Laminate/Vinyl flooring over wood floor

[gidz555]

Hi all,

 

We have a Thai house with the ground floor being cement and the first floor being wood and I'd like to redo the wood floor and make better use of the space upstairs.

 

The floor is not in great shape as it is creaky and uneven in some areas but it is still strong.

 

The wife's family seem to want to refurbish the floor keeping it as it currently is but I feel like it would be better use of our funds to buy some large sheets of wood of reasonable thickness, have them screwed to the wood beneath, and then just have laminate flooring installed.

 

Has anyone done something similar? What are your thoughts? Attached an image of the room as it currently is.

 

Cheers

 

[sometimewoodworker]

That is a reasonable idea, there are some things you need to do before doing that you will first need to level the floor, while I’m not there I can be sure that it is not flat now, then since the floor is creaking you will need a minimum of 20mm ply (you could use USB but you need to know where to buy it) I know a supplier in Khon Kaen and you will pay 1,200+ per sheet for good plywood, again you have to know where to go as the majority of places have cheap Chinese plywood.
 

You can never get a bargain on plywood, if its lower than 1,400 unless you know the suppliers, the reasons will include; little glue, high formaldehyde levels in the product, micron thin surface veneers, veneers overlapping, veneer voids, short time in the veneer press, low temperature in the press, etc

 

don't make the mistake of using outdoor ply inside as the formaldehyde levels will be stratospheric, also don’t believe that your builder has any knowledge of any of the information above, they will almost always consider that they have a bargain when they pay 600 Baht for a sheet of cheap c*r*a*p, that will do an adequate job for a year or two, while giving people formaldehyde exposure.

Edited September 28 by sometimewoodworker

[gidz555]

Quote

since the floor is creaking you will need a minimum of 20mm ply

 

Thanks for the response @sometimewoodworker, what would the dimensions of the ply wood be so I can factor it into my budget? I'm based in Phichit so it seems I'm quite far away from the supplier in Khon Kaen but I'm sure I can a reliable supplier nearby..

 

Also good info on the formaldehyde risks; I think for my own peace of mind I would purchase something to seal the layer of ply from the flooring to limit exposure.

[sometimewoodworker]

58 minutes ago, gidz555 said:

I'm based in Phichit so it seems I'm quite far away from the supplier in Khon Kaen but I'm sure I can a reliable supplier nearby..

That maybe what you think, however I would be extremely surprised if you can find anything closer than Bangkok, I have looked in an area about 150 Km north and south of Khon Kaen and they are the only company that has that material. 
 

You can probably get the shipment from KK for a reasonable price.
 

If you know exactly what to look for it is possible that if you go to all the suppliers in the Chang Mai area you might find a supplier.

 

However there are so many variables in the manufacturing process of plywood, all of them will effect the price and you can specify materials that will change the cost per 20mm sheet between about 400 per sheet to upwards of 150,000 and you will probably need to buy a quality that will make your eyes water

A standard sheet is 1220mm x 2440mm

 

 

58 minutes ago, gidz555 said:

Also good info on the formaldehyde risks; I think for my own peace of mind I would purchase something to seal the layer of ply from the flooring to limit exposure.

Again a nice idea, unfortunately it won’t work. The only thing that will prevent formaldehyde exposure is to not use products that contain it in the construction 

Edited Monday at 11:46 AM by sometimewoodworker

[patman30]

builders done same to one of the wooden houses we got
but they used the thick fibre cement floor boards,
which may possibly be an easier and maybe cheaper option for you
whatever you use, do consider sanding that floor and refinishing it, rather than covering it with vinyl flooring

 

 

Edited Monday at 12:07 PM by patman30

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, patman30 said:

fibre cement floor boards,

Usually don’t have the flexibility required if the under floor is not completely stable 

[Dante99]

11 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

the cost per 20mm sheet between about 400 per sheet to upwards of 150,000

What do you get for 150,000 per sheet?

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, Dante99 said:

What do you get for 150,000 per sheet?

For that I would ask a super yacht joiner or a private jumbo airplane outfitter or someone who is outfitting really high end apartments or houses that are in the hundreds of millions  and the ฿150,000 per sheet is not even at the high end of prices.

 

for reasonably simple face veneer prices 

 

this is an example of the process.

as to what you can get try a pattern like this (1-4" T x 2-5" W x 3-12" L $60.00)

 

sizes to outfit a room like this

 

then multiply the face veneer prices by a factor of 10 too 100 as you will be exhausting the available world supply.

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:16 AM by sometimewoodworker

[patman30]

On 9/30/2024 at 9:42 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Usually don’t have the flexibility required if the under floor is not completely stable 

i would have thought the same, but they do work
my concern is them cracking fibre cement is not that strong, but these are 20mm thick
the wood floor was bouncy,
which is why they were installed underneath to reduce the the flex
they have been in 2 years and seem fine
for Ply my concern would be actually finding some decent Ply here
which builders are not going to do for you

i made a nice table from off cuts of plywood

 

[BritManToo]

Beware of termites!

[Yellowtail]

The existing may be hardwood planks. If so. O would try to save it. 

 

Does the family have a recommendation on who can redo it? 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

For my place, I used tiles that perfectly imitate the look of wood floor paneling. Far more easy to clean and will not deteriorate with the humidity and will not attract termites.  And it looks just like wood.

[impulse]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The existing may be hardwood planks. If so. O would try to save it. 

 

Does the family have a recommendation on who can redo it? 

 

+1

 

I look at that flooring and suspect that salvaging it and starting over from the bones would yield some very spendy hardwood planks that can be cleaned up on a planer.  Not to mention eliminating the possibility of creaking wood if you did just cover up the old flooring. 

 

One of the great things about Thailand is the low cost of labor.

 

Of course, that assumes it's a nice hardwood.  (And that there wouldn't be legal problems possessing hardwood without a license to possess hardwood.  I've heard some horror stories over the years)

 

[Dante99]

15 hours ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

For my place, I used tiles that perfectly imitate the look of wood floor paneling. Far more easy to clean and will not deteriorate with the humidity and will not attract termites.  And it looks just like wood.

could you please post information about the specific tiles you have and perhaps a photo

 

thanks

 

[sometimewoodworker]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

Of course, that assumes it's a nice hardwood.  (And that there wouldn't be legal problems possessing hardwood without a license to possess hardwood.  I've heard some horror stories over the years)

There is no license to possess hardwood per se, there are licenses required to be involved in Teak 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

On 9/28/2024 at 4:13 PM, gidz555 said:

Has anyone done something similar? What are your thoughts? Attached an image of the room as it currently is.

I would not opt for cheap and nasty lamination.

My suggestion: Clear everything from the room first. Before addressing the floor, open the manhole in the ceiling to inspect for debris, vermin, and the condition of the electrical wiring. It would also be a good opportunity to check the ceiling/roof insulation and ventilation. If necessary, consider cutting a hole to install permanent access for future inspections.

If the floor is old Thai hardwood, it would be a shame to cover it. I recommend tightening the loose floorboards with screws and renting or purchasing a hand-held belt sander. With some effort, you can restore the boards to a condition suitable for polyurethane lacquer, applied with a roller or brush. Don’t worry about the floor's unevenness or squeaks—these add character to an older home. By the way, some floor tiles on the market even have an audible squeak built-in!

[impulse]

10 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There is no license to possess hardwood per se, there are licenses required to be involved in Teak 

 

I don't think it's that simple.

 

https://www.timbertradeportal.com/en/thailand/144/key-documents

 

There have been AN threads over the years about arrests for possessing the wrong kind of wood without the right kind of permit.

[Patong2021]

Plywood: The comments on the glue and formaldehyde outgassing are so right. Choose wisely.

 

Termites and Wood: Considering the fact that vinyl flooring is going to be applied over an old  wood  base, the termites (and carpenter ants) can still do their damage, except that you won't find out until the floor starts sagging or collapses.

 

Laminated  and or engineered wood Floors:  I was never a big fan of laminates, but that was because I was unaware of all the improvements and engineering changes that were made. Today there are glueless products that fit together, and there have been significant improvements in water resistance. The fabrication process can also make the products very insect resistant.

 

Hardwood: I am a fan of hardwood, but we have to be practical.  Other than teak, the humidity and the insects make it impractical in most Thai homes.

 

Engineered tile:  I am impressed by the new options. I never liked it because it suggested cheap and knock off marble. Well, not anymore. The tiles that have been around for years are not the ugly stuff from years ago. They manage temperature better, are sturdy and cost effective.  I had them in a condo I rented and they were  decent. I didn't appreciate the type I had in the bathroom as they became slick and dangerously slippery when wet, but the version used in the  galley kitchen and living area was well done and gave a warm ambience.

 

 

In all cases, the  subfloor has to be level, properly sealed and supported.

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 hour ago, Patong2021 said:

Hardwood: I am a fan of hardwood, but we have to be practical.  Other than teak, the humidity and the insects make it impractical in most Thai homes.

The upper floor and support columns of most old village houses are made from a type of hardwood, though I'm not sure of its name—it's definitely not teak. These hardwoods are incredibly tough; it's difficult to drill a hole or even hammer a nail into them. Remarkably, they are resistant to pests like white ants and unaffected by humidity. Many houses in my wife’s village are built this way. In fact, we live in one ourselves, although it’s been somewhat modernized, we’ve retained the 100-year-old hardwood columns and upper floorboards, preserving its original charm.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

I don't think it's that simple.

 

https://www.timbertradeportal.com/en/thailand/144/key-documents

 

There have been AN threads over the years about arrests for possessing the wrong kind of wood without the right kind of permit.

I have never seen any reports for anything but Teak. There maybe other timbers that are covered but I’ve only ever seen the reports about Teak.

 

2 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

The upper floor and support columns of most old village houses are made from a type of hardwood, though I'm not sure of its name—it's definitely not teak. These hardwoods are incredibly tough; it's difficult to drill a hole or even hammer a nail into them. Remarkably, they are resistant to pests like white ants and unaffected by humidity.

They are usually infested with termites 

 

as you can see, though the termites live in the cracks and don’t, or can’t, eat the heart wood. There are several species used. The wood is extremely dense with some having a very marked difference in colour between the hardwood and surface layers. It is very similar to old English oak where you will find woodworms cannot eat the heartwood even after a few hundred years of trying.

 

I decided that its not worth the time and effort to convert the house posts into usable material.

[Dr B]

I will not attempt to disagree with Sometimewoodworker, who quite obviously is much more expereinced than me. Attached are two photos of some plywood bought from a local timber shop in Krabi. The best they had, which was about By 800 per sheet if I remember correctly. Looked great on the outside, but when I sliced it up it was a different story. I used it for the top of my router table, and still find places where I can push therough the surface becasue there is a void in the laminations beneath.

Looking at your floor, it would appear to have stood the test of time, so should go on for at elast as long again if looked after. We had a timber floor in our house (which is all timber), which we bought, dismantled, and rebuilt on our site. You need to check the thickness of the boards, and the size and spacing of the joists. Creaking could be because a few boards are not fixed down properly, or perhaps becasue the joists are a bit too small or widely spaced. 

I am also attaching a photo of part of our living room. The boards are wider, and thick. There are double floor beams at 3.5 m centres, and then joists about 125 x 50 mm at about 600 centres, see photo from underneath. The floor was all relaid and we rebuilt the house as a mirror image. We bought a belt sander, big heavy thing but it worked, and I v=can walk across the floor without a sound. I love wood, and would not dream of using laminates or plywood! Personal taste.

 

[newnative]

    The floor looks beautiful.  I would try to save it.  You have something wonderful--laminate/vinyl isn't.  

[Patong2021]

9 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

The upper floor and support columns of most old village houses are made from a type of hardwood, though I'm not sure of its name—it's definitely not teak. These hardwoods are incredibly tough; it's difficult to drill a hole or even hammer a nail into them. Remarkably, they are resistant to pests like white ants and unaffected by humidity. Many houses in my wife’s village are built this way. In fact, we live in one ourselves, although it’s been somewhat modernized, we’ve retained the 100-year-old hardwood columns and upper floorboards, preserving its original charm.

 

Understood, and no  argument from me on this, but, when I was writing, I was thinking of the current "hardwoods" which are not.

 

There's a thread here that lists the woods that I found helpful  even if a Laos reference.  It's 16 years old, but still helpful.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris49]

On 9/30/2024 at 5:46 PM, gidz555 said:

 

Thanks for the response @sometimewoodworker, what would the dimensions of the ply wood be so I can factor it into my budget? I'm based in Phichit so it seems I'm quite far away from the supplier in Khon Kaen but I'm sure I can a reliable supplier nearby..

 

Also good info on the formaldehyde risks; I think for my own peace of mind I would purchase something to seal the layer of ply from the flooring to limit exposure.

I was in the construction business in Canada for over 20 years. Some of these comments are valid but other things to consider. Firstly, adding product to the existing floor will raise the elevation of the finished floor so you need to consider the space under doorways and the transition to other floor spaces if they exist. As well, take into consideration the thickness of your 20 mil plywood as well as the thickness of the resilient flooring that you want to finish with. I would not use OSB as it can absorb moisture and Thailand has a humid climate. Further, the plywood should be Tongue and Groove as well as Good One Side. The resilient flooring can reflect irregularities through the product if of not high quality. You get what you pay for. I cannot comment on the condition. off the current floor as obviously I cannot see it. If the current flooring is irregular and has squeaks, I would resolve that prior to adding a plywood topping, if that is what you want to do. Get rid of existing squeaks as they may not disappear with the addition of the plywood no matter how well you think you may secure it. How many square feet or sq metres of space are you talking about? You may be best off to get rid of the existing and start fresh. What is the substrate under the existing floor? 

 

Cheers

Chris

[CharlesHolzhauer]

11 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

Understood, and no  argument from me on this, but, when I was writing, I was thinking of the current "hardwoods" which are not.

Hardwood is hardwood. Hardwood is a dense, durable material, but freshly ("current") cut hardwood contains natural moisture and should be properly aged or dried before use.

White ants aka termites, do not reside in cracks of hardwood. They are social insects that nesting in colonies close to their queen and the worker termites venture out to find food in dark and moist environments. But it is quite plausible that they be found on hardwood on their venture finding softwood or cellulose based material.

[Yellowtail]

refinish the floor and the shutters to match.

 

The fool looks to be 20 years old plus, and if it's okay until now, it will likely be fine. 

 

Hardwood floors squeak, but they are good for a lifetime with minimal attention. 

 

Unless it's high-end laminate and is installed perfectly on a SOLID subfloor it will look like cr*p in a year or two. 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Chris49 said:

I would not use OSB as it can absorb moisture and Thailand has a humid climate.

OSB is no more prone to absorption of moisture than plywood, it is actually less due to the amount of glue surface, you are thinking of MDF.

 

2 hours ago, Chris49 said:

Further, the plywood should be Tongue and Groove as well as Good One Side.

Good luck finding that. I have possible seen a little in one of the larger WoodStreet companies I have bought from but it is never stocked in any of the hundreds of places I have visited. But TIT YMMV 😉 

2 hours ago, Chris49 said:

You get what you pay for.

That is completely correct for plywood, though I have found a supplier who is passing on his bulk purchase abilities.

 

2 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

White ants aka termites, do not reside in cracks of hardwood.

While they possibly do not usually live there I can assure you that my ex-house posts have enough in them that I’m not going to cut mote planks from them as they will contain termites, if they are just passing through, holding conventions, or renting, I don’t care, I’m not introducing them to the workshop.

 

21 hours ago, Dr B said:

Attached are two photos of some plywood bought from a local timber shop in Krabi. The best they had, which was about By 800 per sheet if I remember correctly. Looked great on the outside, but when I sliced it up it was a different story. I used it for the top of my router table, and still find places where I can push therough the surface becasue there is a void in the laminations beneath.

The voids and overlaps are common in cheaper plywood and at 800 per sheet that is exactly what you got though the face veneer opposite to be better than the micron thin stuff.

 

I used MDF for one of my tables, though rubberwood is probably a better option, the finger jointed sheets in A or AA grade are really good, and even with the lower quality grades thy are not bad