K bank E-mail with Tax Forms attached ?

[The Cyclist]

56 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Wrong as usual,

60k me, 60k wife, 190k over 60, 150k pension, 150k at 0% and a child in school.

 

I make that 610k (without the kid) and no need to file on earned income alone.

 

Really ?
 

You are the one that is confusing tax filing levels of

 

1.  60k / 120k / 220k. I'll repeat tax filing levels.

 

2. With Deductions and allowances.

 

No wonder that you are bouncing around rather confused

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

and having one or not, wont alter your tax liability in the event TRD wants to examine your books.

What tax liability? I have none, because my assessable income is exceeded by TEDA, and the 150k freebie. Thus, no tax liability. And, I would imagine, TRD is not interested in audits for anyone without a TIN, especially for a random compliance audit-- i.e., a TIN puts you on their radar screen. No thanks. I just wonder where KBank got their instructions, on their page one of request for info, that "No Thai TIN needed if no taxable income." Maybe they, and all those TRDs sending away posters here asking for TINs, with no taxable income -- have access to adult sources of govt......

 

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

And it does mean that having one will increase your rate of interest on bank savings interest by 15%.

If the bank will accept that TIN to stop withholding -- not a given. But for Yanks, not having one means you can insert your Thai taxes on interest on a single line of your 1040 -- and reduce one for one your US taxes. No need, nor effort, for a Thai TIN, nor efforts to recover those lost Thai taxes, should you have to file to recover. Just one entry on your US 1040. No brainer.

 

Anyway, the real red flag here are those 60/120/220k thresholds that say you must file a return -- and thus get a TIN -- if assessable income exceeds one of these thresholds. Very unrealistic -- and thus not (knowlingly) enforced. Case in point: All my household help, if they complied with the law, would have to get a TIN and file a return. Not likely, considering they don't have the time nor the ability to do such. I'm sure this applies to most all the self employed in Thailand -- you really think all those rice farmers, maids, gardeners, street vendors, etc -- are going to file if they pass a threshold?  Of course not. Thus these thresholds are essentially meaningless -- and certainly would not be enforced by an even half-rational TRD.

 

So, save yourself wasted time by being denied a TIN at your local TRD -- and wasted shoe leather. Or even the advertised 7000-12000 baht fee by agents to get you a TIN, should a TRD denial , because you have no taxable income, force you down this path.

 

Bottom line: For sure, if you have Thai taxable income, and thus owe Thai taxes -- get a TIN and file a tax return. Otherwise, ignore agent advertisement that push you to get an unnecessary TIN -- for a high fee. And ignore do-gooders on this forum, whose reason for pushing getting a TIN -- is beyond me. These are the same folks who claim, "I'm not giving advice." But I certainly am -- when I suggest tidbits to help the reader decide for himself.

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

What tax liability?

The one that I said that obtaining a TIN, wouldn't be altered when I wrote, "it won't alter your tax liability" 

 

"If the bank will accept that TIN to stop withholding -- not a given". The common established practise reports to date are that they will, including me.

 

"But for Yanks... blah blah", but not the remaining 98.44% of the foreign expat population. 

 

There are around 40,230 American expats living in Thailand, which is about 1.56% of the country's foreign population.

 

Please stop telling us about the tax issues of your household help, we know already nd are unlikely to ever forget, even if we try!

 

"you really think all those rice farmers, maids, gardeners, street vendors, etc -- are going to file if they pass a threshold"?  Maids gardeners and rice farmers typically don't receive overseas pension income every month in Thailand equivalent to three and four times the average national wage.

 

 

 

 

[The Cyclist]

12 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I just wonder where KBank got their instructions, on their page one of request for info, that "No Thai TIN needed if no taxable income."

 

Been through this before.

 

KBank and every other bank require this information to comply with CRS. This is not banks being a PITA, It is not Thailand being a PITA, it is required to comply with the reporting procedures dictated by an International agreement that Thailand has signed up to.

 

Again, you are confusing reporting limits with taxation limits once allownces and deductions are applied.

 

If your interpretation is correct X - Y = Z, therfore no need to file, why does the RD have this

 

Quote

2. Appeal in dispute of tax assessment

In the case where a taxpayer disagrees with the assessment made by the assessment officer, he has the right to appeal to the Commission of Appeals (in the form P.S.6) within 30 days starting from the day which an assessment notice has been received.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23517.html

 

Do you see who makes an assessment of assessable income ? An assessment Officer, not an individual.

 

If it was up to individuals, there would be no need for a dispute resolution mechanism, every filing would be spot on.

[Yumthai]

57 minutes ago, JimGant said:

And ignore do-gooders on this forum, whose reason for pushing getting a TIN -- is beyond me. These are the same folks who claim, "I'm not giving advice." But I certainly am -- when I suggest tidbits to help the reader decide for himself.

I concur. Actually these like-minded folks are very few, but as usual minority needs to be loud to preach their truth.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I concur. Actually these like-minded folks are very few, but as usual minority needs to be loud to preach their truth.

You and Gant don't seem to have enough drama in your lives and seem to always want to stir things up and create friction by making accusations and being abusive. Neither one of you seems even a little bit willing to accept that others don't share your opinions and have different views and as a penalty, such people must be degraded when ever possible. We don't call you criminals for ignoring the TFRD Code yet you seem willing enough to call us do -gooders for following the law. I think the problem must be that you're bored and lonely and want to keep having these circular discussions that have no end, just to let everyone know you;re still out there, fighting the good fight but not mature enough to accept that different views exist and to move on to other new things.  Sad really.

[JimGant]

27 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I think the problem must be that you're bored and lonely and want to keep having these circular discussions that have no end,

This circular discussion was once again brought up by you, a few posts ago, the one I responded to -- you know, the "Hand on heart I don't understand why folks are so averse to obtaining a Thai TIN." We've been over and over the pros and cons of this, to the point that it's getting ridiculous. The reader can digest your views and my views -- and then decide for himself. Give it a rest, and allow the clear thinkers to drive over the speed limit, if they assess the advantage far exceeds any potential penalty.

 

So, shut up about getting a TIN if assessable income exceeds 60k baht -- and I'll shut up about my workers rightfully ignoring their requirement to file a tax return.

[Yumthai]

35 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You and Gant don't seem to have enough drama in your lives and seem to always want to stir things up and create friction by making accusations and being abusive. Neither one of you seems even a little bit willing to accept that others don't share your opinions and have different views and as a penalty, such people must be degraded when ever possible. We don't call you criminals for ignoring the TFRD Code yet you seem willing enough to call us do -gooders for following the law. I think the problem must be that you're bored and lonely and want to keep having these circular discussions that have no end, just to let everyone know you;re still out there, fighting the good fight but not mature enough to accept that different views exist and to move on to other new things.  Sad really.

The art of inverting the roles. You're the one who can't accept contrarian opinions, not the other way around. Your constant proselytistic posting is readily available to readers.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

This circular discussion was once again brought up by you, a few posts ago, the one I responded to -- you know, the "Hand on heart I don't understand why folks are so averse to obtaining a Thai TIN." We've been over and over the pros and cons of this, to the point that it's getting ridiculous. The reader can digest your views and my views -- and then decide for himself. Give it a rest, and allow the clear thinkers to drive over the speed limit, if they assess the advantage far exceeds any potential penalty.

 

So, shut up about getting a TIN if assessable income exceeds 60k baht -- and I'll shut up about my workers rightfully ignoring their requirement to file a tax return.

I didn't post about the 60k assessable income threshold, I posted a general observation as follows:

 

"Hand on heart I don't understand why folks are so averse to obtaining a Thai TIN, it's not like they're being told to contract HIV or develop cancer, it's just a tax ID and having one or not, wont alter your tax liability in the event TRD wants to examine your books. And it does mean that having one will increase your rate of interest on bank savings interest by 15%. But I suppose if not getting one means you think that nobody will know you exist, jeeze, what can be said about that!"

 

 

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The art of inverting the roles. You're the one who can't accept contrarian opinions, not the other way around. Your constant proselytistic posting is readily available to readers.

I've asked many times that people post evidence to support their views but nobody has. I have posted a number of pieces of supportive evidence, including extracts from the TRD, Bangkok news paper articles and quotes from legal firms. Thus far, my evidence far outweighs your rhetoric and emotion. If you want me to accept your contrarian view, you'll need to support it with something more than just hot air and abusive language.

[Jingthing]

I have a fun question.

I intend to file Kbank form even though they didn't email me and I also don't intend to get a TIN as I won't have any Thai accessible income this year.

But Iikely will have such income at a later year.

So then I will probably get a TIN and file (assuming it's clear by now that Thai Revenue is actually enforcing anything on retired expats with no in Thailand income (it should be clear by then).

So then I should go in an update or not bother?

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I have a fun question.

I intend to file Kbank form even though they didn't email me and I also don't intend to get a TIN as I won't have any Thai accessible income this year.

But Iikely will have such income at a later year.

So then I will probably get a TIN and file (assuming it's clear by now that Thai Revenue is actually enforcing anything on retired expats with no in Thailand income (it should be clear by then).

So then I should go in an update or not bother?

If you aren't asked to do so, I wouldn't.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

Do you see who makes an assessment of assessable income ? An assessment Officer, not an individual.

 

If it was up to individuals, there would be no need for a dispute resolution mechanism, every filing would be spot on.

No, go back and read all the lead-up to where an assessment officer enters the picture. It's where a return is "suspect" because of math errors, or some other out-of-sync number inclusions. The routinely filed "self-assessed" return will -- unless it raises a flag of some sort -- just be accepted, with the payment banked, or the over withheld taxes refunded. I would assume they have some kind of software algorithm to do a cursory screening of tax returns for blatant errors. But it's nonsensical, from a cost standpoint, to have assessment officers hold everyone's hand, and go over their tax returns -- at least initially. But, if problems discovered down the road, then, yeah, time to come to TRD for an audit.

[JimGant]

41 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If you want me to accept your contrarian view, you'll need to support it with something more than just hot air and abusive language.

How about common sense?

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

How about common sense?

 

If it's a question of common sense versus what the Revenue Code states, the Code wins. If it's a members views versus a law firms publication or a national newspaper article, common sense takes second place.

 

Common sense varies from person to person, some people have none. It's hardly an objective benchmark by which to make important, potentially life changing decisions, in a foreign land that is still developing. 

 

If you or anyone else has evidence to dispute the various issues I have provided evidence for, post it and let's see it's merits. But let's not go round this loop yet again, either accept that we have different perspectives or dispute mine with evidence. Put up or shut up.

 

[JimGant]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

But let's not go round this loop yet again,

Right. So don't post any more "hand on heart" input on this subject. The smart readers already have enough info from which to decide on whether or not getting a TIN is required.

[chiang mai]

16 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Right. So don't post any more "hand on heart" input on this subject. The smart readers already have enough info from which to decide on whether or not getting a TIN is required.

You don't get to tell me what I may and may not post. But I do guarantee I will not post with the intention of baiting you or belittling you personally because of the opinions you hold. That said, if you make a claim about what is right or wrong and advise accordingly, you will need to be able to support it with reliable evidence.

Edited 3 hours ago by chiang mai

[The Cyclist]

51 minutes ago, JimGant said:

No, go back and read all the lead-up to where an assessment officer enters the picture. It's where a return is "suspect" because of math errors, or some other out-of-sync number inclusions.

 

I have now gave you 2 different parts of the Revenue Code where it states a Revenue Officer will 

 

1. Make an assessment and tell you how much tax you have to pay

 

2. What to do if you do not agree with the assessment of the Assessment Officer.

 

It is in black and white in the Revenue Code.

 

How that pans out with online filing I have no idea, but I am not convinced they will be up to speed with algorithms and given the propensity for large amounts of people and wasting forests, I'm inclined to believe that online filing will be gone through manually.

 

However, none of that addresses the other point where I believe you are going wrong. 

 

Which is actual tax filing, which, according to the Revenue Code  is assessable income above the 60k / 120k / 220k limits requires a tax return to be filed, and not as you believe, total assessable income, minus TEDA's, takes me below those thresholds and therefore have no need to file anything.

 

That needs clarified by the RD, as I believe you are reading it wrong.

 

 

[JimGant]

46 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If it's a question of common sense versus what the Revenue Code states, the Code wins.

If the Code is so nonsensical, as in the "must file if assessable income is 60k, and thus must get a TIN" -- and then it appears TRD pays no attention to enforcing it -- I think this is a prima facie case for "common sense."

[Yumthai]

52 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If it's a question of common sense versus what the Revenue Code states, the Code wins. If it's a members views versus a law firms publication or a national newspaper article, common sense takes second place.

Any Code is worthless if not enforced. You keep dismissing tax enforcement or speculate rules will be enforced without any evidence it will.

[chiang mai]

Just now, JimGant said:

If the Code is so nonsensical, as in the "must file if assessable income is 60k, and thus must get a TIN" -- and then it appears TRD pays no attention to enforcing it -- I think this is a prima facie case for "common sense."

 

I think you only have anecdotal data on what the TRD enforces and what it doesn't. You are in no position to substitute your personal "common sense" view, in place of that data and pretend it's national policy.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Any Code is worthless if not enforced. You keep dismissing tax enforcement or speculate rules will be enforced without any evidence it will.

I keep dismissing your enforcement aspect for the same reason I dismissed Gant;s earlier opinion:

 

"I think you only have anecdotal data on what the TRD enforces and what it doesn't. You are in no position to substitute your personal "common sense" view, in place of that data and pretend it's national policy".

 

But as I posted previously, the Bangkok Post confirms that several million "null" tax returns were filed in 2023, so somebody must be enforcing something somewhere, either that or Thai people are public spirited and like to follow the letter of the tax law!!!

Edited 3 hours ago by chiang mai

[JimGant]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Which is actual tax filing, which, according to the Revenue Code  is assessable income above the 60k / 120k / 220k limits requires a tax return to be filed, and not as you believe, total assessable income, minus TEDA's, takes me below those thresholds and therefore have no need to file anything.

 

I know what the Code says in relation to 60/120/220 thresholds for filing. I'm saying, forget the 60/120/220 thresholds, and only file when you have taxable income. As such, there's no tax evasion involved -- so you are in no risk of a fine on non existent tax owed. Just forget the 60/120/220 rule -- at no reportable risk to yourself. And, for most reading this, with below TEDA assessable income -- no need to try and get a TIN from a TRD, that throws you out for trying to get one -- with no taxable income. Sigh.

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I know what the Code says in relation to 60/120/220 thresholds for filing. I'm saying, forget the 60/120/220 thresholds, and only file when you have taxable income. As such, there's no tax evasion involved -- so you are in no risk of a fine on non existent tax owed. Just forget the 60/120/220 rule -- at no reportable risk to yourself. And, for most reading this, with below TEDA assessable income -- no need to try and get a TIN from a TRD, that throws you out for trying to get one -- with no taxable income. Sigh.

Same old unsupportable nonsense of Jim's laws on tax:

 

Tax returns

 

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/tax-administration

[JJ Madcow]

Got the E-Mail last week and print out the formulars.
I go the the bank today.
Was told it was head office that wanted a update on all foreigner account, And put into the new computer program.

 

They want to know if i was a American and if no, What country i am from, Denmark.

What income i have, Danish Social disability pension.
If i pay tax in Denmark or Thailand, I do to Denmark.

 

Danish Tax Id Number and last post code and city when i lived back in Denmark.

 

They ask if i have Thai pink ID card, And i do, So they put some information in from it.

And then they printe out a few papers that i sign.

 

And was told "Maybe" every 2-3 years i be ask to come back in and update the informations.

As it was first time the staff at my branch have to use the new program, It take around 40-50 minutes.

 

All i want is to give some feedback to the forum, Sorry for my bad English.

Kindly.

Edited 3 hours ago by JJ Madcow

[JimGant]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I think you only have anecdotal data on what the TRD enforces and what it doesn't

You're right. What we've heard is that the fine for failure to file, when no taxes owed, is 2000 baht. We've never seen an example of that -- not that it's not occurred. But, you're right -- I'll tell my gardener and maid they best take a day off and try and get a TIN. Then, in Jan -- since they can't read or write -- go hire a tax agent to file a null tax return -- maybe they can get a deal for 5000 baht.

 

Or, maybe I'll say -- just forget any stupid advice you might hear from a forum. Sit back, do nothing -- and take a 1% chance, or less, of paying a 2000 baht fine for not filing a null tax return (how in the world would authorities determine that need to file?). Vs paying 5000 baht for an agent to file a return.

 

Anyway, I seem to keep inventing new definitions for common sense.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, JJ Madcow said:

Got the E-Mail last week and print out the formulars.
I go the the bank today.
Was told it was head office that wanted a update on all foreigner account, And put into the new computer program.

 

They want to know if i was a American and if no, What country i am from, Denmark.

What income i have, Danish Social disability pension.
If i pay tax in Denmark or Thailand, I do to Denmark.

 

Danish Tax Id Number and last post code and city when i life back in Denmark.

 

They ask if i have Thai pink ID card, And i do, So they put some information in from it.

And then they printe out a few papers that i sign.

 

And was told "Maybe" every 2-3 years i be ask to come back in and update the informations.

As it was first time the staff at my branch have to use the new program, It take around 40-50 minutes.

 

All i want is to give some feedback to the forum, Sorry for my bad English.

Kindly.

My feedback.

So they wanted your Danish tax ID.

They got your Thai Tax ID too because that's the same as your yellow book.

If you're in Thailand more than 180 days a year you're a Thailand tax resident regardless.

If your pension is EXEMPTED from taxation in Thailand, you can bring it all to Thailand and none of it is accessible as far as Thai taxation and no need to file here either. To know this, you need to find out the terms of the Denmark Thailand Double Taxation Agreement I seriously doubt the bank would know anything about that. Scratch that, I would bet the house they wouldn't know -- they're not revenue agency, they're a banK!

I am not sure if it was correct to use your Denmark address rather than your Thai address as I'm assuming you live in Thailand and are a Thai tax resident here (over 180 days).

I don't like the bank making these decisions for people on how to fill out those forms. I DO NOT trust them. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Jingthing

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Sit back, do nothing -- and take a 1% chance, or less, of paying a 2000 baht fine for not filing a null tax return

 

You don't know if it's 1% or any other percent, why would anyone try to quantify something they have almost zero knowledge of.

[Yumthai]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

"I think you only have anecdotal data on what the TRD enforces and what it doesn't. You are in no position to substitute your personal "common sense" view, in place of that data and pretend it's national policy".

 

But as I posted previously, the Bangkok Post confirms that several million "null" tax returns were filed in 2023, so somebody must be enforcing something somewhere, either that or Thai people are public spirited and like to follow the letter of the tax law!!!

If you want to believe rules are or will be strictly enforced in Thailand it's up to you.

If you assess enforcement risk is high it's up to you.

Others have different opinions.

[Jingthing]

To clarify this, there are two levels.
Being required to file even if you'll owe no tax, and being required to file if you do owe.

Not everyone is required to file at all. 

As far as how aggressively they're going to enforce this stuff on foreigners who aren't working or earning money otherwise in Thailand, nobody can say.

So I guess it's best to assess your personal situation, which really will be different for each person, and make your own decision about compliance.