That which was never born can never die, therefore deathless. Is this "awareness"?

[rockyysdt]

In the teachings of the Buddha, there are a number of high level elements.

 

If I am incorrect in these, please correct me.

 

• That which was never born can never die (deathless).
• As our ego is an accumulation of conditioning over our life/lives, it is impermanent.
• Death is followed by endless cycles of re birth into future lives, driven by attachment to craving.
• The cycle of re birth continues, until one is awakened as a result of practice resulting in the quenching of craving.

 

Is the process of deep meditation (awareness without thought) the path to becoming aware of the unconditioned or deathless state (this state already exists, but we are unaware of it)?

 

If so, is this that which is common to the re born states? Is this that which "awakens"?

 

If there is nothing beyond the cessation of re birth, isn't this annihilation, as at least re birth gives you future cycles of life, all be it, good ones as well as bad ones?

 

Or, if pure unconditioned awareness is that which continues, why are we unaware of it during the unconscious state?

 

 

 

 

 

[khaowong1]

I think there are a lot of the Buddha's teaching's that are always going to be confusion for us.  Since the Buddha didn't speak English and it was a hundred years or so after he died before anyone thought to write down these teachings, I'm sure a lot of them were misconstrued.  Same as the teachings of Jesus.  

[save the frogs]

Trick question.

If there's a Buddhist teaching that doesn't seem to make any sense, is it because you're too stupid to understand it or is it because it's bullcrap?

Here is a Buddhist book I recommend to everyone. It's not written by a monk in a cave that has nothing to do all day except masturbate mentally and come up with flowery language.

 

It's written by a humble taxi driver who is reflecting on his own life and trying to apply some basic Buddhist principles to his own life. 

 

 

[VincentRJ]

Hi Rocky,
Your questions require complex answers, so it's not surprising you have had few replies. However, I'll delve into them because I have been thinking about these issues for some time.
1. That which was never born can never die. 
Basic logic would imply 'that which is never born' doesn't exist. However, the process of being 'born' has many stages. The first stage is the fertilized egg know as the embryo, which travels through the fallopian tube to the uterus. The next stage is the development of the fetus which is the unborn child in the mother's womb. The final stage is the actual birth of the child.
As we should all know, the unborn, developing child can die at any time, therefore the statement 'That which was never born can never die'  is clearly not true. 
2. As our ego is an accumulation of conditioning over our life/lives, it is impermanent.
This would appear to be logically true since nothing, in the environment we normally observe, is permanent. Everything is changing or degrading at different rates. However, there might be microscopic things that most people don't normally observe, which are permanent, such as fundamental particles that are subatomic particles which are not composed of other particles. Science is not certain about the permanence of such particles.
3. Death is followed by endless cycles of re birth into future lives, driven by attachment to craving.
Rebirth in Buddhism is a rather confusing issue. On the one hand, the Buddha claims that there is no permanent soul and no permanent Creator God, and that what is reborn are just the 'characteristics' of one's behaviour in this life. On the other hand, there is a detailed description in the Pali Canon of the night under the Bodhi tree when the Buddha reached enlightenment, recalling dozens of his previous lives in great detail, including his name and activities. This is more than just characteristics.
The questions we should ask ourselves is, 'How can rebirth of behaviour and characteristics be reborn?' 'Is there some magical spirit, outside the realms of science, that floats around, waiting to inject itself into a female's womb at the time of conception?'
In Buddhism, karma is the idea that our actions, especially those driven by intention, have consequences that affect us in the present and future.

 

How does this happen? Well, I think it's not too difficult to understand how it happens in the present. If you steal or murder, there will be dire consequences if you are caught. If you over-eat unwholesome food and don't bother exercising, you will likely become obese and suffer from many ailments.
However, how our intentional actions affect the future with regard to rebirth, is more complicated. Physical rebirth can only take place through the process of copulation, with regard to animals and humans, and usually through the process of seed germination with regard to plants, although some plants can grow without seeds through a process called 'asexual propagation' which involves a part of the plant, such as a stem or root regenerating into a new plant, with nutrition from the soil.

 

During the times of the Buddha, there was no knowledge of genes. Why apparently good people could somtimes suffer and die unexpectedly, was a puzzle. An explanation was Karma. The apparently good person died prematurely as a result of bad actions in a previous life. This is merely a speculative hypothesis.

 

Modern science reveals not only that genetic defects can be transmitted from the parents to the children, but there is also a process called 'epigentics' which can transmit the 'behaviour' of the parents to their children. Epigenetics is the study of the heritable changes in the genome that are independent of variations in DNA sequences.

 

Another example of how our actions in the present, 'Karma', can affect future generations, are the consequences of War. Even when the war has ended, future generations often feel, and pass on, the hatred towards the enemy. The most obvious examples are the current wars in Ukraine, Palestine, Jordan and Syria. These never-ending conflicts are the effects of Karma, passed down through generations.
4.The cycle of re birth continues, until one is awakened as a result of practice resulting in the quenching of craving.
When a living organism dies, the rotting carcass, animal or vegetable, provides nutrients for future growth. Anyone who does not have children achieves Nirvana on their death. There is no rebirth of any characteristics, without successful copulation.

[Brucenkhamen]

Quote

Or, if pure unconditioned awareness is that which continues, why are we unaware of it during the unconscious state?

 

You've hit the nail on the head, awareness aka consciousness is just a mental process, one of the five aggregates, subject to impermanence and arising and passing away according to causes and conditions.

 

Spiritual traditions that get fascinated with and deify awareness because it seems so profound and ever present to a spiritual seeker who discovers it (except when its not) fall short of the liberation that the Buddha recommended.

[rockyysdt]

On 12/10/2024 at 7:07 AM, Brucenkhamen said:

Spiritual traditions that get fascinated with and deify awareness because it seems so profound and ever present to a spiritual seeker who discovers it (except when its not) fall short of the liberation that the Buddha recommended.

Thanks Bruce.

 

Can you expound a little?

Are you saying "some deify pure unconditioned awareness but that this state is also simply part of the aggregates and therefore impermanent?"

 

If so, what is there beyond, and/or was beyond never part of the teaching?

[Brucenkhamen]

On 12/23/2024 at 12:56 AM, rockyysdt said:

Are you saying "some deify pure unconditioned awareness but that this state is also simply part of the aggregates and therefore impermanent?"

 

If so, what is there beyond, and/or was beyond never part of the teaching?

 

Kind of, I'm saying awareness is a mental process therefore is conditioned and impermanent, there is no such thing as "pure unconditioned awareness".

 

Clinging and craving such ideas is just clinging and craving for permanence.

 

The Buddha taught the understanding of the nature of suffering and the ending of suffering, through among other things the acceptance of impermanence, the idea of there being "something beyond" crept back in later mostly the re-integration of pre-Buddhist philosophies.

[rockyysdt]

4 hours ago, Brucenkhamen said:

 

there is no such thing as "pure unconditioned awareness".

 

Clinging and craving such ideas is just clinging and craving for permanence.

 

The Buddha taught the understanding of the nature of suffering and the ending of suffering, through among other things the acceptance of impermanence, the idea of there being "something beyond" crept back in later mostly the re-integration of pre-Buddhist philosophies.

 

 

 

Thanks Bruce.

 

I'm thinking "one can logically accept that attachment & craving to anything impermanent will lead to suffering, without the need to practice for ones lifetime."

 

Then what occurs when one becomes enlightened or awakened?

Wasn't this an entree into "that which was never born"?

 

Or did the Buddha craft his words to make his teaching appear to include something beyond.

An ambiguity in order to protect himself from offending religious adherents of the time.

 

And why would one embark on years of dedicated practice and asceticism in order to have actual experience of the folly of attachment & craving?

 

If ones attachments & craving revolve around wholesome pursuits, what is wrong with craving?

 

Aren't these attributes, practiced with an element of control and moderation, valuable as they provide the drive towards

pursuits, wholesome or not?

 

If what you're saying is correct, then why deny oneself of the pleasures which life can offer with moderation and care for others?

We are impermanent with a limited number of years of existence we were fortunate to find ourselves with.

What is the reward of denying oneself of these in the pursuit of actual experience of impermanence?

 

In terms of ending suffering, if one is impermanent doesn't death end suffering?

If not, that which we are (our impermanent selves), which is all that we know cannot suffer if expired.