK weather , and gets bored , he’d be better off in Thailand with a pool and good weather and lots of activities proposed.

He could always stay under the 6 months as I proposed and avoid tax. Otherwise we have a lot of family in Australia where he could live very near them . He’d prefer Thailand.

its just the missing info on the tax situation . Thanks.

[stat]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Impaired recall comes with age and lifestyle, which is why it's necessary to remind some members periodically of the things we've learned previously, this is one such instance. The following is one of many quotations available on the web:

 

13.4.2. Statute of Limitations
The statute of limitations for an audit is generally 2 years from the date the relevant tax return was submitted. For cases of suspected tax avoidance or evasion, it is extended to 5 years. If no tax return is filed, the statute of limitation is 10 years.

 

There is no statute of limitations for tax collection.

 

https://orbitax.com/taxhub/countrychapters/TH/Thailand/e5f4c7d16b644b02bdb68eb4bbc3ab94/Statute-of-Limitations-1483

 

IF you have filed every year for the past 10 years AND you have all the associated paperwork, the above is not a significant risk for many, the potential downstream problem are however several fold. The first is that accepted practise to excuse non-filers who don't owe tax, could easily become unaccepted practise, at a moment notice and without warning. It could also easily become unaccepted practise on a case by case basis, based on the whim of a TRD employee. The bigger risk, I think, is that the authorities would probably only exercise this as an option of last resort, in the event they wanted to nail you for something but couldn't get you any other way. It's similar in concept to the way in which Al Capone was finally caught for tax evasion, because they couldn't convict him of bootlegging.

 

Nobody should get too excited about this aspect but everyone needs to be aware of it and should factor it into their decision about whether to file a return or not, when there is no tax to pay but the assessable threshold has been breached. For me personally, the potential risk of those audits hanging over my head, far outweighs the 15 minutes of effort required to file a tax return every year, but that's just me, your mileage might vary.

 

 

 

Pls elaborate how you did  a thai tax return in 15 minutes and if any remitted income was part of it. For some reason you did not like my inital post so I rephrase that you do not get offended every time I question a post of yours.

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, stat said:

Pls elaborate how you did  a thai tax return in 15 minutes and if any remitted income was part of it. For some reason you did not like my inital post so I rephrase that you do not get offended every time I question a post of yours.

You seem to find it necessary to respond to / question my posts every single day, even though you're not the person being addressed. When you do that every day, as you do, in forum terms that known as trolling and stalking. 

 

Stop following me, stop trying to be so argumentative and trying to start fights, I'm not interested in any form of communication with you, on any subject.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, stat said:

If you stayed in TH until now you are already a tax resident for 2024 and fully liable to comply with the tax laws. So any planing needs to have been done by now

Yes indeed - either way you think to go (lodge or not lodge) if you are a tax resident it is wise to plan and prepare.  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, stat said:

There are quite a lot of (european) countries that tax worldwide income even if you are not a citizen or "full"  resident, actually in this part of the world it is the norm. However as long as there are other options taxwise in Asia TH will lose out on the "rich" expats. As usually Germany takes the cake as from the first second you want to stay for longer then 3 Months in GER or have an abode BAM you pay German taxes on every penny of your ww income.

Wow - Germany is definitely not a place to visit for longer than 3 months.  

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, geisha said:

Thanks, but as I said , he would prefer to sell the house , but he would not bring the money into Thailand as he has a very good bank in the UK that he trusts and where he also has his life savings invested. His plan is/ was transferring around 2500 to 3000 £ a month ( depending on how the care home wants to be paid) to a Thai bank account. (  Of course that’s excluding a visa and health insurance) So, for example , he would receive a total of not more than 36000£ every year into Thailand, how can we find out if he’s going to be taxed on this amount , and by how much. 
He has traveled extensively all his life so he’s not a naive traveler and the Care home seems great. He’s fed up with the UK weather , and gets bored , he’d be better off in Thailand with a pool and good weather and lots of activities proposed.

He could always stay under the 6 months as I proposed and avoid tax. Otherwise we have a lot of family in Australia where he could live very near them . He’d prefer Thailand.

its just the missing info on the tax situation . Thanks.

Ok of course - not saying dont sell the house.  As long as you know that Thailand might tax incoming remittances from UK that are from the sale of a property (made after 1 Jan 2024), and if they do ever implement a worldwide system then they will definitely look to tax that money for the sale of the house.  If he is old and frail (nor or later) moving in and out of Thailand to avoid taxation is not a wise move IMO - moving can be very stressful for the very aged.  Queensland is a good option - small Regional town on the coast - Sunshine Coast, Townsville, Cairns? If enough money then go to north Brisbane. 

[Mike Lister]

A post from @Dogmatix in another thread where he asks the TRD officer if anyone who exceeds the threshold but doesn't need to pay tax, must file a tax return. The TRD response is that they must and that any advice to the contrary, from any source, is highly inappropriate..

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Pls elaborate how you did  a thai tax return in 15 minutes and if any remitted income was part of it. For some reason you did not like my inital post so I rephrase that you do not get offended every time I question a post of yours.

 

Hi!  I'll answer that. 

 

Last week wife and I went to our local tax office to update my TIN card with a new address.  I was told since I have a pink ID, I use that number when filing.  District office called provincial office to have my pink ID number entered into the e-filing system.  Tax office lady said given my remittances were not assessable (all prior savings), that I did NOT need to file, unless I wanted to apply for refund of tax paid (interest and dividends).

 

A couple days later, wife and I logged onto the system and set up my e-filing account.  A few days later (on Sunday) we logged on again and filed three returns (2021, 2022, 2023). 

 

No assessable remitted income.  Claimed interest from BKK Bank and SET dividends, along with tax withheld.  Less than 15 minutes per return, mostly due to cut'n'pasting into online translator.  No documents required to upload. 

 

 

[Klonko]

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

A post from @Dogmatix in another thread where he asks the TRD officer if anyone who exceeds the threshold but doesn't need to pay tax, must file a tax return. The TRD response is that they must and that any advice to the contrary, from any source, is highly inappropriate..

 

 

Does the TRD not only relate to assessable income from employment, which is not relevant for retirees, due to the connex with tax withheld by the employer?

Edited July 12 by Klonko

[Phulublub]

3 hours ago, geisha said:

Thanks, but as I said , he would prefer to sell the house , but he would not bring the money into Thailand as he has a very good bank in the UK that he trusts and where he also has his life savings invested. His plan is/ was transferring around 2500 to 3000 £ a month ( depending on how the care home wants to be paid) to a Thai bank account. (  Of course that’s excluding a visa and health insurance) So, for example , he would receive a total of not more than 36000£ every year into Thailand, how can we find out if he’s going to be taxed on this amount , and by how much. 
He has traveled extensively all his life so he’s not a naive traveler and the Care home seems great. He’s fed up with the UK weather , and gets bored , he’d be better off in Thailand with a pool and good weather and lots of activities proposed.

He could always stay under the 6 months as I proposed and avoid tax. Otherwise we have a lot of family in Australia where he could live very near them . He’d prefer Thailand.

its just the missing info on the tax situation . Thanks.

If he can obtain a statement of his savings as at 31 Dec 23, and only transfer those assets, then they will not be assessable income. The proceeds from his house sale can remain outside Thailand and are therefore not subject to these regulations.(perhaps opening a separate account so he can, if ever necessary, clearly demonstrate this).

 

This assumes the house is his PPR and no CGT has been paid - if not that MAY be another avenue under which the UK/Thailand DTA MAY kick in (I have no idea, but might be worth investigating for him or others with properties they own but which are not PPR).

 

PH

[Phulublub]

4 hours ago, stat said:

Only true if you do not have any income or IRA account or etc...

 

ANY income?  My UK Military Pension is covered by the DTA and not assessable income.

What is an "IRA account"?  Something not applicable to most I would suggest

 

PH

[Mike Lister]

18 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Does the TRD not only relate to assessable income from employment, which is not relevant for retirees, due to the connex with tax withheld by the employer?

Possibly, possibly not. The fact the TRD officer enforces filings from even low income employment, is telling, is it not. It's difficult for me to imagine the rules would be any different where the income is from  other sources.

[Phulublub]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

25 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Does the TRD not only relate to assessable income from employment, which is not relevant for retirees, due to the connex with tax withheld by the employer?

Possibly, possibly not. The fact the TRD officer enforces filings from even low income employment, is telling, is it not. It's difficult for me to imagine the rules would be any different where the income is from  other sources.

Why would it?  My UK pension is taxed as income.....do any countries not count pensions as income?

 

PH