Foreign Pilot Approval Raises Concerns for Thai Aviation

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, daveAustin said:

6 hours ago, webfact said:

This shift could weaken Thailand's standing and competitiveness in the global aviation marketplace.

 

 

Alright for your Thai pilots to fly in foreign countries though, eh Mr Teerawat!

And foreign pilots are permitted to fly into Thailand. aren't they, Mr Austin?

[thaiowl]

1 hour ago, Tropicalevo said:

 

Assume makes and ASS out of U and ME.

Not a Thai bash - a concern over too many graduates getting into the system in a shortish time.

I would say the same about any country doing this.

Yes, I understand how newby's get experience, but there is still a risk if lots are in the spare seat at once.

Quoting 1,200 available graduates is a distraction to the fact that experienced pilots are needed now.

 

3 hours ago, Moonlover said:

A newly qualified pilot will typically spend 1 to 2 years a second officer before advancing to the left hand seat.

 

Your worries are unfounded, in fact I would call just yet another Thai bash.

Not true. My son has been a First Officer with a Thai airline for eight years and is now trying to upgrade to Captain.

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, ravip said:

What's dangerous is the genuineness of the Pilots licence.

Yes! Apparently there are some 'fake' pilots around!

What evidence do you have of there being fake pilots in Thailand?

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, watchcat said:

4 hours ago, Tropicalevo said:

in a newby.

What could possibly go wrong.

 It could mean a crash. Just because they have a DL, does not mean they have the experience. Just watch the traffic on the roads,

Could it?  Really?   You think that Thai airline pilots have the same required training as drivers here?   Have there ever been any reports of investigations determining that air crashes were caused by "new" pilots?

[Enoon]

3 hours ago, bdenner said:

More like 10 years or more within major western airline (jet aircraft).

 

 "Initial flight training, or the time to become an instructor, takes a year or two. After that, building the airline-required 1,000-1,500 flight hours (depending on the selected pathway) generally takes 2–5 years more to achieve, depending on whether the pilot works as a CFI, crop duster, aerial photographer, banner tower, etc

 

Once at the airlines, upgrading to captain has black-and-white regulations regarding hours and experience. Namely, US airline captains must have flown 1,000 hours as second in command (SIC) at the airline level and be at least 23 years old"

https://simpleflying.com/new-pilot-captain-progression-timeline/

 

10 years sounds good to you so that's what you said.

 

Just another blustering, AN know-nothing, plucking "truth" out of their own tiny "airspace".

 

 

 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Tropicalevo said:

3 hours ago, Moonlover said:

 

Your worries are unfounded, in fact I would call just yet another Thai bash.

 

Assume makes and ASS out of U and ME.

Not a Thai bash - a concern over too many graduates getting into the system in a shortish time.

Don't think he was assuming anything, he was commenting based on what you posted that read as a Thai-bash and he certainly didn't make an ass of himself.

 

"...a concern over too many graduates getting into the system in a shortish time".

Whose concern and who said that there are "too many qualified pilots getting into the system in a shortish time"?

[bamnutsak]

4 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

They are talking about Bangkok Airways.

 

They have wet-leased two Amelia Airways A320s which will be flown and crewed by some foreigners as they do not have enough planes to service all their routes.

 

Amelia will operate Bangkok Airways routes from 1st December to 29th March 2025.

 

https://www.bangkokair.com/press-release/view/bangkok-airways-leases-aircraft-to-meet-increased-demand

 

A319 and A320. International routes (LPQ, PNH, SAI).

 

I think Amelia - a weird name for an airline given Earhart got famously lost - is a subsidiary of Air France.

 

A friend flew BKK-LPQ-BKK; PG 941/942 this week, she mentioned the flight deck and cabin staff were French, although I think PG is supposed to have one or two staff on board.

 

 

While Amelia will provide pilots and cabin crew, Bangkok Airways flight attendants will also be on board to ensure a seamless passenger experience. Passengers can expect the same high-quality in-flight service, including food, beverages, and baggage allowances, that they've come to know from Bangkok Airways.

 

[MadAtMatrix]

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

You are 100% right.  I saw a documentary about a Korean Air B747 crash in Guam many years ago.  The much younger FO stayed quiet whie the senior Captain was flying the insturment approach on a rainy night.  In the end the Captain screwed up and crashed attempting the approach. 

This article is what we are both talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety

[RichardColeman]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

A contentious decision by the Thai government to temporarily allow foreign pilots to fly domestic routes is sparking debate within the country's aviation sector.

Anyone care to explain the difference between that and thias going fruit picking abroad ? 

[scottiejohn]

3 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Anyone care to explain the difference between that and thias going fruit picking abroad ? 

The Thais going fruit picking are probably not pilots!

[scorecard]

7 hours ago, ravip said:

Newbies too need to start somewhere, isn't it?

All airlines have a method of integrating newbies into the system.

 

What's dangerous is the genuineness of the Pilots licence.

Yes! Apparently there are some 'fake' pilots around!

 

It happens in many industries.

 

My Thai son went to first day of lessons (hotel pool on Ploenchit Road) to learn basic diving (for an upcoming 3 day holiday in Bali and he wanted to spend 2 hrs diving - never done a dive before - never heard of being qualified to an international standard etc etc.).

 

Second morning three 'scouts' from other diving schools approached my son and the other 2 students and offered them money start teaching diving the next day.

 

Son and the other 2 shocked at the ofer and also because the teacher from the first day had disappeared. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ravip]

5 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What evidence do you have of there being fake pilots in Thailand?

I did NOT say there are fake pilots in Thailand. But they exist in this world. 

There are instances where the FAA has mentioned about it .

 

Add

Subject was foreign pilots FYI 

[john donson]

thailand should get their head out of their ass... when will they enter 20th century (yes we are 21st)...

[ravip]

6 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Could it?  Really?   You think that Thai airline pilots have the same required training as drivers here?   Have there ever been any reports of investigations determining that air crashes were caused by "new" pilots?

Are you comparing driving licences with pilots licences? 

REALLY? 

[ravip]

6 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What evidence do you have of there being fake pilots in Thailand?

Deleted. Sorry,  error 

[ravip]

1 hour ago, ravip said:

I did NOT say there are fake pilots in Thailand. But they exist in this world. 

There are instances where the FAA has mentioned about it .

 

Add

Subject was foreign pilots FYI 

Just listen for 1 minute from 53:35

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

47 minutes ago, ravip said:

6 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Could it?  Really?   You think that Thai airline pilots have the same required training as drivers here?   Have there ever been any reports of investigations determining that air crashes were caused by "new" pilots?

Are you comparing driving licences with pilots licences? 

REALLY? 

Can't you read?  Really?   My comment was a response to watchcat's comment who made that fatuous comparison.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, ravip said:

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What evidence do you have of there being fake pilots in Thailand?

I did NOT say there are fake pilots in Thailand. But they exist in this world. 

There are instances where the FAA has mentioned about it .

 

Add

Subject was foreign pilots FYI 

On a thread about pilots in Thailand you made no reference to your comment not being a suggestion about fake pilots here.

[ravip]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

On a thread about pilots in Thailand you made no reference to your comment not being a suggestion about fake pilots here.

Okay you are right. Relax. Face saved. 

[ravip]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Can't you read?  Really?   My comment was a response to watchcat's comment who made that fatuous comparison.

Yes. My literacy rate is very much lower than yours. 

You are brilliant. Relax. Face saved. 

[ravip]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

On a thread about pilots in Thailand you made no reference to your comment not being a suggestion about fake pilots here.

Really? 

[ravip]

10 hours ago, watchcat said:

 

About foreigners in general.... excptions  are the Chinese

This is true regarding many nationalities, reading through AN. 

[daveAustin]

8 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

And foreign pilots are permitted to fly into Thailand. aren't they, Mr Austin?

‘In’ foreign countries. Stroll on. It’s like pulling teeth!

[daveAustin]

32 minutes ago, ravip said:

Yes. My literacy rate is very much lower than yours. 

You are brilliant. Relax. Face saved. 

Don’t let these types wind you up. I would quote the oft used phrase—don’t feed the troll—but it would likely be deleted. Folks that repeatedly shove their point across in the same thread don’t usually have the best intentions. This beaut right here should be in most ‘ignore’ lists. 

[ukrules]

Perhaps it would be best all around if they used Thai made airliners as well as pilots.

 

[Patong2021]

12 hours ago, newbee2022 said:

I can't remember seen any Thai pilot in international aviation Business.

And that is why? Guess😂

 

Because you are  making a nonsensical reference? Can you recall any German  physicians being mentioned in the Topeka Flower Festival Journal? Consider the relevance.

 

12 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Is the concern wet lease of protecting jobs for Thai pilots?  In many parts of Asia it is not uncommon for a foriegn pilot to be in the flight deck.  Next time anyone flies Cathay Pacific there is good chance the FO or Captaion is foreiign.  I believe even Korean Air has a small number of foreign pilots.  In due time Thailand based airlines will have 100% Thai aircrew.  

Until then it is not a big deal. 

 

 

OK, but that has nothing to do with the use of wet leases.  When an airline is entering into a wet lease, it is replacing or supplementing operational capacity. It's no different than hiring a mover. The mover brings the necessary equipment and employees to get the job done for the short term job. When the job is done, they go home. In a scenario involving the hiring of  pilots, the airline  has to keep them or to furlough them and that is an expensive undertaking.

 

 

11 hours ago, HappyExpat57 said:

I have a friend who has worked in the airline industry as a flight attendant over 20 years. The entire industry is swirling down the toilet worldwide. It started with busting the unions so pay and benefits across the board have been cut drastically including pilots. Entry level pilots are getting less than half what they used to so folks aren't as interested in such a career any more, resulting in pilot shortages everywhere.

 

Your point may be partially true, but that is not why there are pilot shortages. As you may recall, we  recently went through Covid. As a result, many of the largest airlines either suspended operations or cut back capacity to the bare minimum. Air travel did not recover immediately after the pandemic eased. That's almost 3 years of reduced demand, in some regions  a 75% reduction in passenger air travel. The net result was that;

- There were large scale pilot layoffs and furloughs.

- Training programs were suspended, experience hours unavailable

- Some of the most senior pilots took the opportunity to take early retirement, while other older pilots exercised their seniority rights to continue flying.

- Scheduled maintenance and upgrades  were delayed or postponed

- As travel demand recovered, pilots were called back, but needed time to recertify and to take the necessary refresher hours in the  flight simulators. This took time.

- The older pilots who  stayed, are now leaving or getting ready to leave the workforce. Unlike pre-covid times, there isn't a large pool of pilots  ready to replace them.

- On top of everything is a worldwide surge in travel demand.

 

It will take 3-5 years to address the  pilot shortage, and then we will be back to a surplus of qualified people and the cycle will then repeat itself.

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Anyone care to explain the difference between that and thias going fruit picking abroad ? 

 

[Hawaiian]

18 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

This is an insignificant issue that is being blown out of proportion. One would have to be clueless twit to not be aware of the worldwide backlog of aircraft deliveries. As of October 2024,  Airbus reported a backlog of 8,769 jets, of which 7,832, or 89 percent, were A220 and A320 family narrowbodies. Boeing’s backlog was 6,246 aircraft, of which 4,770, or 77 percent, were 737 family narrowbody jets.

Aircraft also have to be removed from service to allow for scheduled "deep"maintenance that includes extensive verification of engines and  air frame.  Almost all of the airlines now  rely on wet leases to fill surge capacity demands and to replace  aircraft that are temporarily out of service.  It makes no sense to hire pilots for the short periods that the capacity is required. 

 

A wet lease is a cost effective solution for a short time need. The lessee has access to an aircraft that can be treated as an expense, and does not have to assume the long term expenses and HR issues that attach to  hiring, training, and managing the crew. 

Good business practice, something the man fails to recognize.

[Hawaiian]

16 hours ago, MadAtMatrix said:

Foreign pilots are preferred in Asian countries as they practice Crew Resource Management where they treat their co pilot as an equal and want them to intervene if they are doing something unsafe. 
 

asian customs are “don’t question someone with more seniority than you” and keep your mouth shut all the way to the scene of the crash. 

How true.  Saving face does not equate to saving (protecting) lives.

[newbee2022]

5 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

Because you are  making a nonsensical reference? Can you recall any German  physicians being mentioned in the Topeka Flower Festival Journal? Consider the relevance.

 

 

OK, but that has nothing to do with the use of wet leases.  When an airline is entering into a wet lease, it is replacing or supplementing operational capacity. It's no different than hiring a mover. The mover brings the necessary equipment and employees to get the job done for the short term job. When the job is done, they go home. In a scenario involving the hiring of  pilots, the airline  has to keep them or to furlough them and that is an expensive undertaking.

 

 

 

Your point may be partially true, but that is not why there are pilot shortages. As you may recall, we  recently went through Covid. As a result, many of the largest airlines either suspended operations or cut back capacity to the bare minimum. Air travel did not recover immediately after the pandemic eased. That's almost 3 years of reduced demand, in some regions  a 75% reduction in passenger air travel. The net result was that;

- There were large scale pilot layoffs and furloughs.

- Training programs were suspended, experience hours unavailable

- Some of the most senior pilots took the opportunity to take early retirement, while other older pilots exercised their seniority rights to continue flying.

- Scheduled maintenance and upgrades  were delayed or postponed

- As travel demand recovered, pilots were called back, but needed time to recertify and to take the necessary refresher hours in the  flight simulators. This took time.

- The older pilots who  stayed, are now leaving or getting ready to leave the workforce. Unlike pre-covid times, there isn't a large pool of pilots  ready to replace them.

- On top of everything is a worldwide surge in travel demand.

 

It will take 3-5 years to address the  pilot shortage, and then we will be back to a surplus of qualified people and the cycle will then repeat itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the lot of common sense. 🥱🥱🥱

[bdenner]

17 hours ago, Enoon said:

<Snip>

 

10 years sounds good to you so that's what you said.

 

Just another blustering, AN know-nothing, plucking "truth" out of their own tiny "airspace".

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I read that but I also came across this:-  here is a quote from a major US Flight School.

 

Quote

Again, once you move over to a major airline, you’re starting again as a First Officer and again, pilot seniority plays a huge role. Some first officers have waited decades to become a captain while others can upgrade in just a few years, but we’ll set an average range of 5-12 years from first officer to captain at a major airline. That means from 0 experience all the way to major airline captain, one can expect a timeline of 15+ years.

 

https://www.flyaeroguard.com/learn/how-to-become-a-pilot/how-long-does-it-take-to-become-a-pilot/