Thai lawyer argues most expats won’t be impacted by personal income tax

[CharlieH]

Post with inappropriate content in violation of community guidelines has been removed.

[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, sandyf said:

A distortion of what I said, thought it was quite clear I was referring to new accounts with onshore UK banks requiring confirmation of UK tax residency, rather than a number.

That would not in keeping with post I replied to had implied. I have seen no evidence to indicate UK banks require a TIN to open a standard account, normally photo ID and utility bill.  As far as I am aware confirmation of tax residency is only required for certain types of account.

 

I am only pointing out that the requirement to provide more specific information is a trend, so a bit of context here. The offshore account I referred to was opened over 30 years ago and no questions were asked about tax residency and no need for proof of address.

 

About eight years ago, the same bank's "KYC" procedures required that one confirm one's domicile with proof of that address. These were to comply with international banking regulations, primarily the US-mandated ones.

 

In the past year, the same bank has required not only reconfirmation of the address and proof thereof, but also the tax ID if one is claiming non-UK domicile.

 

I had no intention of distorting anything that you have posted with regard to opening an onshore "high street" UK bank account.

 

But please note that when I last opened a regular, domestic bank account in England in 2018, they didn't ask me to declare or confirm UK tax residency. However, this does appear to be the case if opening an account now.

 

With a lot of people working in non-traditional environments with non-traditional revenue streams, either online or remotely, and increasing oversight by revenue departments, I feel that need to provide more specific information along with your signature of agreement, will be inevitable, regardless of the bank being high street, offshore or online.

[NanLaew]

On 12/9/2024 at 1:43 AM, ukrules said:

 

Indeed, a lot of people seem to think you can just pick and choose your residency back in your home country - as you found to your detriment, you can't.

 

 

I have a Norwegian friend who is convinced that he can pick and chose which domicile he claims to reside in based on whichever one gives him the biggest break on income tax. I may not be familiar with Norwegian tax legislation but I doubt his claims.

[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, sandyf said:

Statements like that are distorting the thread. I would think that "most" expats as referred to in the OP do not have trading accounts or partaking in any active business.

Those engaged in activities that have always necessitated the need for a tax return should refrain from muddying the waters.

 

The fundamental premise here is, if an individual is alive and breathing anywhere on this planet and has any sort of income, that individual needs to be, at the very least, fully aware of their personal income tax liabilities. This is regardless of the type of bank account they hold, where it is or where they claim to reside.

 

Thailand has applied to join the OECD and as such, needs to enforce their own tax laws first, including the one's that apply to non-citizen residents of the country.

[sandyf]

On 12/9/2024 at 9:58 AM, oldcpu said:

Hence these discussions are very relevant - albeit one MUST not jump to conclusions, but rather carefully think through what is needed given one's own situation.

So in your opinion the point made by the OP can be distorted if one chooses to do  so.

[sandyf]

On 12/9/2024 at 9:58 AM, JohnnyBD said:

 

Sorry Mr. Sandyf.

I don't know how Mr. Hamus' post ended up attached to your name when I replied. My apologies.

Thanks, but no real problem. I know it is easily done but don't know why.

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

However, this does appear to be the case if opening an account now.

I don't think that is entirely true.  I have been with Midland/HSBC over 30 years, issue only arose when I asked for a particular type  of account and they knew I was in Thailand.

Bit the same with Wise other than not being with them very long, only came  up when I opened a particular type of account.

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

The fundamental premise here is, if an individual is alive and breathing anywhere on this planet and has any sort of income, that individual needs to be, at the very least, fully aware of their personal income tax liabilities. This is regardless of the type of bank account they hold, where it is or where they claim to reside.

 

Thailand has applied to join the OECD and as such, needs to enforce their own tax laws first, including the one's that apply to non-citizen residents of the country.

Not the point - Thread title is taken from the OP

"Bemjamin Hart, naturalized Thai citizen and managing director of Integrity Legal, claims in a new video that typical expats will not be impacted by the Thai Revenue Department’s recent announcements."

 

For some reason many on this thread want to redefine "typical expat" in their own image.

Bottom line is he right or not in respect of "typical expats", which would exclude anyone trading or engaged in any other financial activity. What non- typical expats are required to do doesn't come into it.

 

Of course people are free to believe that he was in fact referring to those with some form of financial activity to be "typical".

 

 

[oldcpu]

52 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So in your opinion the point made by the OP can be distorted if one chooses to do  so.

 

No need to distort anything.

[NanLaew]

Enough with who is "distorting" or "redefining" what here. The guy in the OP is using the term "typical" to define those who may need to pay income tax. That's a term that doesn't exist when it comes to talking about personal income tax liability, here or anywhere.

 

It doesn't matter if he's a naturalised anything or able to practice law here, it's just more white noise.

 

Now click and subscribe...

[chiang mai]

I think the video in the op overlooks or ignores several aspects of what has happened. It ignore the inevitability that as we get closer to tax filing season, the greater will be the number of people asking questions about what they are supposed to do now, even I have been asking myself that same question and I've been involved in the discussions for months. That curiosity is not the result of the debates that have taken place nor the videos. The changes made via Por 161/162 were announced far and wide over a year ago and most people will have flagged that. Everyone is now quite rightly asking, so what do we do now.

 

The other point that has been ignored is the extent to which older less wealthy expats have been helped and their minds put at rest as a result of these threads and some of the media coverage. I've received a large number of messages from pensioners in Thailand, asking how much tax they will have to pay on income that I would guess is below average for the western expat community. Older people worry more, many of those people are on the last leg of their journey and don't have any other options for a home or for income. Leaving those people to stew and fret for a year is cruel and unnecessary, at least one spoke of self harm because of the stress and uncertainty. Being able to reassure those people and put their minds at rest, has been the main benefit of these threads, as far as I am concerned.

 

As for the detractors and critics: the threads have seen a small number of vocal naysayers who have trolled the threads and their participants. Some are an inevitable function of social networking sites, others are anti-tax and many are anti Thai. Some have above average wealth and frustrated at the lack of clear answers and some are just plain anti-social and have too much spare time on their hands. A very small number are looking for perfection in the answers and will challenge any other comments that don't achieve that. Most if not all of the critics are the ones who have something to lose and don't want to be pulled into the tax net, not because they think it's unfair, but because they will have to pay up!

 

The last part of all this is the extent to which the past year has finally brought Thai tax into focus for many expats, people who previously thought that tax was something they didn't have to be concerned with, in Thailand, ever! That increased awareness is a step change and has come as a shock for many. I don't know about others but I don't see that as an entirely bad thing.

[chiang mai]

Standard YT response....boring.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I think the video in the op overlooks or ignores several aspects of what has happened. It ignore the inevitability that as we get closer to tax filing season, the greater will be the number of people asking questions about what they are supposed to do now, even I have been asking myself that same question and I've been involved in the discussions for months. That curiosity is not the result of the debates that have taken place nor the videos. The changes made via Por 161/162 were announced far and wide over a year ago and most people will have flagged that. Everyone is now quite rightly asking, so what do we do now.

 

The other point that has been ignored is the extent to which older less wealthy expats have been helped and their minds put at rest as a result of these threads and some of the media coverage. I've received a large number of messages from pensioners in Thailand, asking how much tax they will have to pay on income that I would guess is below average for the western expat community. Older people worry more, many of those people are on the last leg of their journey and don't have any other options for a home or for income. Leaving those people to stew and fret for a year is cruel and unnecessary, at least one spoke of self harm because of the stress and uncertainty. Being able to reassure those people and put their minds at rest, has been the main benefit of these threads, as far as I am concerned.

 

As for the detractors and critics: the threads have seen a small number of vocal naysayers who have trolled the threads and their participants. Some are an inevitable function of social networking sites, others are anti-tax and many are anti Thai. Some have above average wealth and frustrated at the lack of clear answers and some are just plain anti-social and have too much spare time on their hands. A very small number are looking for perfection in the answers and will challenge any other comments that don't achieve that. Most if not all of the critics are the ones who have something to lose and don't want to be pulled into the tax net, not because they think it's unfair, but because they will have to pay up!

 

The last part of all this is the extent to which the past year has finally brought Thai tax into focus for many expats, people who previously thought that tax was something they didn't have to be concerned with, in Thailand, ever! That increased awareness is a step change and has come as a shock for many. I don't know about others but I don't see that as an entirely bad thing.

 

A very well argued and presented opinion.

 

Thanks.

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I think the video in the op overlooks or ignores several aspects of what has happened. It ignore the inevitability that as we get closer to tax filing season, the greater will be the number of people asking questions about what they are supposed to do now, even I have been asking myself that same question and I've been involved in the discussions for months. That curiosity is not the result of the debates that have taken place nor the videos. The changes made via Por 161/162 were announced far and wide over a year ago and most people will have flagged that. Everyone is now quite rightly asking, so what do we do now.

 

The other point that has been ignored is the extent to which older less wealthy expats have been helped and their minds put at rest as a result of these threads and some of the media coverage. I've received a large number of messages from pensioners in Thailand, asking how much tax they will have to pay on income that I would guess is below average for the western expat community. Older people worry more, many of those people are on the last leg of their journey and don't have any other options for a home or for income. Leaving those people to stew and fret for a year is cruel and unnecessary, at least one spoke of self harm because of the stress and uncertainty. Being able to reassure those people and put their minds at rest, has been the main benefit of these threads, as far as I am concerned.

 

As for the detractors and critics: the threads have seen a small number of vocal naysayers who have trolled the threads and their participants. Some are an inevitable function of social networking sites, others are anti-tax and many are anti Thai. Some have above average wealth and frustrated at the lack of clear answers and some are just plain anti-social and have too much spare time on their hands. A very small number are looking for perfection in the answers and will challenge any other comments that don't achieve that. Most if not all of the critics are the ones who have something to lose and don't want to be pulled into the tax net, not because they think it's unfair, but because they will have to pay up!

 

The last part of all this is the extent to which the past year has finally brought Thai tax into focus for many expats, people who previously thought that tax was something they didn't have to be concerned with, in Thailand, ever! That increased awareness is a step change and has come as a shock for many. I don't know about others but I don't see that as an entirely bad thing.

 

I'll second this

 

13 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

A very well argued and presented opinion.

 

Thanks.

 

But will also add.

 

The initial thread on this forum contributed to the chaos and confusion.

 

I wont comment on whether that was by design, incompetence, or deliberate.

 

It caused confusion and chaos by

 

1. Trying to adopt a 1 size fits all methodology.

 

2. An almost cult like devotion to the Thai Revenue Code, which does not apply to all expats.

 

3. Someone unable to distinguish between a DTA and the Revenue Code, and what takes precedent.

 

All of the above, highlighted various times, before I took a 6 months sabbatical.

[chiang mai]

47 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'll second this

 

 

But will also add.

 

The initial thread on this forum contributed to the chaos and confusion.

 

I wont comment on whether that was by design, incompetence, or deliberate.

 

It caused confusion and chaos by

 

1. Trying to adopt a 1 size fits all methodology.

 

2. An almost cult like devotion to the Thai Revenue Code, which does not apply to all expats.

 

3. Someone unable to distinguish between a DTA and the Revenue Code, and what takes precedent.

 

All of the above, highlighted various times, before I took a 6 months sabbatical.

I'm not sure how true that is, from what I've read of the earlier threads/posts there was an attempt to structure the arguments and issues but that process seems to have ended prematurely. I'm not suggesting that what you wrote is not true, only that I didn't see evidence of that.  I've gone back to Listers tax guide several times as a point of reference and I didn't see where DTA's were given second place but I haven't read through all the early thread. What I did see and what I continue to see is some members posting against individuals rather than posting against the arguments or views they present. I have two or three posters who regularly don't comment but who simply put laughing emoji's on everything I post, that's a perfect example of the mindset involved in some of these threads. Water and ducks backs and all that.

[The Cyclist]

25 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm not sure how true that is, from what I've read of the earlier threads/posts there was an attempt to structure the arguments and issues but that process seems to have ended prematurely. I'm not suggesting that what you wrote is not true, only that I didn't see evidence of that.  I've gone back to Listers tax guide several times as a point of reference and I didn't see where DTA's were given second place but I haven't read through all the early thread.

 

That is what happens when someone edits and deletes posts, because some called him out.

 

Why do you think I took a 6 month sabatical ? Only to come back and find that the poster / moderator by the name of Lister has disappeared.

 

DTA's should have been the go to Bible for everyone right from the get go. The Revenue Code  then applies to those that remit assessable income over the threasholds laid down by the Revenue Code.

 

The one size fits all is still being trotted out. See the video by Mr Hart lambasting the other bonehead that said " All Expats need to get TIN's "

 

30 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

What I did see and what I continue to see is some members posting against individuals rather than posting against the arguments or views they present.

 

Because that is all they have.

 

31 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I have two or three posters who regularly don't comment but who simply put laughing emoji's on everything I post, that's a perfect example of the mindset involved in some of these threads

 

Ditto, like I really care about those idiots.  I'm sitting here, knowing that I will be filing nothing,  owe the Thai taxman nothing, and they can come and audit me anytime they like.

 

And if I can point someone else in the correct direction, it will have been worth it.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

That is what happens when someone edits and deletes posts, because some called him out.

 

Why do you think I took a 6 month sabatical ? Only to come back and find that the poster / moderator by the name of Lister has disappeared.

 

DTA's should have been the go to Bible for everyone right from the get go. The Revenue Code  then applies to those that remit assessable income over the threasholds laid down by the Revenue Code.

 

The one size fits all is still being trotted out. See the video by Mr Hart lambasting the other bonehead that said " All Expats need to get TIN's "

 

 

Because that is all they have.

 

 

Ditto, like I really care about those idiots.  I'm sitting here, knowing that I will be filing nothing,  owe the Thai taxman nothing, and they can come and audit me anytime they like.

 

And if I can point someone else in the correct direction, it will have been worth it.

I read the part about DTA's taking precedent over national tax law but I thought it was discovered quite late in the day. I must go back and see if I can't figure out the sequence of events.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

I read the part about DTA's taking precedent over national tax law but I thought it was discovered quite late in the day. I must go back and see if I can't figure out the sequence of events.

 

You wont find it, too many posts were deleted as DTA were deemed off topic as it contradicted the Revenue Code mantra.

 

However you might find my big 4 window cleaner quip. Which was in reference to someone not knowing that an International Agreement ( DTA ) takes precedence over Thai domestic Tax Policy / Law.

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You wont find it, too many posts were deleted as DTA were deemed off topic as it contradicted the Revenue Code mantra.

 

However you might find my big 4 window cleaner quip. Which was in reference to someone not knowing that an International Agreement ( DTA ) takes precedence over Thai domestic Tax Policy / Law.

I read where CRS was off topic, I have some sympathy with idea that DTAs could also be, given there are 61 of them, all different. Anyway, water under bridge and ove got a garden to plant.

[XB12X]

I'd rather take advice from Benjamin Hart that any 'expert' on here.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, XB12X said:

I'd rather take advice from Benjamin Hart that any 'expert' on here.

I don't know that anyone disagrees with him, I think it's more about the wider picture. Certainly, everyone should take professional advice, if they don't know the answers. And certainly, there are charlatans out there.

[redwood1]

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

A very well argued and presented opinion.

 

Thanks.

 

I will give you a very well argued and thought out opinion..

 

The lawyer in this article says expats will not have to pay jack...So guys no need to pay jack....

 

I doubt you have ever heard any thing more well thought out than this...

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

I will give you a very well argued and thought out opinion..

 

The lawyer in this article says expats will not have to pay jack...So guys no need to pay jack....

 

I doubt you have ever heard any thing more well thought out than this...

I don't think that's what he said, is it!

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't know that anyone disagrees with him, I think it's more about the wider picture. Certainly, everyone should take professional advice, if they don't know the answers. And certainly, there are charlatans out there.

 

Hart is basically saying that giving blanket advice to all is both impossible and unethical.

I completely agree because the actual reality is that each expat has their own situation.

Hart is also saying that he thinks the vast majority of retired expats will not owe any tax and/or need a TIN/need to file.

I don't know how he could possibly know that and therefore I don't think he should even say that.

In my own case I found that I will not be in that predicted vast majority. 

There is no shortcut.

To know if this will effect you SPECIFICALLY then you need to put on your big boy pants and flippin' find out.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

Hart is basically saying that giving blanket advice to all is both impossible and unethical.

I completely agree because the actual reality is that each expat has their own situation.

Hart is also saying that he thinks the vast majority of retired expats will not owe any tax and/or need a TIN/need to file.

I don't know how he could possibly know that and therefore I don't think he should even say that.

In my own case I found that I will not be in that predicted vast majority. 

There is no shortcut.

To know if this will effect you SPECIFICALLY then you need to put on your big boy pants and flippin' find out.

Yes,agreed, I think that's always been the purpose of these threads is to motivate people to do just that......many have.

[Scouse123]

Guys,

 

I watched and listened to both videos, including the lengthy one from Siam Legal's tax expert.

 

The tax expert is saying as foreigners we can contest the new interpretation of the tax rules, not law, because it isn't law, by the revenue department. This is freely admitted by Siam Legal.

 

We can only contest and sue in the court after we have received a tax bill., or an assessable tax bill, based on what we declare or are assessed on.

 

We cannot pre-empt a lawsuit based on something that hasn't happened.

 

I definitely think it is a sit on the fence approach and see what happens and not go racing for tax IDs and TIN numbers based on wannabe Thai tax experts on ASEAN Now, who constantly ram only their opinions down our throats.

 

A quickie for you all.

 

I went to the office of disabilities and spent five hours arguing my case, I am not joking, five hours!, regarding my disabled tax allowance.

 

I spoke to no less than six different disability officers, each one with a completely different opinion to the one previous.

 

That did not include those officers passing by and stopping that felt obliged to stick their sixpence worth in even though it was nothing to do with them.

 

So, you see, you will probably get a similar response from many tax offices as many don't seem to know what is going on yet.

 

 

[black tabby12345]

Thai lawyer argues most expats won’t be impacted by personal income tax - Pattaya Mail

 

Mr Hart stresses that Thai financial laws have not changed...

The video attacks foreigners, claiming to be tax experts, who give advice when they are not qualified to do so. 

----------------------------------------------------------

That's what I have noticed months ago.

No affirmative announcement from any sources.

Still, some accounting firms invite expats to come in for consultancy(for Useless Advice).

 

[black tabby12345]

1 hour ago, XB12X said:

I'd rather take advice from Benjamin Hart that any 'expert' on here.

 

His words are the most accurate and conscientious Expert Advice since tax chief's bark in May this year.

Unlike those  from some accounting  firms whose only thought is to rip off foreigners taking advantage of their anxiety.

[jesimps]

On 12/8/2024 at 7:23 AM, henryford1958 said:

Despite all the posts i still don't know as a retired expat living off a pre taxed UK pension, do i submit a tax return next year or not. I already had a TIN.

I assume that you're an ex civil servant. According to the DTA with the UK, you're exempt from paying tax in Thailand and therefore don't need to file a return. That's how I read it.

[Scouse123]

3 minutes ago, black tabby12345 said:

 

His words are the most accurate and conscientious Expert Advice since tax chief's bark in May this year.

Unlike those  from some account firms whose only thought is to rip of foreigners taking advantage of their anxiety.

 

Yes,

 

That seems to be the case in many situations and these firms feeding on worry to drum up business.