Brian Thompson’s killing sparks outrage over state of US healthcare

[Screaming]

3 hours ago, Dcheech said:

Back to whining about Obama?!  

 Obamacare is a step in the right direction. However one that Republicans have sworn, repeatedly, to destroy, except they can't, because healthcare insurance in the US is so fricking bleak. Donald claimed he would 8 years ago. He was going to replace it with something 'so good, so great,  so beautiful', the usual Donald verbal spew, but he did nothing. Just more BS, from the President of BS.

 

Trump truly tried to change the socialist Obamacare but the socialist Democrats in Congress prevented him. So he will try again to present a better healthcare system but I do not hold out too much hope as long as the socialists in Congress keep fighting him.

[Dave0206]

11 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Trump truly tried to change the socialist Obamacare but the socialist Democrats in Congress prevented him. So he will try again to present a better healthcare system but I do not hold out too much hope as long as the socialists in Congress keep fighting him.

Change it with what? If its something better very good. Telling people it's going to be great surely after 8 years the plan is ready for unveiling? There was a vote john mccaine that commie socialist gave it the thumbs down the replacement was not even given only it's going to be better 

[Old Curmudgeon]

22 hours ago, Old Curmudgeon said:

Was it just another hoax???

 

The Healthcare CEO's Murder is Another Fake.

 

Lots of evidence at that link points to "hoax".

 

 

Hoax?

Or not?

[impulse]

23 minutes ago, Old Curmudgeon said:

 

Hoax?

Or not?

 

Probably not...

 

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-delay-deny-depose-insurance-online-criticism-2d9c9a1a2a551876e72a11a93fc7624c

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-ceo-manhattan-shooting-death-dee5ad726a345a8209ecc0df7e44756e

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-delay-deny-depose-insurance-online-criticism-2d9c9a1a2a551876e72a11a93fc7624c

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-ceo-shooter-b6a0bcc8f517604bb612511acea164b9

[stevenl]

46 minutes ago, Old Curmudgeon said:

 

Hoax?

Or not?

Just Americans liking their conspiracy theories.

[mikebike]

On 12/7/2024 at 9:30 AM, Dave0206 said:

It's the crazy lefts fault people like bernie saunders telling people insurance and pharmaceutical companies are ripping them off.

So, in your opinion, the problem is telling people the truth? OK 🤷

 

EDIT. Just saw your sarcasm post. It wasn't obvious...

[mikebike]

21 hours ago, Screaming said:

Unlike the UK socialist health care system where recipients must wait over a year for primary care and end up dying of their illness.

You are, of course, aware that way more people in the USA die from lack of health care than those waiting in the UK, right?

[jerrymahoney]

From AP link #4 above:

(Chief Detective) Kenny said the fact that the shooter knew UnitedHealthcare group was holding a conference at the hotel and what route Thompson might take to get there suggested that he could possibly be a disgruntled employee or client.

-- And by 'client' that could also mean a provider like a hospital employee or doctor.

[jerrymahoney]

"Person of interest" arrested in Altoona, PA in Thompson murder.

 

Police found a three-page document with writings suggesting that Mangione had “ill will toward corporate America,” Kenny said.

 

The handwritten document “speaks to both his motivation and mindset,” Tisch said.

 

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-suspect-ceo-assassin-shooter-eaee0b7d31b319f42e0cf7f2f7badfb1

 

-- So it seems, based on the information released so far, that this was not a person aggrieved by a UnitedHealthcare specific claim denial for himself or a family member/friend, nor an employee or health industry person, but a person with a Ted Kaczynski  complex.

[jerrymahoney]

Update to the above:

 

It seems now, while the arrested person was likely not directly involved, that his family IS involved in the healthcare industry running " a family-owned assisted living/nursing home company and industry innovator" in Maryland.

 

 

[Yagoda]

This is just another example of how the Socialist enemy uses violence and agitprop in the search for domination. The trial will be a circus and they will make her out a hero, like when Vera Zasulich shot Governor Trepov.

 

The mere fact that this topic exists is a tribute to the Goebbels like manipulation of events that the Socialists are experts at. 

 

 

[jerrymahoney]

This is headline today in the NY Post which -- I have noted heretofore as a preferred media of record and Soapbox Forum topic starter -- has never been accused of aiding and abetting the socialist agenda:

 

Cops hail ‘hero’ McDonald’s customer who recognized suspected CEO killer Luigi Mangione, worker who called 911
Follow The Post’s live updates for the latest news in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, after his suspected shooter, Luigi Mangione, was arrested at a McDonald’s in Pennsylvania on Monday.

 

https://nypost.com/

 

 

 

[John Drake]

4 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

suggesting that Mangione had “ill will toward corporate America,” Kenny said.

 

Well, he'll just need to get in line behind everybody else.

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, John Drake said:

 

Well, he'll just need to get in line behind everybody else.

Well, he didn't.

[ricklev]

The American people have spoken and they elected a man and his minions with absolutely no interest in even attempting to fix the health insurance problem. 

 

The problem of course is that the only solution, the solution every other developed country has accepted, involves government power and control and that is simply unacceptable.  

[Yagoda]

9 minutes ago, ricklev said:

The American people have spoken and they elected a man and his minions with absolutely no interest in even attempting to fix the health insurance problem. 

 

The problem of course is that the only solution, the solution every other developed country has accepted, involves government power and control and that is simply unacceptable.  

No, there are other means. Like cut down the role of government. How much money is spent on all the paperwork.?

[spidermike007]

The really astonishing aspect of all this is the lack of sympathy that this guy is getting. I predicted years ago that we are going to see a form of our anarchy down the road, where average middle class law abiding citizens were going to go to extreme measures to wreak havoc and revenge on top officers of banks, insurance companies, healthcare, and big Pharma. Perhaps this is just the beginning. 

 

As many of us know many of those bankers should be in prison after the housing crisis of 2007. The judicial system would not deal with them, so perhaps the public will. 

[John Drake]

18 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

The really astonishing aspect of all this is the lack of sympathy that this guy is getting. I predicted years ago that we are going to see a form of our anarchy down the road, where average middle class law abiding citizens were going to go to extreme measures to wreak havoc and revenge on top officers of banks, insurance companies, healthcare, and big Pharma. Perhaps this is just the beginning. 

 

As many of us know many of those bankers should be in prison after the housing crisis of 2007. The judicial system would not deal with them, so perhaps the public will. 

 

And the bankers and billionaires know this as well. That's why they have built all those billionaire bunkers and taken over old abandoned missile silos in remote areas. That's why they wiped their online profiles after this incident and increased their security. They're running scared.

[metisdead]

Some troll posts have been removed.

[MicroB]

23 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

"Person of interest" arrested in Altoona, PA in Thompson murder.

 

Police found a three-page document with writings suggesting that Mangione had “ill will toward corporate America,” Kenny said.

 

The handwritten document “speaks to both his motivation and mindset,” Tisch said.

 

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-suspect-ceo-assassin-shooter-eaee0b7d31b319f42e0cf7f2f7badfb1

 

-- So it seems, based on the information released so far, that this was not a person aggrieved by a UnitedHealthcare specific claim denial for himself or a family member/friend, nor an employee or health industry person, but a person with a Ted Kaczynski  complex.

 

 

He suffered from chronic long term pain problems. This will be part of his defence, and likely it will be manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. I found the murder heinous/

 

But I have experience of pain management, and know there is no such thing as pain management. Someone who is in chronic pain is put on a pretty random cocktail of drugs, typically dihydrocodeine, diazopam and oral morphine. There is little science to it. Its a suck it see approach by the physicians. Sometimes, people will resort to largely unproven alternative therapies such as various cannabis preparations (and some people will be typing now how smoking weed helps them. Yes, it helps them, it might not help someone else), or therapies such as Yoga, which this chap was dabbling with in Hawai'i.

 

Over time, the parts of the brain, that determine how we respond to pain, undergo vascular changes. Essentially how we react to pain changes, and people can become more delusional.

 

That happened to my mother. 25 years ago, she was diagnosed and treated for cancer, putting it into  remission. But she was left immuno-compromised. She's a retired nurse who enjoyed gardening. So she used antibiotics prophylactically. That may have contributed to what happened to her next.

 

In 2017, she developed a sore back and a slight fever. After 2 weeks of trying to manage it herself (she has a high pain threshold), she finally saw a GP, a locum. The locum didn't bother to check her history, and prescribed her morphine to deal with the pack pain (when in fact  she should have checked histroy, noted the fever, and sent her  to A&E for an emergency scan and probable emergency surgery.

 

A fever is obviously a sign of the body trying to fight an infection. Morphine depresses the immune response. Within 48 hours, she was paralysed from T6 down, and without bowel control. What had happened is what's called a spinal cord infarction or stroke; essentially an interuption of the blood supply to the spinal cord, brought about by a build up of pus, likely staphylocccus, through an intestinal lesion. Emergency spinal decompression and plates were put in, followed by 12 months of alleged rehab, which was mostly taken up waiting for a colostomy operation.

 

Ever since then, she has been in constant pain. She has a high pain threshold, and likely many people, would not complain. Pain comes from the plates in her spine, spasms from her legs and pain from the colostomy. Overtime, probably from being a wheelchair user, she has developed transverse neck fractures, leading to pain and loss of mobility in her fingers/

 

For the first few years, she kept busy in the garden, from her wheelchair. She fell out of the wheelchair a few times, and had big strapping firemen pick her up. There was a certain amount of laughing it off. But in hindsight, the gardening assumeed a more manic nature. At the same time, my father was diagnosed with Alzheimers. He was a carer for her, and she cared for him. The gardening and caring for my dad were effective distractions from the pain, but the pain was increasing, as did her medication. In 2022, things went turbo. She was admitted to A&E 17 times in 9 months, through her dialling 999, and demanding something be done about her pain.  She became more bedridden, the gardening was no longer a distraction. She manipulated the carers into giving her more pain medication than she should have been having (she was maxxed on dosages for everything, and the GPs were unwilling to try alternative because, as I said, pain management does not actually exist). Then my father passed away, so that distraction went away, compounded by the subsequent depression. She was due surgery to address a long standing problem with the colostomy and a hernia, but the consultant made a major mistake of erroneously telling her there was a change in date. Her physical health further declined. Thanks to GP's acquiescence in letter her overdose of diazopam, the drug became less and less effective. Overdosing on the dihydrocodeine lead to constipation, leading to more pain. A spiral downwards. Now she was no longer fit for surgery due to weight loss. More spiralling downwards

 

This resulted in hospitalisation, where the delusions really happened. Delusions are a manifestation of the brain trying to deal with pain, to create a destraction. In her case, she was convinced the doctors were swanning around in gold, and had killed 40,000 people, and were fleeing to Nepal. And she was repeatedly raped on the ward by security. And she was helping the police to investigate corruption in the hospital, with the reward of a big screen TV. Eventually she was put in a private room, where the delusions, paranoia deepened, and assumed a more religious nature. Yeah, a pretty distressing time.

 

Sje is now in a nursing home, her bills paid for by the NHS. Originally it was part of Discharge to Assess, to deal with pressure sores she had developed. But now, the NHS feel they cannot deliver the medical care she needs (pain medication) in her home, and this can only be done in a Nursing Home. Her health has improved, but the pain is still there. The nurses are very disciplined in not giving in to her. When she is tired, the rapey delusions come back. Local CID have been amazing.

 

That's what pain can do to someone.

 

Firstly, I have utter sympathy for the family of the murdered man, Brian Thompson. Nothing justifies his murder, and people attempting to lionise Mangione are either morons, scum or both.

 

Mangione's behaviour in court seems deranged, delusional. He's going to be judged as incompetant, and this process will be over relatively quickly. He had apparently undergone surgery in an attempt to correct his spondylolisthesis, The condition is painful, the recovery from surgery (fitting plates) is very painful. Surgery is either spinal fusion or decompression. Success rates vary, but generally about 70% after 2 years. I imagine patients continue to suffer pain for years after surgery, and success is judged as to whether pain is less, rather than gone away. There are strict clinical criteria whether a patient can receive surgery, If surgery doesn't work, there appears to be no further treatment available.

 

Spinal surgery has a complex recent history in the US. Firstly, there is no equivalent to NICE in the US; a body that determines treatment pathways based on evidence-based academic rigour and economic analysis. There are fragmented Federal taskforces, but its a mess. Costs have spiralled out of control.

 

Between 1993 and 2003, the cost of spinal surgery in the US had increased 10 fold, driven by surgeons increasingly using instrumentation with dubious clinical efficacy. The media had started to issue calls to Congress to do something about these surgeons. The American Association of Neurological Surgeons was accused of changing from an Education Association to a Trade Association, existing only for the monetary benefit of its members. Over 70% of neurosurgery had become spinal surgery. Spinal fusion surgeries increased 15 times over a 5 year period. In a survey, 33% of patients being offered surgery didn't need it.

 

 

Compared to other industries, margins for health insurance is relatively modest. United makes about 7%. Car makers are making typically 10-15%, and they make cars that catch fire, crash, kill kids etc. Insurance companies generally get a bad reputation through not doing something;  not approving a course of treatment. In effect, Insurance companies are acting like NICE, but driven by economic analysis. In general, while there are emotive stories, such as little kids having to raise monet for cancer ops in the US,  NICE gets its decisions right.

 

When spinal surgeons in the US were effectively accused of profiteering from patients' misery, the Insurance companies stepped in, forcing physicans to look at more conservative treatments, such as epidurals and stenosis, before surgery, because they need to keep costs down. For some patients, I imagine that can be seen as the insurance companies stopping them getting the treatment they need, because the surgeon is giving them so many success stories. And then when you get the treatment, like Mangione, and you find out you are in the 30% it doesn't really work for, I can imagine a line of delusional thinking that starts along the lines of it wasn't effective, because it was delayed.

 

And hence his expected, eventual defence. No doubt more details will emerge.

 

Of course, the case generates a great deal of emotive discussion. Opprobrium is directed to the insurance industry, but its not them that are driving up costs. Its the insurers who have really been the driving force behind companion diagnostic tests; these are the diagnostic tests, mostly for cancer, that determine whether you can be prescribed (and reimbursed) for a particular line of expensive targeted therapy. Companion diagnostics used in clinical trials means that only the patients who will most benefit from that treatment receive it, an, importantly, those who won't. or might even be harmed by these therapies (which all tend to be cytotoxic)  don't receive them. The net result is improvements in cancer treatment, because the right people are receiving the right therapy for their illness.

 

More recently, the insurance companies have been looking at readmission rates. US hospital readmission rates are appalling. You are twice as likely to be readmitted hospital in the US than the UK. When people end up being readmitted, they often leave in a box. The insurance companies are telling hospitals if you don't improve your readmission rates, we'll cut the reimbursement rates. The result is the hospitals are investing more into community nursing; nurses visiting patients in their homes, and being able to track better their recuperation.

 

But healthcare has become politicized. It should not be. Cradle to grave is not the Welfare State, its not the State going you a favour. Its the State's obligation in honouring its social contract with the people.

 

The origin of the National Health Service lay in the Boer War, when the Army found out that 7 out of 10 volunteers were failing the basic medical exam. The nation was in poor health, and they knew there was a looming mechanised world war, and they were afraid of not having enough soldiers. Ultimately, the citizenry, through conscription, the draft, can be expect to fight and perhaps die, not in defence of their homesteads, but for the interests of their country. The least the State can do is to offer healthcare in return for your lives.

 

[jimmybcool]

On 12/7/2024 at 12:31 AM, impulse said:

 

And I should have qualified that I don't hate health insurance companies.  Just American ones.  The Euro company that covered my bypass in Bangkok 10 years ago was a treat compared to my experiences in the US health insurance market.  Most expensive hospital in Thailand and they picked up 100%.  (Of course, it was still 1/10 of what my brother was charged last year in a US hospital).  I never asked him what his insurance picked up.  Next time I see him...

 

 

It is weird.  I had a medical incident 6 years ago that racked up $300,000.  Before anyone thinks that is outrageous I was in the hospital with extensive care (part of the time in ER and on the operating table).  3 months in a private room.  Near death and lots of specialists.  I had/have Blue Shield/Blue Cross of California insurance.  There are several levels of insurance one can choose and I wisely chose to buy a higher level than basic coverage BEFORE I had this incident. 

 

My cost out of pocket was $0.

 

I have also had 2 knee replacements and a hip replacement.  Hip was in 2023.  In all cases my cost was zero.  Also of note was the care I got in all cases was excellent.  Plus the knees and hip replacements were scheduled within a few weeks of me deciding that was the only solution for me.  No waiting list and I chose who I thought would do a better job.  In my case excellent service and coverage. Of course I paid a higher premium and can afford to pay that.  So yes advantage to having accumulated some wealth. 

 

I have a relative that is broke.  She has had multiple surgeries and needs to be fed via a tube which is provided to them.  He is so weak he can barely walk.  He didn't work in America and doesn't qualify for some of the retirement benefits most Americans get.  And she isn't a US citizen.  They keep racking up bills which will never be paid but keep getting service when in need.  Ambulances arrive and hospitals help them.  Yes, on paper they have been made bankrupt for medical bills.  In reality they will die with that debt and the hospital will eat that loss as they do for all the indigents and illegals that use the ERs.  They pass those loses on to paying customers with higher costs that insurance companies pick up.  Which covers it by charging me and like me higher premiums.

 

I am reading tons of hate towards the insurance industry in this thread and claims they make huge profits.   I honestly do not know if that is true and of course my experience is better than most.  I'm not an accountant so perhaps someone savvy could provide the numbers for their  profit margins.  Keep in mind they take risks that a pandemic will make them lose money one year or like housing insurance a series of hurricanes can destroy their profits for years.  So a reasonable profit for the shareholders doesn't seem unreasonable.  Looking forward to hearing how they rank in large corporate profit levels.

 

BTW I am not a 100% apologist for insurance companies.   My wife was in a serious accident years back.  She was rear ended while stopped by a pickup truck moving at 65 miles per hour (105 KPH).  Car was destroyed and she suffered injury to her back which is still an issue.  The state I live in has a mandatory minimum insirance level which is what the person who hit her had.  Largest layout was $30,000 which they handed over since they totaled a near new Mercedes worth more. No other coverage.  Fortunately I had purchase uninsured/underinsured coverage for us.  Problem is my insurance company (same as above) tried to low ball me.  Offered like another $25K on top of the other drivers coverage.  Way low.  I contacted a lawyer and he told me they should pay at least $125K for future problems she will experience.  Told my insurance company I spoke with a lawyer and would make them pay $125K but if they pay me $110K and it's over.  Nope.  They play this game because too many people need the money NOW (I didn't) and will accept the low ball.  End of the day I had to pay the lawyer to get the $125K.  But of course it cost me a chunk of that to the lawyer.  I lost and insurance company lost but they play the odds we will give up and take the low ball. 

 

 

 

[jerrymahoney]

Whatever the personal medical/insurance anecdotes, it does not seem that the accused had any lingering problems with his chronic back pain/ surgery as he was able to flee the crime scene partly through Central Park on a bicycle to the GW Bridge bus station in little more than an hour.

 

[Yagoda]

41 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Whatever the personal medical/insurance anecdotes, it does not seem that the accused had any lingering problems with his chronic back pain/ surgery as he was able to flee the crime scene partly through Central Park on a bicycle to the GW Bridge bus station in little more than an hour.

 

I have severe back problems and wish I could ride a bike.

 

But, as the girls at Thermae will tell you, the back problem is just another obstacle to be conquered

[impulse]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Whatever the personal medical/insurance anecdotes, it does not seem that the accused had any lingering problems with his chronic back pain/ surgery as he was able to flee the crime scene partly through Central Park on a bicycle to the GW Bridge bus station in little more than an hour.

 

 

You'd be amazed at what kind of pain you can push through when you're fleeing for your life.

 

This is credited to his X account:

 

 

[lordgrinz]

Murder by one of the Privileged Elite, and people are celebrating his actions? Sick.

[jerrymahoney]

59 minutes ago, impulse said:

You'd be amazed at what kind of pain you can push through when you're fleeing for your life.

Thank you. Not sufficiently amazed.

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

Murder by one of the Privileged Elite, and people are celebrating his actions? Sick.

Mangione said that 'it had to be done' so that settles that.

 

Mangione's writings, obtained by ABC News, addressed to the "Feds," said, "I do apologize for any strife of traumas but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming."

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/luigi-mangione-charged-murder/story?id=116623608

[impulse]

FWIW, here's (allegedly) the whole manifesto, from which the MSM is cherry picking snippets:

 

https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto

 

 

 

 

[jerrymahoney]

Maybe in not publishing the entire 292 word manifesto the MSM is trying to protect those named liberal icons Apple, Google, (&) Walmart.

[MRMOUSE]

On 12/6/2024 at 12:33 PM, Yagoda said:

Fox News is free.

No wonder