Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Just on this point, out of curiosity, I have a question for any member who has had to pay tax in Thailand before, for whatever reason.

 

From the time you are given your tax bill, how long do you have to pay it?

I don't think they send you a tax bill. Like Mike said, when you file your tax return, you pay what you owe at that time.

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Upon filing.

Must be paid at the time of filing.  Is that correct?  If so, is that the same for those who have millions of baht tax liability? 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Must be paid at the time of filing.  Is that correct?  If so, is that the same for those who have millions of baht tax liability? 

Yes

[Mike Teavee]

50 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Must be paid at the time of filing.  Is that correct?  If so, is that the same for those who have millions of baht tax liability? 

The only experience I have of this is a mate of mine changed jobs in Thailand & because of the timing had to come up with 350K tax in 7 days (He'd paid all of his income tax so technically owed nothing there but he did get some sort of payoff so it was maybe due to that, I do know he got it all back the next year). 

 

To make matters worse he had to go to KL to start his new job for corporate training but wasn't allowed to leave the country until he paid the Tax so I ended up loaning him the 350K until he could get himself back on track.  

 

[stat]

8 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

SIGH... And yet another post that has absolutely northing to do with my point that NOT FILING A TAX RETURN IS NOT TAX EVASION . 

 

As I clearly stated in my post, my income comes from the UK & I know how withheld tax (& disregarded income) rules work on dividends in the UK, and (as I clearly stated) DTAs do not come into it for me as I manage my remittances to Thailand so I don't need to think about whether I'm covered or not.

 

Also in my post I clearly stated my plans if Thailand were to introduce tax on world wide income, so the big difference between us is you seem completely unable to read a post & understand it - I'd bet good money that your "Consulting for International Tax Companies" is as a Project Manager & not as somebody who actually understands it.

 

 

Regarding not being able to read a post: where have I stated that not filing a tax return is a tax evasion (it could be if you have taxes to be paid).

 

Questions

1. Have you asked your bank if not telling them your new country adress is OK despite the fact that you signed off that you will tell them immediately?

2. So come again what do you do for a living that qualifies you to judge bank compliance?

3. What do you do when the bank asks you once yearly where do you live (as most banks do our days)?

 

Bonus question: wa

[Mike Teavee]

30 minutes ago, stat said:

Regarding not being able to read a post: where have I stated that not filing a tax return is a tax evasion (it could be if you have taxes to be paid). Have you asked your bank if not telling them your new country adress is OK despite the fact that you signed off that you will tell them immediately? So come again what do you do for a living that qualifies you to judge bank compliance?

 

On 6/8/2024 at 10:21 PM, stat said:

I agree with almost everything.

 

The only item that crossed my mind is that non O and non OA visa holders would not be shown on TRD radar. You could go back to back with those visa for many years. However you would still commit tax evasion if you would not hand in a tax declaration.

 

I thought a lot of the planned changes unthinkable just 2 weeks ago...

So now you don't understand/comprehend what your posting?  

 

 

When I said "For Correspondence" I meant so that my Bank could send me statements, Debit/Credit cards etc... it was them that suggested I changed my HOME address to that of my parents address when they moved me to Singapore as they only had the Investment Bank business out there.

 

I do know that they would close my account if I told them I was no longer UK Resident (Their stated reason is because they cannot offer me a full range of Products) but I am VERY CAREFUL not to break any laws when it comes to investing in UK Tax Free products E.g. I don't add any money to my ISAs or take part in Share Sales that are restricted to UK Residents (e.g. the NatWest Sale that will happen once the new UK Government is in place), I even lost my UK driving license in 2013 because I wouldn't lie to the Government about where I live (In the UK you can only renew your driving license if you live in the UK & it is an offense to have an incorrect/out of date address on your driving license).

 

 

I'm retired now but prior to that worked for a UK bank (26 years) & Citibank (4.5 years) & even though it was in IT we had to do the same KYC/Compliance training as any other Bank staff & even more than most as I was Director level working in the Investment Bank so we had additional compliance restrictions that majority of Bank staff wouldn't have (E.g. We had to take at least 1 period of 2 weeks complete leave with no access to the corporate network, except for phone calls/email on our Blackberrys, every year & had "Black Out" periods around quarterly report times where we weren't allowed to trade the Bank's shares).  

 

 

I did hit the nail on the head with Project Manager didn't I? 

[stat]

7 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

So now you don't understand/comprehend what your posting?  

 

 

When I said "For Correspondence" I meant so that my Bank could send me statements, Debit/Credit cards etc... it was them that suggested I changed my HOME address to that of my parents address when they moved me to Singapore as they only had the Investment Bank business out there.

 

I do know that they would close my account if I told them I was no longer UK Resident (Their stated reason is because they cannot offer me a full range of Products) but I am VERY CAREFUL not to break any laws when it comes to investing in UK Tax Free products E.g. I don't add any money to my ISAs or take part in Share Sales that are restricted to UK Residents (e.g. the NatWest Sale that will happen once the new UK Government is in place), I even lost my UK driving license in 2013 because I wouldn't lie to the Government about where I live (In the UK you can only renew your driving license if you live in the UK & it is an offense to have an incorrect/out of date address on your driving license).

 

 

I'm retired now but prior to that worked for a UK bank (26 years) & Citibank (4.5 years) & even though it was in IT we had to do the same KYC/Compliance training as any other Bank staff & even more than most as I was Director level working in the Investment Bank so we had additional compliance restrictions that majority of Bank staff wouldn't have (E.g. We had to take at least 1 period of 2 weeks complete leave with no access to the corporate network, except for phone calls/email on our Blackberrys, every year & had "Black Out" periods around quarterly report times where we weren't allowed to trade the Bank's shares).  

 

 

I did hit the nail on the head with Project Manager didn't I? 

So you want to tell me that as a retired investment banker that has investments in the UK you do not cross the 3500 Pound p.a. income? That would be (maybe) the exception where you would not be legally obliged to hand in a tax declaration in TH.

 

Apparently you fall in the category of people that do not realize how much the world has changed in the last 5 years regarding KYC .

 

1. Have you asked your bank if not telling them your new country adress is OK despite the fact that you signed off that you will tell them immediately?

2. So come again what do you do for a living that qualifies you to judge bank compliance?

3. What do you do when the bank asks you once yearly where do you live (as most banks do our days)?

 

You answered questions 2 but question 1 and 3 remain unanswered.

[stat]

So you want to tell me that as a retired investment banker that has investments in the UK you do not cross the 3500 Pound p.a. income? That would be (maybe) the exception where you would not be legally obliged to hand in a tax declaration in TH.

 

Apparently you fall in the category of people that do not realize how much the world has changed in the last 5 years regarding KYC .

 

1. Have you asked your bank if not telling them your new country adress is OK despite the fact that you signed off that you will tell them immediately?

2. So come again what do you do for a living that qualifies you to judge bank compliance?

3. What do you do when the bank asks you once yearly where do you live (as most banks do our days)?

 

You answered 1 question  but question 1 and 3 remain unanswered... Does you bank state that it is OK to not update your residence adress. Apparently you own Citibank shares and therefore receive US dividends and profit from a specific DBA either US-UK or US-TH while not being tax resident of that country oh my.

 

 

NB: I was consulting on KYC not like you working in a department that has nothing to do with KYC.

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, stat said:

So you want to tell me that as a retired investment banker that has investments in the UK you do not cross the 3500 Pound p.a. income? That would be (maybe) the exception where you would not be legally obliged to hand in a tax declaration in TH.

 

Apparently you fall in the category of people that do not realize how much the world has changed in the last 5 years regarding KYC .

 

1. Have you asked your bank if not telling them your new country adress is OK despite the fact that you signed off that you will tell them immediately?

2. So come again what do you do for a living that qualifies you to judge bank compliance?

3. What do you do when the bank asks you once yearly where do you live (as most banks do our days)?

 

You answered 1 question  but question 1 and 3 remain unanswered... Does you bank state that it is OK to not update your residence adress. Apparently you own Citibank shares and therefore receive US dividends and profit from a specific DBA either US-UK or US-TH while not being tax resident of that country oh my.

 

 

NB: I was consulting on KYC not like you working in a department that has nothing to do with KYC.

Perhaps you've not noticed but this exchange has dominated the thread to the point where everyone else has pretty much abandoned it and any useful discussion about Thai tax has ceased. Perhaps you can bring this personal exchange to an end and move on? Many of us worked in important and/or senior positions in our careers and many of us worked in banking, finance and consulting. Those things are only useful in so much as they provide knowledge or inputs to a debate. They become less than useful when the career itself becomes the most significant component of a contribution. For the benefit of everyone, may we please move on.

[Mike Teavee]

Reply deleted after reading Mike Lister's post above... 

[JohnnyBD]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

For the benefit of everyone, may we please move on.

Thanks. 😉

[Lorry]

On 6/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

According to  Mario, immigration is calling all lawyers who deal with immigration, to notify them about these changes. 

(That's what he says his lawyer told him.

That lawyer is dpgermanthai.com, I recommend visiting the website to get an impression.)

 

I doubt this,  but anyway: can anybody confirm this? Has anybody's lawyer been called?

 

According to Mario, his lawyer offers a package price of 40,000 (Baht, not dollars) to get a TIN and file taxes.

Only getting a TIN or other simpler things would maybe cost 10,000 or 20,000.

If your local revenue office doesn't want to issue a TIN, the law firm would send someone to help you get it.

 

BTW I watched part of another of Mario's videos.  I don't think I have to watch more. 

 

[NoDisplayName]

41 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Only getting a TIN or other simpler things would maybe cost 10,000 or 20,000.

 

That's crazy.

Do it yourself at no cost.

 

Depends on office of course, but Bangkapi tax office by Rajamangala national stadium on ramkhamhaeng by the university.   took 15 minutes.

 

*edit for location*

thanks, lorry.

[Lorry]

12 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Bangkapi tax office by national stadium

You mean the one near Ramkhamhaeng?

The National Stadium is at Siam

[JackGats]

I got a TIN free of charge in 20 minutes' time at Chonburi Revenue Office. That was back in 2019.

[Mike Lister]

There s no reason why anyone should not be able to obtain a TIN and certainly no reason why anyone should have to pay for one. TRD has a helpline for people who have problems dealing with regional or district offices, the number is in the tax guide.

[Yumthai]

11 hours ago, Lorry said:

According to Mario, his lawyer offers a package price of 40,000 (Baht, not dollars) to get a TIN and file taxes.

Sheep paying the high price to get slaughtered. This world is fascinating.

[Presnock]

22 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Sheep paying the high price to get slaughtered. This world is fascinating.

yes and advertizing help getting a (FREE) Thai Tax ID number for 10-20K baht is really a ripoff..worse by far than any other ripoffs I see almost daily.

[msbkk]

11 hours ago, JackGats said:

I got a TIN free of charge in 20 minutes' time at Chonburi Revenue Office. That was back in 2019.

I got mine this year free within 30 minutes in Bangkok. The only issue is a bit communicating in English, staff was however very helpful and polite. 

[Lorry]

12 hours ago, Lorry said:

can anybody confirm this? Has anybody's lawyer been called?

My main point was  

Can anybody confirm that immigration is calling/notifying Immigration lawyers that from Jan 1st you need a tax declaration to extend your visa ?

[Mike Teavee]

12 hours ago, JackGats said:

I got a TIN free of charge in 20 minutes' time at Chonburi Revenue Office. That was back in 2019.

Took me about 40 minutes when I got mine at the Naklua Office (The day before I'd tried at the Jomtien Office but was told that as I lived in Wongamat I had to get my TIN from Naklua, then when it came to filing the return I was told at Naklua I had to file it at Jomtien :s ) 

 

Most of that time was them questioning me (via the GF) as to why I needed one as I wasn't working in Thailand, told them I needed one for my UK Bank (sort of true) & I was planning on buying a property so believe I would need one to pay property tax & they relented. 

 

  

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

My main point was  

Can anybody confirm that immigration is calling/notifying Immigration lawyers that from Jan 1st you need a tax declaration to extend your visa ?

I have not heard anything about that and don't expect to either.

[JohnnyBD]

6 hours ago, Lorry said:

My main point was  

Can anybody confirm that immigration is calling/notifying Immigration lawyers that from Jan 1st you need a tax declaration to extend your visa ?

My agent went transfer the stamps to my new passport recently and he said IM told him they haven't heard anything from TRD about the new tax rules. My guess is that Mario is just fearmongering to drum up some business for his IM lawyer.

[marino28]

On 6/5/2024 at 6:56 PM, Dogmatix said:

 

 

Thanks.  If correct, that is certainly worrying. We should wait for direct quotes from the RD or at least corroboration from Thai media to confirm that is their intention. Getting it approved by the cabinet, vetted by the council of state and passed three readings in parliament would require some prioritising to get it enacted this year to make it effective on 1 Jan 2025.  They could attempt a short cut by using a Royal Decree to avoid parliamentary scrutiny and process but there is some risk in that, as it could be overturned later in parliament. 

 

For comparison the finance ministry announced that VAT would start being charged on all postal packages from May but to date the order has not yet come back from the Council of State and that is just a Customs Department Order, not legislation.

 

 

After the initial news, I did not find any further updates. Considering all the legal requirements that need to be in place to implement worldwide taxation, they might not have enough time to enact it by 2025, especially given the current political issues they are dealing with.

 

[stat]

4 hours ago, marino28 said:

 

 

After the initial news, I did not find any further updates. Considering all the legal requirements that need to be in place to implement worldwide taxation, they might not have enough time to enact it by 2025, especially given the current political issues they are dealing with.

 

There is definetly not enough time to implement by 2025 but I wonder if they care about that and go ahead nevertheless without any laws, clarifications or accounting rules.

[Mike Teavee]

11 hours ago, stat said:

There is definetly not enough time to implement by 2025 but I wonder if they care about that and go ahead nevertheless without any laws, clarifications or accounting rules.

For the change to the way remitted income was taxed, the revenue was able to push ahead with it without any law changes as it's just a re-interpretation of an existing rule which is written in such a way that you could argue was always intended to be interpreted that way. 

 

A change to Global Taxation would require a complete change of the Revenue's Rules & new Laws passing giving them the mandate to tax Globally so they simply cannot go ahead with it without going through the parliamentary processes & even getting a Royal Decree.

 

IMHO this will take at least 5 years to implement & is more likely to be quietly dropped.

[Rimmer]

A derogatory troll post has been removed

[stat]

7 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

For the change to the way remitted income was taxed, the revenue was able to push ahead with it without any law changes as it's just a re-interpretation of an existing rule which is written in such a way that you could argue was always intended to be interpreted that way. 

 

A change to Global Taxation would require a complete change of the Revenue's Rules & new Laws passing giving them the mandate to tax Globally so they simply cannot go ahead with it without going through the parliamentary processes & even getting a Royal Decree.

 

IMHO this will take at least 5 years to implement & is more likely to be quietly dropped.

You need specific laws for accounting rules even if only remitted income were to be taxed. However maybe they decide to just tax every satang you transmit no matter if principal or loss.

 

I agree likeliest outcome will be a postponement but I am not willing to take the risk that I am wrong, so I will not stay in Thailand longer then 178 days (to be on the safe side).

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, stat said:

However maybe they decide to just tax every satang you transmit no matter if principal or loss.

You really thought that through before you pushed "send?" If so, I guess I won't waste any of my future time wading through your posts for any germane contributions.

[stat]

33 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You really thought that through before you pushed "send?" If so, I guess I won't waste any of my future time wading through your posts for any germane contributions.

Quite frankly I do not understand your reply. If TRD is not happy with your documentation they could simply tax every satang unless YOU prove otherwise (They will however honor DBAs). Don't shoot the messenger. I am talking about a possibility here.

 

My take is you think about your pension (will not be taxed as covered by DBA) I am talking ww cap gains that have not been taxed somewhere else.