Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

7 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Same in term of WHT filing obligation, just the rates may change.

All information is linked there, if you need further info I suggest you approach a Thai accounting firm.

Thank you for providing the Mazars information, I agree that we cannot go much further with this, without external input. I view the WHT as being for services and not labour, "a deduction from payments made to suppliers who provide a service". The difference between the two categories are highly contentious in many economies, mostly from a tax perspective. In the UK, contractors who supply a service are regarded as a businesses but if labour is deemed to be supplied, they are employees.

 

I shall continue to dig into this and post anything I think might be helpful.

[chiang mai]

21 hours ago, Presnock said:

To expats re some agent info:

  expattaxthailand.com - provided a webinar today on pensions of different countries - some exempt due to DTA's others not which by now most of us already know.  They mentioned that if one has no assessable income (i.e. only have exempted govt pension or social security) then one does not need to get a Thai tax number nor file any tax form.

 In addition he said that they will give one a 15 minute FREE consultation on one's taxes so if not too convoluted then should be able to help folks.  They also have tax prep help,

 75K, 12K and 24K depending on how much help is needed. They also have webinars set for DTA's and other tax filing issues in the future.  One can contact them and register for the webinars (FREE) via computer (ZOOM).   I notice someone has asked about the 800K for visa if it is taxable.  Normally, if it is in the first half of the year, and then the person remitted it into a Thai bank, unless the person stayed 180 or more days that calendar year, it wouldn't be taxed but if one did remit the 800K early in the year and stayed the

180+ days, then it would be taxable.  Some bit about the source of the 800K pre 2024 savings or whatever - a good question for one considering depositing the money to check with someone who might know for sure. He also said that his office has all the DTA's with Thailand if folks wanted to check on their particular country.   Goodluck to all!

"They mentioned that if one has no assessable income (i.e. only have exempted govt pension or social security) then one does not need to get a Thai tax number nor file any tax form".

 

That confirms what we already understood, but still doesn't shed light on the much debated, somewhat contentious, middle ground scenario where there is some assessable income but not enough to pay tax.......it would be nice to lay that one to bed with confirmation from an external source.

[jwest10]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

"They mentioned that if one has no assessable income (i.e. only have exempted govt pension or social security) then one does not need to get a Thai tax number nor file any tax form".

 

That confirms what we already understood, but still doesn't shed light on the much debated, somewhat contentious, middle ground scenario where there is some assessable income but not enough to pay tax.......it would be nice to lay that one to bed with confirmation from an external source.

We have been advised to sit back and wait if and when an official and clear announcement  and yes let alone form 90 and the income exemption entitlement form'
The vast majority of us are below the thresholds and income under a maximum of 560K income but noticed the P60's show the tax paid in the UK and if and whenever these forms are out then the one taxed already one should not include in the figures'
Also of course the Uk tax period os from the 6th April and the Thai one is 1Jan to 31st December correct but keep the P60s as proof/

[stat]

9 hours ago, jwest10 said:

We have been advised to sit back and wait if and when an official and clear announcement  and yes let alone form 90 and the income exemption entitlement form'
The vast majority of us are below the thresholds and income under a maximum of 560K income but noticed the P60's show the tax paid in the UK and if and whenever these forms are out then the one taxed already one should not include in the figures'
Also of course the Uk tax period os from the 6th April and the Thai one is 1Jan to 31st December correct but keep the P60s as proof/

Really under 560K Baht p.a.? This is not even enough for the extension of stay in TH via the income method. Maybe I am mistaken but I assume that the majority here are over 560K Baht per year.

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, stat said:

Really under 560K Baht p.a.? This is not even enough for the extension of stay in TH via the income method. Maybe I am mistaken but I assume that the majority here are over 560K Baht per year.

It is for married retirees.

[JimGant]

12 hours ago, stat said:

Maybe I am mistaken but I assume that the majority here are over 560K Baht per year.

Don't forget it's only assessable income we're concerned with. All those govt pensions, social security, pre 2024 income, and for some (Canadians), even private pensions -- are probably most, if not all, the income remitted to Thailand. Thus, assessable income well below 560k.

[Lorry]

14 hours ago, stat said:

Really under 560K Baht p.a.? This is not even enough for the extension of stay in TH via the income method. Maybe I am mistaken but I assume that the majority here are over 560K Baht per year.

Many people don't live here 12 months per year. 

[jwest10]

20 hours ago, stat said:

Really under 560K Baht p.a.? This is not even enough for the extension of stay in TH via the income method. Maybe I am mistaken but I assume that the majority here are over 560K Baht per year.

I am obviously talking about income in one year and not savings and not the 800k in bankl ok 
Ok if you are lucky to be rich grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[jwest10]

21 hours ago, stat said:

Really under 560K Baht p.a.? This is not even enough for the extension of stay in TH via the income method. Maybe I am mistaken but I assume that the majority here are over 560K Baht per year.

Not talking about extension ok 

[stat]

13 hours ago, JimGant said:

Don't forget it's only assessable income we're concerned with. All those govt pensions, social security, pre 2024 income, and for some (Canadians), even private pensions -- are probably most, if not all, the income remitted to Thailand. Thus, assessable income well below 560k.

For example the German government pension is taxable and asseable in Thailand according to DTA, so IMHO a lot of people are over 560K per year, maybe not in the case of us or uk penions agreed.

 

There was a respectable German YT who reported that no taxes will be levied for holders of the Elite Visa.

[motdaeng]

5 hours ago, stat said:

There was a respectable German YT who reported that no taxes will be levied for holders of the Elite Visa.

 

can you name this channel? thanks ...

[chiang mai]

I don't know how much money other people spend here every month but I certainly don't spend the large sums that some others seem to imagine is needed. I have two pensions remitted here every month  which at todays rate of exchange total about 55k a month and that's plenty to see us through the month without cutting corners or scrimping. It helps that we own our house plus  my wife has her own business so there are no financial demands there, but I pay all monthly expenses.

 

I have other income that remains overseas every month, another pension, an investment account and rental income. I also have ample Baht on hand to see us through any emergencies or desire for holidays or large purchases. Many of the expats that I know, brought over decent amounts, fifteen or twenty years ago when exchange rates were very good, knowing they wouldn't last. Of course that meant having some faith in Thai banks and also our choice of partners, and in Thailand overall. You don't need huge amounts every month to live well in this country but life style is major factor.

[JimGant]

10 hours ago, stat said:

For example the German government pension is taxable and asseable in Thailand according to DTA,

Are you sure? The following is from the English translation of the German-Thai tax treaty, Article 18:

Quote

......pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities paid by or out of funds created by a Contracting State, a "Land", a political subdivision, local authority or local administration thereof shall be exempt from tax in the other Contracting State.

["land" means Länder, the equivalent to a State or Province in the Federal Republic of Germany].

 

[redwood1]

12 hours ago, stat said:

For example the German government pension is taxable and asseable in Thailand according to DTA, so IMHO a lot of people are over 560K per year, maybe not in the case of us or uk penions agreed.

 

There was a respectable German YT who reported that no taxes will be levied for holders of the Elite Visa.

 

You had better believe the Elite visa seller want this visa tax free.....If not the Elite visa seller better get noodle cart to make money......Because their azz will be jobless if the Elite visa is taxed.....

 

The list of who will be paying the income tax gets shorter every day.....lol

 

Folks no one will be paying jack.......This tax is DOA....

[stat]

9 hours ago, JimGant said:

Are you sure? The following is from the English translation of the German-Thai tax treaty, Article 18:

 

German gov. pensions are not taxed in Germany and are supposed to be taxed in TH, but TH never used its right up to now.  I know numerous people that have not been taxed neither in GER nor in TH in the past. Anyway the German gov. penion was/is paid to a high percentage out of already taxed income (was changed in 2005) so basically you are getting back the money you have paid 30 years ago.

[Captain Flack]

I have removed 2 posts with videos not in English. If posters can not understand what is said on the videos, then sorry there is little benefit.

[oldcpu]

On 9/27/2024 at 12:26 AM, stat said:

For example the German government pension is taxable and asseable in Thailand according to DTA, so IMHO a lot of people are over 560K per year, maybe not in the case of us or uk penions agreed.

 

I am curious about this, as a (very small) part of my different pensions comes from Germany.

 

I struggle sometimes with the wording of "a Contracting State" and "other Contracting State" in the DTA (for example in the DTA between Germany and Thailand).

 

Further to that example, if I read Article-18 in the German/Thai DTA, para-2, and when at first I tried to fill in 'Germany' (or 'Thailand' ) in place of 'a contracting state' or in place of 'other contracting state', at first I incorrectly read:

 

(2) Notwithstanding the provision of (1) pensions and other payments for past employment created by Germany (ie a contracting state) shall be exempt from tax in Thailand (ie 'other contracting state').

 

Clearly that is inconsistent with what you have determined - and I then checked again. 

 

I note in para(1) of Article-18 of the Thai/German DTA "a contracting state" is referred to the one in which one is a resident.  ... so it could be at first I confused "a contracting state" with "other contracting state" ...   ie is it instead maybe it is saying

 

(1) Pensions and other payments for past employment .... derived by a resident of Thailand (ie a contracting state) may be taxed in Germany (the other contracting state) only if such payments are deducted as expenses in determining the profits of an enterprise of Germany (the other contracting state) ...

(2) Notwithstanding the provision of (1) pensions and other payments for past employment created by Thailand  (ie a contracting state where one is resident) shall be exempt from tax in Germany (ie 'other contracting state').

 

And if that second example is the case, then the DTA talks about Thailand pensions (for German pension recipients who reside in Thailand) and says nothing (ie and saying nothing it provides no DTA protections) about Thailand taxing German pensions , but rather only infers Germany won't tax the German pensions of those abroad from Germany who derive German pensions.  So with no protections, Thailand could tax such if they wished.

 

I almost wonder if it would be useful for a separate thread for expats who derive income from different countries ... where such could be hashed out.

 

[JimGant]

oldcpu -- not sure where you got your English translation of the German Thai DTA? Here are two sources I Googled:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/germany_e_221057.pdf

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Germany-Thailand-Double-Tax-Treaty.pdf

 

And here's what these sources say:

Quote

1 Pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities derived by a resident of a Contracting State may be taxed in the other Contracting State only if such payments are deducted as expenses in determining the profits of an enterprise of that other State or of a permanent establishment situated therein.
2 Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, pensions and other payments for past employment as well as annuities paid by or out of funds created by a Contracting State, a “Land”, a political subdivision, local authority or local administration thereof shall be exempt from tax in the other Contracting State.

 

What I make of your translation is that it refers entirely to private pensions -- and may be taxed in Germany only if, as a German pension, the payment of that pension is subtracted from the income sheet as a cost against profits (the ordinary situation, I presume). Your translation goes further than mine, where it adds a paragraph 2 delineating that a German resident of Thailand, receiving a Thai pension, has that pension only taxable by Thailand.

 

My paragraph 2 covers government pensions, and is pretty clear in its statement that govt pensions are taxable  exclusively in the country paying the pensions.

 

And both our sources are saying the same thing re private pensions, although it's a little weird that it gives the country where the private enterprise is located -- taxation rights only if that company treats its pensions as a cost (what enterprise doesn't?).

 

Anyway, OECD treaty language uses the language "may be taxed by country A" to mean country A has primary taxation rights -- but country B has secondary taxation rights. So, in this example, if you're a German tax resident of Thailand, receiving a German private pension (which is a cost to the company -- then Germany has primary taxation rights. Thailand, however, can, if it chooses, also tax that pension -- but has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid Germany. Of course, if Germany doesn't tax that pension -- and Thailand does -- Thailand has no credit to absorb, and thus gets to keep the whole bundle.

 

But, if you're a German expat in Thailand -- I'd probably seek some further clarification.

[Bubbha]

I’m sure this has been covered here or elsewhere.

I’m resident in Thailand during 2024 (>180 days).

I will have no assessable income in 2024.

Will I be required to file a 2024 tax return?

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, Bubbha said:

I’m sure this has been covered here or elsewhere.

I’m resident in Thailand during 2024 (>180 days).

I will have no assessable income in 2024.

Will I be required to file a 2024 tax return?

No

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 9/25/2024 at 7:11 AM, chiang mai said:

That confirms what we already understood, but still doesn't shed light on the much debated, somewhat contentious, middle ground scenario where there is some assessable income but not enough to pay tax.......it would be nice to lay that one to bed with confirmation from an external source.

I have an email confirming that - previously supplied on this thread  (with person's personal name and my banks details removed).  Obviously no one is going to read hundreds of pages.  I dont have the file - and no time to edit it all again - but here are the words I got from a Thai based tax company.

 

After consulting with our Thai tax division and analyzing your personal details, we have determined that you are not required to file a Thai tax return as no Thai taxes are owed.  This is based on the filing rules as of today's date.

 

The point being stressed is 'as of today's filing rules' (as told to them by TRD). It will not be until the end of this year that TRD advises all the Thai accredited tax professionals/organisations, how they want them to manage things with regards to tax returns, under the new rule. Until then no one knows whether the status quo will remain (they dont want 10s of millions of tax returns from people with no tax to pay).   Only about 10 million Thais lodge a PIT - but we and TRD know there are upwards of 30-40 million Thais making money. However, the vast majority of them do not have to pay income taxes because their income is below combined Allowances and Exemptions.

 

[Lorry]

11 hours ago, JimGant said:

oldcpu -- not sure where you got your English translation of the German Thai DTA? Here are two sources I Googled:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/germany_e_221057.pdf

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Germany-Thailand-Double-Tax-Treaty.pdf

 

And here's what these sources say:

 

What I make of your translation is that it refers entirely to private pensions -- and may be taxed in Germany only if, as a German pension, the payment of that pension is subtracted from the income sheet as a cost against profits (the ordinary situation, I presume). Your translation goes further than mine, where it adds a paragraph 2 delineating that a German resident of Thailand, receiving a Thai pension, has that pension only taxable by Thailand.

 

My paragraph 2 covers government pensions, and is pretty clear in its statement that govt pensions are taxable  exclusively in the country paying the pensions.

 

And both our sources are saying the same thing re private pensions, although it's a little weird that it gives the country where the private enterprise is located -- taxation rights only if that company treats its pensions as a cost (what enterprise doesn't?).

 

Anyway, OECD treaty language uses the language "may be taxed by country A" to mean country A has primary taxation rights -- but country B has secondary taxation rights. So, in this example, if you're a German tax resident of Thailand, receiving a German private pension (which is a cost to the company -- then Germany has primary taxation rights. Thailand, however, can, if it chooses, also tax that pension -- but has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid Germany. Of course, if Germany doesn't tax that pension -- and Thailand does -- Thailand has no credit to absorb, and thus gets to keep the whole bundle.

 

But, if you're a German expat in Thailand -- I'd probably seek some further clarification.

German pensions:

 

Most people get a pension from their compulsory old age insurance,  which is a part of the compulsory social insurance system for most employees. 

These pensions are not taxed in Germany if you live in Thailand. 

And Thailand,  until now, hasn't taxed them either.

 

Many former employees also get an additional private pension from their former employer. These are mostly taxed in Germany (as @JimGantjust explained). 

 

Former civil servants get a pension from the (federal or state) government,  taxed in Germany. 

 

Former professionals like lawyers and doctors get a pension from their professional associations (bodies governed by public law, where they paid compulsory old-age insurance). I don't know how these are taxed. 

[chiang mai]

18 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have an email confirming that - previously supplied on this thread  (with person's personal name and my banks details removed).  Obviously no one is going to read hundreds of pages.  I dont have the file - and no time to edit it all again - but here are the words I got from a Thai based tax company.

 

After consulting with our Thai tax division and analyzing your personal details, we have determined that you are not required to file a Thai tax return as no Thai taxes are owed.  This is based on the filing rules as of today's date.

 

The point being stressed is 'as of today's filing rules' (as told to them by TRD). It will not be until the end of this year that TRD advises all the Thai accredited tax professionals/organisations, how they want them to manage things with regards to tax returns, under the new rule. Until then no one knows whether the status quo will remain (they dont want 10s of millions of tax returns from people with no tax to pay).   Only about 10 million Thais lodge a PIT - but we and TRD know there are upwards of 30-40 million Thais making money. However, the vast majority of them do not have to pay income taxes because their income is below combined Allowances and Exemptions.

 

The question I posed, which still hasn't been answered, is this:

 

The person has assessable income, above the level required to file a tax return but below the level of having to pay tax, once that person's view of the relevant TEDA is taken into account.

 

In other words, does the tax system allow individuals to make their own calculations  about whether or not tax is due and lets them decided whether or not to file a return, on the basis of their own findings? e.g. I calculate no tax is due ergo I don't have to file.

 

I hear the argument that the TRD doesn't want lots of null tax returns but there's another argument that this method is a get out of jail free card plus it doesn't aid tax collection. If somebody were to use that as a reason for not filing, the excuse would be, "Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, I thought blah blah blah". I mean, there's nothing in the instructions that says people can make this informal precursory check, whereas you might imagine there would be, at least somewhere. So is this really nothing more than presumption on our part, "we were trying to help you, we didn't think you'd want us to file if there was no tax to pay"! In fact, there is a penalty for not filing when you're supposed to, although few people think it is ever imposed.

 

I just don't know how valid all that really is. The argument that it's an informal system that relies on tradition is one option, but that's not a useful defense if TRD ever tries to quote the rule book. Something more substantial would be most helpful, not just personal opinion and emotion, regardless of which way it may point.

 

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

In other words, does the tax system allow individuals to make their own calculations  about whether or not tax is due and lets them decided whether or not to file a return, on the basis of their own findings? e.g. I calculate no tax is due ergo I don't have to file.

Of course. Just common sense. As a non filer, you'll never be on the TRD radar screen anyway. Sure, they can guess that you receive remittances to live on. But they certainly can't parse those remittances for assessability, as even they understand cost/benefit analyses. No, the chance of ever being called in for a chat about why you didn't file a tax return would seem to be zero. And if you were, what big deal would occur?

This was heavily discussed months ago, and I was banned for a week for giving advice to break the law. The cause of that banning no longer participates here.

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Of course. Just common sense. As a non filer, you'll never be on the TRD radar screen anyway. Sure, they can guess that you receive remittances to live on. But they certainly can't parse those remittances for assessability, as even they understand cost/benefit analyses. No, the chance of ever being called in for a chat about why you didn't file a tax return would seem to be zero. And if you were, what big deal would occur?

This was heavily discussed months ago, and I was banned for a week for giving advice to break the law. The cause of that banning no longer participates here.

I don't know that using common sense is mentioned anywhere in tax guides or in tax rules in any country, what makes sense to one person doesn't always make sense to everyone else. And since the tax rules go to some great length to define even simple things, if common sense were the answer you'd think they would have defined this scenario.

[JimGant]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

what makes sense to one person doesn't always make sense to everyone else.

You're right. So, unless I have Thai taxable income, I won't file. However, you and your crowd, with 120k in assessable income, should plan to get a TIN, and to file, 'lest you worry over this. Nevermind the absurdity that you'd need another 440k in assessable income to even have any taxable income.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The question I posed, which still hasn't been answered, is this:

 

The person has assessable income, above the level required to file a tax return but below the level of having to pay tax, once that person's view of the relevant TEDA is taken into account.

 

In other words, does the tax system allow individuals to make their own calculations  about whether or not tax is due and lets them decided whether or not to file a return, on the basis of their own findings? e.g. I calculate no tax is due ergo I don't have to file.

 

I hear the argument that the TRD doesn't want lots of null tax returns but there's another argument that this method is a get out of jail free card plus it doesn't aid tax collection. If somebody were to use that as a reason for not filing, the excuse would be, "Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, I thought blah blah blah". I mean, there's nothing in the instructions that says people can make this informal precursory check, whereas you might imagine there would be, at least somewhere. So is this really nothing more than presumption on our part, "we were trying to help you, we didn't think you'd want us to file if there was no tax to pay"! In fact, there is a penalty for not filing when you're supposed to, although few people think it is ever imposed.

 

I just don't know how valid all that really is. The argument that it's an informal system that relies on tradition is one option, but that's not a useful defense if TRD ever tries to quote the rule book. Something more substantial would be most helpful, not just personal opinion and emotion, regardless of which way it may point.

All of those questions have been answered in this thread several times by several posters including me. 

Start reading - from the start - and read the links provided.

No one here is your Mother.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

You're right. So, unless I have Thai taxable income, I won't file. However, you and your crowd, with 120k in assessable income, should plan to get a TIN, and to file, 'lest you worry over this. Nevermind the absurdity that you'd need another 440k in assessable income to even have any taxable income.

 

 

I hear you Jim and agree 100% - but this bloke aint listening. IMO stop answering and trying to help these type of blokes - they demand more and more answers - on a public forum - for free. 

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

All of those questions have been answered in this thread several times by several posters including me. 

Start reading - from the start - and read the links provided.

No one here is your Mother.

 

Nobody, not even you, has supplied confirmation from an official source  that answers my question.

 

I don't mind that you don't know the answer but you could try being a little more polite when you waffle your way through an excuse of an answer.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you Jim and agree 100% - but this bloke aint listening. IMO stop answering and trying to help these type of blokes - they demand more and more answers - on a public forum - for free. 

Complete and utter tosh! Nobody can supply proof of an official answer to my question, all you can do is quote emotion and your own logic and make excuses that the question isn't valid. If the answer were so simple and obvious, somebody would have supplied a quote and link from the TRD confirming what it is.