Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Especially if they don't get a TIN! 

Yes but they can see remittances.

[NoDisplayName]

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

What part of this are you having difficulty in understanding ?

 

I understand this part:

 

1.  Tax Resident - Check.

2.  Remit a Pension - Check

3.  Pension not taxable by Thailand under DTA - Check

4.  NO tax return required - Check

 

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

But they do in the Revenue Code. Which has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions.

 

Yes, Virginia, you do benefit from a tax credit paid to the source country on your assessable income.  But NOT on the tax forms.  You deduct them from your tax calculations when you are self-determining whether you need to file.

 

Alternatively, you can attend a TRD office, let them fiddle with the documentation, decide you don't owe tax, and they either tell you not to file, or they manually enter suitable numbers in the wrong blanks in order to get the right answer.

 

You can't do this by your lonesome, it's not possible with Thai tax forms.  Only a manager-level officer can override the rules to approve a wonky return.

 

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes but they can see remittances.

RD can't, do you mean the bank?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

I guess stressmonkeys gonna havta stress...

 

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

I guess stressmonkeys gonna havta stress...

I suppose. That's not me in my current situation. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

RD can't, do you mean the bank?

Wrong.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

1.  Tax Resident - Check.

2.  Remit a Pension - Check

3.  Pension not taxable by Thailand under DTA

4.  NO tax return required - Check

 

Perhaps you could show your workings from the Revenue Code or a DTA that backs up point 4.

[oldcpu]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Perhaps you could show your workings from the Revenue Code or a DTA that backs up point 4.

 

Thai tax code Section 42(17).

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Njoku said:

Parliament has the power to legislate into law a number of options once them deem them necessary, these guys are living in Lala land if they think that cant happen, there only hope is to die or leave before that day arrives.

 

Not quite. They have a third choice and that is to ignore the panic merchants wittering away about what may but probably won't eventuate.

 

After 24 pages of tax-panic that's based on a total lack of official information, this thread is only being kept afloat by groundless scaremongering and conjecture. The limited and questionable entertainment value has already evaporated.

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Wrong.

Please explain what you are trying to say.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Please explain what you are trying to say.

That Thai Revenue has access to all international remittances even if no TIN.

 

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Perhaps you could show your workings from the Revenue Code or a DTA that backs up point 4.

 

Certain pensions are non-assessable, as is US social security.

 

Instructions for PN90 tell us.

 

No. 11 Tax Computation

Two methods available.

 

(1) Computation of Net-Income Tax
In computing tax liability by using the Net-Income Tax method, a taxpayer has to take into account all assessable income arising in a tax year.

 

(2) Computation of Gross-Income Tax
If you have assessable income other than employment income

 

Page 25

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/GUIDE_90_66_Complete.pdf

 

Non-assessable income does not go into the calculations, as there is no way to deduct/remove them later.

 

As to the tax credit, you might be able to use section 11, line 13.

Maybe, but you'd need to provide some tax withholding certificate issued by the taxing authority.   Good luck with that.

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That Thai Revenue has access to all international remittances even if no TIN.

 

Only if there is a tax investigation, which ain't going to happen to foreigners remitting 100k baht month. 

I can only imagine they would know of your existence if your own country was investigating you or the bank reported you for transferring say $500,000 regularly or similar sums that look like money laundering. 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

Certain pensions are non-assessable, as is US social security.

 

Then you will have no dramas posting where it says they are non- assessable

 

Don't confuse only taxable in XYZ, as being non assessable.

 

Pensions according to the revenue code Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories

 

Quote

Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

You can see the word assessable ?

 

You can see the word Pension ?

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Only if there is a tax investigation, which ain't going to happen to foreigners remitting 100k baht month. 

I can only imagine they would know of your existence if your own country was investigating you or the bank reported you for transferring say $500,000 regularly or similar sums that look like money laundering. 

Wrong.

They can see all of them.

They might potentially investigate if they see atypical patterns.

Doesn't mean that they will of course. 

Obviously they can't bother every person with remittances.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Njoku said:

what he's trying to say is one day you visit your immigration centre to renew your long stay visa and wo and behold this particular centre not only requires a bank letter but a letter from there tax office as well...it might not be law now but the Pattaya one is well known for adding extras at there wim, and yeah one day even though your up on your soap box in utter denial over this they with a stroke of a pen legislate and give authority to the Tax office to "collect" in various ways. I wouldn't want to be trying to orginze years of lodging tax returns with one or two weeks left on my visa.

 

Dont know why it's so hard for people to accept, it's no big deal to lodge a tax return. Go home England will welcome you back..

 

Ignoring your repetitious speculation of what you think may happen (again), filing a tax return is a big deal if one's local RD says that you don't need, don't qualify for, or simply refuses to give you a TIN.

 

PS: I'm not a Englander.

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Wrong.

They can see all of them.

They might potentially investigate if they see atypical patterns.

Doesn't mean that they will of course. 

Obviously they can't bother every person with remittances.

The RD cannot see all remittances into Thailand by foreigners unless they have a good reason to, then can ask other agencies to comply with their request. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

The RD cannot see all remittances into Thailand by foreigners unless they have a good reason to, then can ask other agencies to comply with their request. 

You're wrong.money 

[redwood1]

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That Thai Revenue has access to all international remittances even if no TIN.

 

 

I say no friggin way they can ever hope to keep up with all money transfers coming in from every country on earth......ATMs, Credit Cards. Western Union, Wise, Wires,direct deposits bla bla.....Mix in 20-30 million tourist.......And........It will NEVER happen...Ever....

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

19 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Then you will have no dramas posting where it says they are non- assessable

 

Don't confuse only taxable in XYZ, as being non assessable.

 

Pensions according to the revenue code Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories

 

 

You can see the word assessable ?

 

You can see the word Pension ?

 

We all know what the TRD means by assessable income, that being subject to Thai taxation.  Income prior to Jan 2024 and certain pensions are exempt, not taxable, non-assessable, not to be declared on the tax forms.

 

I've already schooled you on your CRS nonsense.

 

You can google this one for yourself, m'kay?

[oldcpu]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Then you will have no dramas posting where it says they are non- assessable

 

Don't confuse only taxable in XYZ, as being non assessable.

 

Pensions according to the revenue code Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories

 

Quote

Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

 

...and as I pointed out section 42 of the Thai tax code goes one step further than section 40 and it lists income that is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation. Item-17 in section-42 may infact be very relevant.

 

Only quoting section 40 is IMHO cherry picking.

[Cuchulainn]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

No.

It is fairly simple.  If you had $100,000 in savings on Dec. 31 2023.  And you used that account to transfer $30,000 here or to pay something off here in 2024,

that is not accessible income.

 

The principal (100,000) is not assessable,  but apparently the interest accrued is taxable if transferred in 2024. I'm in that boat.

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

...and as I pointed out section 42 of the Thai tax code goes one step further than section 40 and it lists income that is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation. Item-17 in section-42 may infact be very relevant.

 

Only quoting section 40 is IMHO cherry picking.

 

The Revenue Departmental Instruction No. Por. 161/2566
Regarding the Payment of the Assessable Income under Section 41 Paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code

 

IIn order for the Revenue officers to use this instruction as guidelines for the examination of, and recommendation to, taxpayers in Thailand having the income in accordance with Section 40 of the Revenue Code in the past tax year from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad under Section 41 Paragraph 2, the Revenue Department issues the instruction as follows:Department issues the instruction as follows:

 

Clause 1

Any persons residing in Thailand under Section 41 Paragraph 3 of the Revenue Code having assessable income from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad under Section 41 Paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code
in the aforesaid tax year, and bringing such assessable income into Thailand in any tax year shall take into account such assessable income to calculate income tax under Section 48 of the
Revenue Code in the tax year such assessable income is brought into Thailand.

 

 

Clause 2

All rules, regulations, instructions, rulings or practices which are in conflict or inconsistent with this Instruction shall be repealed.

 

Clause 3

This instruction shall apply to assessable income brought into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onwards.

Instructed dated: 15 September 2566
-Signature-
(Mr. Lavaron Sangsanit)
Director-General, the Revenue Department

 

 

In Thai and English

https://www.hlbthai.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/RD-Instruction-No.-Paw161-2566-Translation.pdf

 

[Jingthing]

53 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

I say no friggin way they can ever hope to keep up with all money transfers coming in from every country on earth......ATMs, Credit Cards. Western Union, Wise, Wires,direct deposits bla bla.....Mix in 20-30 million tourist.......And........It will NEVER happen...Ever....

 

 

Currently I'm only talking about remittances to bank accounts.

I have a good reason to think the way I do based on a commentary by a Thai tax attorney who has nothing to do with the clearly greedy TIN pushers we hear so much about.

Of course I have no insider knowledge about the workings of Thai Revenue nor would I expect them to announce that they do have  access to all bank account remittances which I believe that they do have.

I am going only by the commentary I refer to which I found very credible because his attitude was quite conservative basically expressing that he doubts they are going to go after typical retired expat pensioners at least anytime soon (again WITHOUT TINs) based on the information that they have about their typical retirement income remittances.

Why wouldn't they?

Extra work and when they find that the pensions are usually exempt, nothing to be gained.

Also as is widely understood by consensus the change in remittance timing memo was intended to catch Thai big fish, not retired expat small potatoes. Yet another case of unintended consequances.

[Guavaman]

14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

...and as I pointed out section 42 of the Thai tax code goes one step further than section 40 and it lists income that is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation. Item-17 in section-42 may infact be very relevant.

Regarding the reference to Ministerial Regulations in the Revenue Code, there are only two that are specified in a footnote to category (17):

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

(17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial Regulations.¹²

¹²M.R. No. 126, No. 201 B.E. 2539

 

Ministerial Regulation No. 126, (B.E. 2509) Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption

Clause 2 The following incomes shall be prescribed as incomes under (17) of Section 42 of the Revenue Code as amended by the Revenue Code Amendment Act (No. 10), B.E. 2496 :

 

95 types of exempted income are listed with descriptions; the English translation appears on the RD website here:

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/MR_126.pdf

 

The only other Ministerial Regulation referred to in Section 42 (17) is M.R. No. 201 (B.E. 2539) covering exemption from personal income tax on compensation from transfer of ownership in real estate in the Pa Sak Basin Development Project.

[Jingthing]

Another paranoid thing to consider.

With the adoption of AI, any taxing agency, and why not the Thai one, is going to be able to do a lot more work with a lot less effort and manpower.

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 2:32 AM, oldcpu said:

have elderly (in the mid-70s to early 80s)  friends on type-O non-immigrant visa who purely for the convenience  use an agent (where they meet all immigration requirements but they don't want to suffer through lines or waits at immigration).  I don't begrudge them that and I believe for them such is a good idea.

I have two elderly friends like that here also.  They have the money in the bank, but their health and mobility is not what it used to be, thus, they use an agent, and who you blame them?  

 

On 1/18/2025 at 2:32 AM, oldcpu said:

I note you also use an agent to avoid the 800k in the bank - I won't repeat my reply there that I posted elsewhere on that aspect.

My reason for using an agent is more for the protection of my money, not due to lack of affordability. 

 

It was a no brainer when the 800k kept invested in my home country more than paid for the agent.

 

I simply don't trust the Thai government.  Never have, and never will.  I's an unstable country, and have been for decades.  

 

On 1/18/2025 at 2:32 AM, oldcpu said:

But if one is thinking of an agent strictly because they want to avoid obtaining a Thailand tax clearance certificate, my view is that it is premature to look for an agent for that reason.  A number of reports of expats who have very recently gone for 1-year extensions on their permission to  stay (on their underlying type-O visa) have noted there was no requirement for such a certificate. So its premature to look for agent to handle a 'tax clearance certificate" aspect.

  The agent I have consulted with deals with an accounting firm. 

 

Just like in my home country, creative accounting can make many tax liabilities go away, legally. 

 

I have everything set up for the second half of March, but I am still looking around and comparing prices and services.

 

As said, I am not one the members that place my faith in TiT and it will all go away.  If it does, great, if it doesn't, come late March, my documents to remain legal here should be in order.  

 

Depending on what I may / will have to pay will determine my tax residency  status in Thailand in the future.   It's no problem for me to leave for 6 months. 

 

 

[lordgrinz]

47 minutes ago, Cuchulainn said:

The principal (100,000) is not assessable,  but apparently the interest accrued is taxable if transferred in 2024. I'm in that boat.

 

Which begs the question, is the remittance FIFO or LIFO? Meaning is the interest earned considered first, or the principal from years of savings first. 

[Nik23]

where do i have to sign up in order to do a Personal Income tax?  Link?

 

[JackGats]

On 1/18/2025 at 2:16 PM, WebGuy said:

Didn't know that if being on LTR and getting income from abroad is not taxed. Is this really correct? 

 

If this is correct, I am closing my Thai company and switching to LTR.

It is correct for the time being, ie as long as something new like taxation on world-wide income doesn't arise. Your remittances while you hold an LTR visa are tax-free (which doesn't mean you are not required to file taxes and mention said remittances in your filing).

[cardinalblue]

Evolving Guideline doesn’t mean regulations and rules…

 

what bothers me most is who presenting these seminars - tax advisers…

 

why can’t Thai gov representatives able to explain these so called guidelines?

 

silly to put into effect Jan 1st 2024 when things have not been well thought out and questions cannot be answered and no process/markers been laid out

 

kind of like collecting taxes from the local  Thai population - currently doing a pissed poor job of it