Thailand's Expats Urged to Register with TRD for Tax, Says Expert

[samtam]

On 11/7/2024 at 3:22 PM, phitsanulokjohn said:

Here we are almost an hour long interview,straight from Tom Carden's mouth.

 

 

 

I thought this was quite a good interview. He seems to have changed his mind since then.

 

On 11/7/2024 at 3:58 PM, chiang mai said:

A wife and children are tax deductions, that was why I asked.

 

I had my deductions worked out to THB500k:

THB60k Personal Care Allowance

THB100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance

THB190k over 65

THB150k zero rate

 

Is that incorrect?

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

I thought this was quite a good interview. He seems to have changed his mind since then.

 

 

I had my deductions worked out to THB500k:

THB60k Personal Care Allowance

THB100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance

THB190k over 65

THB150k zero rate

 

Is that incorrect?

Correct

[samtam]

On 11/8/2024 at 10:33 AM, chiang mai said:

Technically, the requirement is to file a return, as long as you are tax resident and you have more than 60k in assessable income. Technically, if you don't, you can be subject to a fine....technically.  So the issue is not strictly owning money, it's about filing or not filing, in that context, Carden is more right than wrong.

 

18 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Correct

 

So in my case, if my income is below THB500K, I don't have to file. Actually, we are two unmarried people over 65 who live together, so we both have an allowance of THB500K + THB500K = THB1M; we have joint accounts worldwide and comingle funds.

[The Cyclist]

15 minutes ago, samtam said:

So in my case, if my income is below THB500K, I don't have to file.

 

I do not believe this is correct.

 

THB500k is the threshold that you would start to pay tax by applying your

 

19 hours ago, samtam said:

I had my deductions worked out to THB500k:

THB60k Personal Care Allowance

THB100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance

THB190k over 65

THB150k zero rate

 

This is not the same as the thresholds for filing a tax return which are 60K / 120K / 220K depending on the type of income and if you file as an Individual or a Couple.

 

That is my understanding on how it works. This also explains why the RD has about 4 million ' Nul ' tax returns each year.

 

4 million Tax returns filed, but no tax to pay.

 

As always, better to be safe than sorry. Try and file and let the RD direct you.

[samtam]

34 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I do not believe this is correct.

 

THB500k is the threshold that you would start to pay tax by applying your

 

 

This is not the same as the thresholds for filing a tax return which are 60K / 120K / 220K depending on the type of income and if you file as an Individual or a Couple.

 

That is my understanding on how it works. This also explains why the RD has about 4 million ' Nul ' tax returns each year.

 

4 million Tax returns filed, but no tax to pay.

 

As always, better to be safe than sorry. Try and file and let the RD direct you.

 

OK, thanks. I will inquire at RD.

[The Cyclist]

38 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

OK, thanks. I will inquire at RD.

 

It would be mental not to ask.

 

What is the worst that is going to happen ?
 

1. They tell you to go away

 

2. They give you a TIN, fill in a form and you pay no tax.

 

It's a no brainer for me. A once a year trip to the RD to keep on the straight and narrow.

[NoDisplayName]

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

It's a no brainer for me. A once a year trip to the RD to keep on the straight and narrow.

 

It's easier than that.

File once a year online.

 

My plan is first week of January, file FBAR online (10 minutes), file Thai tax online (10 minutes).  First week of March, after 1099's received, file US tax online (30 minutes).  Along with that I have 3-4 90-day reports to my probation officer, online (5 minutes each).

 

Only physical attendance is one day per year, bank statements (30 minutes), and extension renewal (1 hour), plus a couple hours driving back and forth to the big city.

 

As long as they don't go with worldwide taxation, we're good.

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

t's easier than that.

File once a year online.

 

It's even easier for me. I wont be filing anything.

 

Annual bank printout, attach P60, put in A4 envelope, mark envelope Thai Tax Year 2024 and stick in a drawer for safekeeping, should someone come knocking at my door for audit purposes.

 

But for those that are unsure. A trip to the RD to ask the question is the best way forward, unless they want to fork out for the Services of a Tax Consultant.

[NoDisplayName]

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

It's even easier for me. I wont be filing anything.

 

Annual bank printout, attach P60, put in A4 envelope, mark envelope Thai Tax Year 2024 and stick in a drawer for safekeeping, should someone come knocking at my door for audit purposes.

 

But for those that are unsure. A trip to the RD to ask the question is the best way forward, unless they want to fork out for the Services of a Tax Consultant.

 

That's a plan.  You are prepared.

 

I'm in the "if you don't owe tax, you don't need to file" camp.

 

I get a couple thousand back from interest and dividend withholding.

[Dcheech]

15 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

This is not the same as the thresholds for filing a tax return which are 60K / 120K / 220K depending on the type of income and if you file as an Individual or a Couple.

Where do you get these figures, specifically why one would file if over these amounts. Even if with deductions Thailand has, one would pay no tax.

Thanks  

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Dcheech said:

Where do you get these figures, specifically why one would file if over these amounts. Even if with deductions Thailand has, one would pay no tax.

Thanks  

They are the TRD threshold rates. The document below is the first one I came across and is dated 2021, they haven't changed since. See number 1.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265guide91.pdf

[chiang mai]

41 minutes ago, Dcheech said:

Where do you get these figures, specifically why one would file if over these amounts. Even if with deductions Thailand has, one would pay no tax.

Thanks  

Here's a better one:

 

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/tax-administration#:~:text=Individuals engaged in most forms,their spouse%2C whichever they prefer.

[Dcheech]

Made copies for my records. Thanks. 

[samtam]

On 11/17/2024 at 3:21 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

I do not believe this is correct.

 

THB500k is the threshold that you would start to pay tax by applying your

 

 

This is not the same as the thresholds for filing a tax return which are 60K / 120K / 220K depending on the type of income and if you file as an Individual or a Couple.

 

That is my understanding on how it works. This also explains why the RD has about 4 million ' Nul ' tax returns each year.

 

4 million Tax returns filed, but no tax to pay.

 

As always, better to be safe than sorry. Try and file and let the RD direct you.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 3:55 PM, samtam said:

 

OK, thanks. I will inquire at RD.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 4:37 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

It would be mental not to ask.

 

What is the worst that is going to happen ?
 

1. They tell you to go away

 

2. They give you a TIN, fill in a form and you pay no tax.

 

It's a no brainer for me. A once a year trip to the RD to keep on the straight and narrow.

 

Well, you certainly seem to be right about having to file, whether tax payment is due, or not:

 

I haven't yet been to RD, (my office is in Sathorn: Thai Chinese Chamber of Commerce, opposite Surasak BTS).

 

But in the meantime my office manager has been helping me, by ringing them up to find out whether I need to file (yes, apparently), and how I need to file.

 

Even though my income into Thailand is less than my TEDA, they still want me to file. I only need to show ATM withdrawal amount, (THB160K) and not credit card, but debit card amounts.

 

First, I need to apply for a Lor.Por.10.1 (to obtain a TIN). Then I need to complete a Por.Nor.Dor 90. However, having looked at the PND90, it is not obvious how or where I put in the sums and deductions, so yet another (4 or 5 so far) call to inquire.

 

Anyway, I'm not convinced that I really do need to obtain a TIN, (not as simple as just using my pink ID number, it will apparently be different to that 13 digit number)*, and then I need to file, and I suspect that when I try to get them to answer my question about how to complete the PND90, they may say "not necessary". A further call will be made, and then I will go and see them in person, with my Thai manager.

 

I didn't think this was going to be easy, and I was right.

 

*Maybe those who obtained their TIN with a pink ID had to complete this Lor.Por.10.1 form? 

Edited Wednesday at 11:53 AM by samtam

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

 

 

Well, you certainly seem to be right about having to file, whether tax payment is due, or not:

 

I haven't yet been to RD, (my office is in Sathorn: Thai Chinese Chamber of Commerce, opposite Surasak BTS).

 

But in the meantime my office manager has been helping me, by ringing them up to find out whether I need to file (yes, apparently), and how I need to file.

 

Even though my income into Thailand is less than my TEDA, they still want me to file. I only need to show ATM withdrawal amount, (THB160K) and not credit card, but debit card amounts.

 

First, I need to apply for a Lor.Por.10.1 (to obtain a TIN). Then I need to complete a Por.Nor.Dor 90. However, having looked at the PND90, it is not obvious how or where I put in the sums and deductions, so yet another (4 or 5 so far) call to inquire.

 

Anyway, I'm not convinced that I really do need to obtain a TIN, (not as simple as just using my pink ID number, it will apparently be different to that 13 digit number)*, and then I need to file, and I suspect that when I try to get them to answer my question about how to complete the PND90, they may say "not necessary". A further call will be made, and then I will go and see them in person, with my Thai manager.

 

I didn't think this was going to be easy, and I was right.

 

*Maybe those who obtained their TIN with a pink ID had to complete this Lor.Por.10.1 form? 

Thank you for posting this, game set and match to the exact wording of the Revenue Code I believe.

[The Cyclist]

25 minutes ago, samtam said:

Well, you certainly seem to be right about having to file, whether tax payment is due, or not:

 

Kudos for coming back with your update. Hopefully it will be beneficial for some who are still confused over filing limits and limits where you start to pay tax.

 

They, as I understood, are 2 very different things.

 

25 minutes ago, samtam said:

*Maybe those who obtained their TIN with a pink ID had to complete this Lor.Por.10.1 form? 

 

On this I have no idea. I took steps in November 2023 to limit remittances in 2024 to my Government Pension. 

 

No tax, no filing, easy life"

Edited Wednesday at 12:18 PM by The Cyclist

[redwood1]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Kudos for coming back with your update. Hopefully it will be beneficial for some who are still confused over filing limits and limits where you start to pay tax.

 

They, as I understood, are 2 very different things.

 

 

On this I have no idea. I took steps in November 2023 to limit remittances in 2024 to my Government Pension. 

 

No tax, no filing, easy life"

 

The vast majority of expats in Thailand from between 50 and 100 countries from all over the world have no confusion over filing limits at all...Because they will not not be filing jack EVER in the future....Problem solved....The Indians and Chinese will barter for ages in the markets  to save 5 or 10 baht...lol.....If that tells you any thing...

[NoDisplayName]

5 hours ago, samtam said:

Anyway, I'm not convinced that I really do need to obtain a TIN, (not as simple as just using my pink ID number, it will apparently be different to that 13 digit number)*,

 

You do not need a separate TIN.

You file using your pink ID number.

If you file online, you must visit the TRD office and have them activate it for use with the online filing system.

[NoDisplayName]

5 hours ago, samtam said:

Even though my income into Thailand is less than my TEDA, they still want me to file. I only need to show ATM withdrawal amount, (THB160K) and not credit card, but debit card amounts.

 

You brought in 160K baht via ATM.

How much of that was current year income?

[samtam]

8 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You brought in 160K baht via ATM.

How much of that was current year income?

 

All of it, so it's taxable. However, it's within my TEDA, so there is nothing to pay on it.

[samtam]

8 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You do not need a separate TIN.

You file using your pink ID number.

If you file online, you must visit the TRD office and have them activate it for use with the online filing system.

 

Thanks. Maybe there is a misunderstanding between the interlocutors that I am filing online. I will inquire further.

[4myr]

After reading so many opinions on this forum, I was wondering does my approach make sense?

 

1) Coming years I'll try to stay under the radar, by remitting below 1M baht.
It is remitted over various means i.e. Wise online, foreign debit card expenses and physical cash imports from friends visiting Thailand.

 

2) Till I'm retired, all of my remitted income is non assessable, i.e. savings/income before 2024 or DTA exemptions

 

3) I have a pink Thai ID, but I will not file a tax return, not even a nil tax return.
My self assessment says I do not have assessable income. In the past I never asked a return of witholding tax of my Thai bank interest 

 

4) in case I get a random audit, what will I do:

Yearly I keep evidence records of my non assessable income, my home country tax assessments and my remittance transactions.
All is summarized on a spreadsheet.
My different income streams are funneled from 1-2 home country bank accounts thru 1 Wise account to 1 Thai bank account.
It is impossible to tag the the income source on each remittance. However on my spreadsheet I make note of it.
I'll make yearly pdf backups of all my bank transactions in my home country, Wise and my foreign debit card.
So will be easy to search and show evidence in case of an audit.

 

I spoke to the local tax office before. They disputed my DTA tax exemptions.
On the other hand 2 tax lawyers in my home country with experience on the DTA agree with me.
A Pattaya tax lawyer also confirmed my reading. In case of a dispute, I'll hire this local tax lawyer to handle my case 

 

Finally we are planning to buy a car in 2025. The car will be on my wife's name.
She can get a 2 year car loan with 0%. So the money can be remitted in smaller amounts over 2-3 years. 

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, samtam said:

 

All of it, so it's taxable. However, it's within my TEDA, so there is nothing to pay on it.

 

I was misreading your earlier post.  When you spoke of your office manager, I thought you were working here.  Reread, and it seems that's the office manager of your local TRD of whom you spake?  So you have no Thailand income.

 

I'm not a tax advisor or expert, but in the case of remitting current income, I would file a return regardless.  I believe under the law, although not currently enforced, if you bring in >60K of assessable income, you must file a return even if no tax due.  I'd file to cover your posterior just in case.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I was misreading your earlier post.  When you spoke of your office manager, I thought you were working here.  Reread, and it seems that's the office manager of your local TRD of whom you spake?  So you have no Thailand income.

 

I'm not a tax advisor or expert, but in the case of remitting current income, I would file a return regardless.  I believe under the law, although not currently enforced, if you bring in >60K of assessable income, you must file a return even if no tax due.  I'd file to cover your posterior just in case.

 

Sorry, my "office manager" is my condo office manager, who is doing me a favour by talking to TRD in Sathorn. Yes, correct, I have no income in Thailand. I am over 65, so have a TEDA of THB500K pa. Based on the discussion between my condo office manager and TRD Sathorn, my "income" that I bring in, from UK pension and dividends, is below the TEDA. TRD Sathorn want me to file nonetheless, so I will oblige, and have prepared my transactions for my files, although they will not want to see this at the filing, but may call for it at a later date, if they want to audit.

 

As I noted, the filing of a "null" return seems to be required, for this office at least. Others have said completely the opposite, from their own experience at their local RD, which I do not doubt. TRD seems to have a different policy in different offices, which is the norm here, (based on IMM experiences and related). 

 

As to application of a TIN, see below.

[samtam]

5 hours ago, samtam said:

 

Thanks. Maybe there is a misunderstanding between the interlocutors that I am filing online. I will inquire further.

 

I asked about this again today. And it is the same answer: I need to complete a Lor.Por 10.1 to obtain a TIN, regardless of whether I am filing online, or in person, or by mail. It will not be the same as my Thai pink ID card 13 digit number; apparently it will begin with "1".

 

Again, it seems there may be completely different experiences, as recounted by others, but I can only go on what has been advised by TRD Sathorn. When I actually file, it may be a different story, but I have been told I have to complete the LP10.1 before I can file, and I have to file. 

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, 4myr said:

I spoke to the local tax office before. They disputed my DTA tax exemptions.

That's curious. Could you elaborate? Thanx.

[4myr]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

That's curious. Could you elaborate? Thanx.

It was April this year. Spoke with a lawyer in the lawyers office room and with 2 from the operational dept. And a lot of bystanders in the room listening at the conversation, including the head of the lawyer office. I had English and Thai copies of the Dutch DTA taken from the Thai RD website.

 

My DTA exemptions regards director fees I receive from my own private limited company based in the Netherlands. And also capital gains from property based in the Netherlands. I read the clauses of exemptions in Thai and English several times before.  Also had the confirmation of the Dutch tax lawyers before I entered the meeting.

 

The lawyer did not say a word throughout the meeting. One employee of the operational dept was very vocal and said that in the history of the cases she handled, there was not an instance of exemptions. Then she said incorrect things. She said that in my case tax credits would be allowed. However in the DTA tax credits were not stated for these income sources. In the end she made a suggestion - one way to not to pay tax is not to be tax resident on the year that I want to remit a lot of money. This factually is also incorrect. Because it depends whether the income source remitted was earned on a year whether you are tax resident or not. 

 

So trust level of local Thai RD went through the bottom. And sending an email to the Bangkok central RD law department also did not give hope - no reply. In the end I did not have the energy left to setup a meeting with a tax office more experienced in handling foreigner cases like in Bangkok. 

[Neeranam]

On 11/7/2024 at 5:21 AM, webfact said:

Tax expert Thomas Carden has advised expatriates residing in Thailand for 180 days or more in 2024 to obtain a tax identification number from the Thai Revenue Department (TRD).

Another 'expert' spreading fear to make money off gullible pensioners?

I have a relative in the Tax dept. who say there is no need.  

[chiang mai]

32 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Another 'expert' spreading fear to make money off gullible pensioners?

I have a relative in the Tax dept. who say there is no need.  

No need to what?

[Neeranam]

33 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

No need to what?

Voluntary start paying tax by stupidly going to the revenue dept asking for a Tax ID.

Edited 20 hours ago by Neeranam