Breaker box look correct?

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

That still makes no sense... is the left bar neutral? So the breaker attaches to a rail and one rail to one or 2 screws on the left? Different box though. mine can be a different setup.. 

 

It is 100% correct and almost identical to your box. But note, it is wired as TNC-S (MEN) you would be TNS so the incoming neutral would NOT go via the ground bar, just directly to the bottom of the main breaker.

 

The incoming supply goes to the bottom of the big breaker.

The live from that breaker goes to the live bus bar that the MCB clip on to. 

The neutral from the main breaker is connected internally to the neutral bus bar to the left. You can actually see the internal connection going to the right in the middle of the neutral bar.

 

[SailingHome]

14 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Are these two bus bars not then connected together, so it matters not which ones the wires go into?

Exactly... and so they are the same you had before ground wires were added what? All neutral bonded to ground - dangerous. Adding ground wires you provide a leakage path back but not enough. An aircon that does that...

 

Improperly connecting the ground wire to the neutral can lead to serious hazards. According to the Engineering Institute of Thailand's (EIT) electrical installation standards, "The grounding of the electrical system (the bonding of the neutral to the ground) must be on the supply side of the first circuit breaker in the main switchboard within the same building. "


 

[NanLaew]

5 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

That still makes no sense... is the left bar neutral? So the breaker attaches to a rail and one rail to one or 2 screws on the left? Different box though. mine can be a differnt setup.. 

 

The left bar is ALWAYS neutral...it's connected by busbar to the N (left side) of the main breaker/RCBO. All neutral (white) wires connect to that left bar. The L and N of the breaker/RCBO are clearly marked on the breaker/RCBO and the L (right side) feeds the live busbar that the four circuit breakers are connected to. All live wires are black.

 

The top bar is the Ground bar as it is bonded to the CU case. The incoming N is bonded to the ground bar FIRST and then on to the N on the breaker/RCBO.

[SailingHome]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

 

It is 100% correct and almost identical to your box.

 

The incoming supply goes to the bottom of the big breaker.

The live from that breaker goes to the live bus bar that the MCB clip on to. 

The neutral from the main breaker is connected internally to the neutral bus bar to the left. You can actually see the internal connection going to the right in the middle of the neutral bar.

 

That it makes no sense inside my box. I'm realizing just how dangerous that situation is. Check this out...

Most of the top bar looks like an istall as I said - no outlet grounds so they used the bar for neutral directly violating the neutal to ground rule that should only be at the entry of the building?

 

[SailingHome]

6 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

The left bar is ALWAYS neutral...it's connected by busbar to the N (left side) of the main breaker/RCBO. All neutral (white) wires connect to that left bar. The L and N of the breaker/RCBO are clearly marked on the breaker/RCBO and the L (right side) feeds the live busbar that the four circuit breakers are connected to. All live wires are black.

 

The top bar is the Ground bar as it is bonded to the CU case. The incoming N is bonded to the ground bar FIRST and then on to the N on the breaker/RCBO.

Pretty sure the original wiring is blue, white, and brown.. black is either a single new circuit to an outlet ot the only wire they had to add ground later. 

 Look in the top left you see 2 black wires coming in. Those are ground. As is that green and yellow. Now if you're a Thai contractor who routinely does electrical and everything else but are not an electrician and they're using the top bar as a neutral where are you going to connect your grounds? 

It is al too common in Thai wiring to have neutral ground as it is typically a single provincial home experience. But this is inside of a building. The beginning reality of neutral bonded to ground is the issue. 

 Yes, whoever added ground should have fixed it the original installer didn't know the rest why would any untrained electrician as most contractors are untrained reading books doing their best.

For that matter the complaints of needing  ground especially when the new aircon was making more high voltage effects on metal surfaces (stray currents?) to where touching an appliance was painful...

 An air conditioner without a ground wire is bad enough....

Let's consider some sources I am finding based on this convo... The AC still has no ground at all and thus the neural is bonded to ground.

Effects on Air Conditioning Units without Proper Grounding:
Ensuring proper grounding and bonding in air conditioning (AC) systems is crucial for safety and optimal performance. In Thailand, electrical installations must comply with the Electrical Installation Standard for Thailand (EIT Standard 2001-56), which mandates that the neutral (N) and ground (PE) conductors be bonded together only at the main distribution board (MDB). This practice aligns with the TN-C-S system, prevalent in Thailand. RMUTL Blog
•    Increased Wear on Compressor and Motors: Without proper grounding, AC compressors and motors can experience stray voltage and current, leading to overheating, insulation breakdown, and eventual failure. The ASHRAE Handbook—HVAC Systems and Equipment emphasizes the importance of proper grounding to prevent such issues.
•    Impact on Electrical Components (Capacitors and Relays): Capacitors, which provide the necessary starting torque for motors, are sensitive to ungrounded or improperly grounded circuits. Lack of grounding can cause capacitors to overheat or rupture, affecting the entire system's operation. Proper grounding practices are detailed in the ASHRAE Handbook—HVAC Systems and Equipment.
•    System Flooding and Electrical Arcing: Improper grounding increases the risk of electrical arcing, which can damage refrigerant lines and cause system flooding due to leaks or poor condensation drainage. The ASHRAE Handbook—HVAC Systems and Equipment discusses the importance of grounding in preventing such hazards.



Why a New Air Conditioner Without Proper Grounding Is More Dangerous than an Older Unit

New air conditioning systems pose a greater risk of shocks and electrical hazards when installed without proper grounding compared to older units. Here’s why:
________________________________________
1. Advanced Electronics Are More Vulnerable
•    Sensitive Components:
o    Modern air conditioners use advanced electronics, including:
    Variable Frequency Drives (VFDs) for motor speed control.
    Inverter technology for energy efficiency.
    Sensors for precise temperature and humidity regulation.
o    These components require precise grounding to prevent electrical anomalies, which can create hazardous conditions like voltage leaks or stray currents.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: Advanced electronics amplify electrical imbalances, creating higher risks of shocks to users and technicians.
o    Source: (Pumps & Systems)
________________________________________
2. Stray Currents Are More Severe
•    Mechanism:
o    Without grounding, stray currents have no safe path to dissipate, leading to:
    High voltage buildup in metallic parts, such as the chassis, compressor, and fan housing.
    Potentially lethal shocks when these parts are touched.
o    Modern units, with their higher power demands and electronics, generate larger stray currents than older systems.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: The lack of a ground wire exacerbates the risk of severe electrical shocks, especially during maintenance or usage.
________________________________________
3. Increased Risk of Electrical Arcing
•    How It Happens:
o    Newer units use higher efficiency components that operate at variable speeds. Without proper grounding, these variations can cause electrical arcs in:
    Circuit boards.
    Junction boxes.
    Wiring connections.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: Electrical arcs can ignite surrounding materials, increasing the risk of fire.
o    Source: (ASHRAE Handbook)
________________________________________
4. Higher Operating Voltages
•    Voltage Demands in New Systems:
o    Without grounding, voltage irregularities can create severe overcurrents, damaging components and increasing shock risks.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: Older systems with simpler designs and lower power demands were less likely to generate high overvoltages during faults.
________________________________________
5. Metallic Casings and Safety Features
•    Metal Components:
o    Modern units often have metallic outer casings or enclosures for durability and heat dissipation.
o    In the absence of proper grounding:
    Stray currents can charge the casing, turning the entire unit into an electrocution hazard.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: Older units, often made of plastic or insulated materials, presented a lower risk of conductive shocks.
•    Disabled Safety Features:
o    Many modern ACs include safety mechanisms, such as:
    Ground fault circuit interrupters (GFCIs).
    Surge protection.
o    These features rely on proper grounding to function.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: Without a ground wire, these safety systems may fail, leaving users unprotected.
________________________________________
6. Ionization Effects
•    Static Buildup:
o    Faulty grounding in modern units can lead to ionization of internal components, creating static charges on surfaces.
o    Why It’s More Dangerous: This can cause shocks during routine contact and increase wear on electrical components, further amplifying risk.


 So OK do we know why I didn't touch my cook so, television, computer so I have no choice to install ground wires because ground wires are "not a major repair," when major can be any definition the owner wants?

[NanLaew]

2 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

Pretty sure the original wiring is blue, white, and brown.. black is either a single new circuit to an outlet ot the only wire they had to add ground later. 

 

As mentioned at least twice already, the colour of the wiring is irrelevant. I only stated what I used for clarity when looking at the picture of my CU.

 

If the CU you picture is in an apartment and, as you now suggest, there's a main CU elsewhere in the building, then any debate about correct implementation of MEN bonding is irrelevant until you know what is in the main CU. You could be correct, but that needs to be confirmed.

[SailingHome]

Just now, NanLaew said:

 

As mentioned at least twice already, the colour of the wiring is irrelevant. I only stated what I used for clarity when looking at the picture of my CU.

 

If the CU you picture is in an apartment and, as you now suggest, there's a main CU elsewhere in the building, then any debate about correct implementation of MEN bonding is irrelevant until you know what is in the main CU. You could be correct, but that needs to be confirmed.

The green and yellow is a ground. You don't bond neutral to a box inside of a building, right? The two black wires I show are the ground added to keep me from being stray current pained after the new aircon was put in.  Those are bonded to the neutral bar but still effective as a ground in this case. The new air con was put in without checking the box or giving it a ground. What needs confirmation there? Who of offical capacity that isn't a Juristiic person already Wil do that?

 I don't think anyone could make the argument that the person adding ground would have rearranged the entire box like that. Especially when the first ground (greeen) was added before the AC change because of low current stray voltages.

I've lived in LOS almost 15 years and I remember 15 years ago anywhere you went it was common to feel low current stray voltages on your appliances dictating have an internal ground or a ground wire. It was so common i had to get the apartment complex I lived in to recognize that problem and they were very quick to install ground wires because of articles that were posted here by experts.

I may have missed what exactly a CU is...

[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

I may have missed what exactly a CU is...

 

CU = Consumer Unit. The box that circuit breakers and other circuit protections are installed in.

[SailingHome]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

CU = Consumer Unit. The box that circuit breakers and other circuit protections are installed in.

Great. But are we in agreement that all the neutrals need to be moved to the left and all of the grounds need to be moved to the top ? No cross-over between? A ground needs to be run to the air conditioner? Fix the splices?  What else? Locate it where it can be reached as long as I am doing it? Doesn't that mean new wiring to reach the new location?

I;m not going to get that much fixed without a certifying body so grandfather the location?

[NanLaew]

28 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

Great. But are we in agreement that all the neutrals need to be moved to the left and all of the grounds need to be moved to the top ? No cross-over between? A ground needs to be run to the air conditioner? Fix the splices?  What else? Locate it where it can be reached as long as I am doing it? Doesn't that mean new wiring to reach the new location?

I;m not going to get that much fixed without a certifying body so grandfather the location?

 

Opening Pandora's dangerous box maybe?

 

This being Thailand, I would also consider that your small CU ground/neutral busbars may be reversed deliberately in order to match incorrectly wired outlets?

 

Just putting on my Thai sparky's cap for a moment (bit tight, but I'll persist): the untrained "electrician's assistant" mistakenly wired all the apartment's outlets reversed. The "chief electrician" spots this but, rather than opening half a dozen (or more) receptacles in each room to correct the errors, he does the quick-fix and reverses the wires inside the CU. Problem solved/created...

[SailingHome]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Opening Pandora's dangerous box maybe?

 

This being Thailand, I would also consider that your small CU ground/neutral busbars may be reversed deliberately in order to match incorrectly wired outlets?

 

Just putting on my Thai sparky's cap for a moment (bit tight, but I'll persist): the untrained "electrician's assistant" mistakenly wired all the apartment's outlets reversed. The "chief electrician" spots this but, rather than opening half a dozen (or more) receptacles in each room to correct the errors, he does the quick-fix and reverses the wires inside the CU. Problem solved/created...

A little more layman oriented I think you're saying the person that put in the box is the electrician's assistant and by backwards you mean reverse neutral and hot ? 

[NanLaew]

2 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

A little more layman oriented I think you're saying the person that put in the box is the electrician's assistant and by backwards you mean reverse neutral and hot ? 

 

No. I am suggesting that you really need to seek out a qualified electrician.