Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Now tell us about YOU filing your draft.

 

I haven't filed anything, yet.

 

But as my only remitted income in 2024 is my Government Pension, I have an A4 envelope, complete with annual bank statement, copies of my P60's, that I can easily transfer to paperwork, depending what the updated paperwork says.

 

That does not get away from the fact that the RD Office used a PND 91 to put my pension details, and another poster has also said that he uses a PND 91 for his pension.

 

So clearly it can be done.

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I did visit my tax office.  Showed the lady a list of my remittances.  She asked "salary or pension"?  I said neither, prior savings.  She said non-assessable is not reported, no filing necessary unless requesting a refund of withholding tax.

 

 

Interesting.

 

Thanks for posting that tidbit. 

 

[NoDisplayName]

33 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I haven't filed anything, yet.

 

So you have nothing.

Just an incorrectly penciled-in "draft."

Come back when you've filed.

 

33 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

another poster has also said that he uses a PND 91 for his pension

 

Yes, another poster has an ASSESSABLE pension.  He does not claim a foreign tax credit, he does not deduct his non-assessable pension, he does not pass GO, he does not collect $200.  If I remember correctly, after deducting TEDA and with the 150K zero tax bracket, he does pay a small amount of tax in Thailand.

 

The PN91 is for income from employment only, it's the short form.  The PN90 is for income from all sources. 

 

As you (surprisingly!) correctly pointed out, pensions are considered income derived from employment.  If that's all the other poster is claiming, then of course he'd use the employment income only tax form.

 

**EDIT**

 

Poster in question is @samtam who stated on page 21:

 

None of my assessable income is from employment, but from pension and dividends in 2024, all untaxed at source and brought in through ATM, Debit Card, FPS or Credit Card expenditure, all below my TEDA.

 

So all assessable income, but not claiming tax credit or DTA benefits.  Filing, but below TEDA, so no tax due.  Not relevant to discussion.

 

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I haven't filed anything, yet.

 

But as my only remitted income in 2024 is my Government Pension, I have an A4 envelope, complete with annual bank statement, copies of my P60's, that I can easily transfer to paperwork, depending what the updated paperwork says.

 

That does not get away from the fact that the RD Office used a PND 91 to put my pension details, and another poster has also said that he uses a PND 91 for his pension.

 

So clearly it can be done.

 

Yes, but will the exemptions be rejected, because you placed them in a tax return field which is intended for something else,  and you end up paying tax on funds that were supposed to be tax exempt?

 

Sure - it can be done (assuming the RD assigns one a TIN - some of us failed in that attempt) - but if done, will one then be in appeal territory? 

 

I think we are beginning to see now more and more reports from those who state they are being told by local RD that certain types of remitted foreign income are exempt, and no tax filing necessary (unless one has local income or one has foreign income that is not exempt).

[NoDisplayName]

12 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Interesting.

 

Thanks for posting that tidbit. 

 

 

Wife and I went in because I was trying to file online, but system would not recognize my old TIN or new pink ID number (not same).

 

That was July 2024.  I wanted to get a history of tax returns after reading about the change in interpretation of tax regulations concerning remittances, and before potential worldwide taxation legislation was introduced.  The next week I filed three years of late returns.

 

We got the pink ID activated, they canceled the old TIN, and I asked her about my filing requirements.

 

I provided a list of all remittance amounts and dates, and the total was slightly over my TEDA for assessable remittances.  TEDA never came into play, as no remitted funds were taxable.

[The Cyclist]

29 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Yes, but will the exemptions be rejected, because you placed them in a tax return field which is intended for something else,  and you end up paying tax on funds that were supposed to be tax exempt?

 

I think you are looking for things that do not exist.

 

If I went to the RD Office this afternoon, I could fill in my details ( Less TIN ) on a PND91

 

Section A

 

Box 1. Salaries, wages, pensions etc                  XXXXXXX Baht

 

Box 2. Less Exempted income   ( The same )   XXXXXXX Baht

 

Annual Bank Printout

 

Copies of my P60's

 

Copy of UK - Thai DTA.

 

With an explanation of why the whole XXXXXXX Baht is exempt *

 

And ask for a TIN to actually file it. They might give me one, or they might tell me no need. Either way, I have something of substance to produce in the event of any future questions.

 

* Exempt meaning not liable to Thai Taxation as opposed to being exempt filing a tax return.

 

Or perhaps all the fields will be available when the updated English Language Form is released. Or as I said previously, it might not be an updated English Language Form, it might be a complete new form that covers all foreign income, taxes paid and DTA's.

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I think you are looking for things that do not exist.

 

That would be your tax return.

 

11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I have something of substance to produce in the event of any future questions.

 

No, you have an incorrectly penciled-in "draft."

You have nothing of relevant substance until you file a return.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

No, you have an incorrectly penciled-in "draft."

 

 

And you have an English comprehension issue, that you might want to sort out.

 

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If I went to the RD Office this afternoon, I could fill in my details ( Less TIN ) on a PND91

 

I could fill in my details ( Less TIN ) on a PND 91

 

It doesn't say anything about handing over a previous draft copy, does it ?
 

 

 

[CallumWK]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

Interesting.

 

Thanks for posting that tidbit. 

 

 

Take a look at this post from last year, when I went to visit the revenue department in Jomtien.

 

 

[oldcpu]

correcting error ...

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I think you are looking for things that do not exist.

 

If I went to the RD Office this afternoon, I could fill in my details ( Less TIN ) on a PND91

 

Section A

 

Box 1. Salaries, wages, pensions etc                  XXXXXXX Baht

 

Box 2. Less Exempted income   ( The same )   XXXXXXX Baht

 

Annual Bank Printout

 

Copies of my P60's

 

Copy of UK - Thai DTA.

 

With an explanation of why the whole XXXXXXX Baht is exempt *

 

And ask for a TIN to actually file it. They might give me one, or they might tell me no need. Either way, I have something of substance to produce in the event of any future questions.

 

* Exempt meaning not liable to Thai Taxation as opposed to being exempt filing a tax return.

 

Or perhaps all the fields will be available when the updated English Language Form is released. Or as I said previously, it might not be an updated English Language Form, it might be a complete new form that covers all foreign income, taxes paid and DTA's.

 

 

 

 

Cyclist ..  I examined PID.90 and PID.91 (year 2023 English language version  and also the Thai language 2024 version).  They do not support what you posted.

 

Details:

 

If one looks at PID.91 (2023) tax computation:

A.(1) is Salaries, wages pensions (plus exempted income from B.5).
A.(2) is Less exempted income (from B.6)

B.5 ?  That is Severance Pay under Labour Law.

B.6?  That is the total of B.1 to B.5 to be filled in A.2 (ie Private fund contribution + Government Pension fund contribution + Private teacher aid fund contribution + Income exemption (limited to ONLY "disabled taxpayer under age-65" and "taxpayer aged 65 years or older (including diabled taxpayer), + Severance pay under labour law.

 

If one then looks at Allowance(s) and Exemption(s) after Deduction of Expense(s) Attachment

 

No where is there ANY location for DTA exempt income, nor for por-161/162 exempt income, nor for LTR exempt income.

 

= = =

 

So instead ... if one looks at PID.90 (2023):

 

No.1 (1) Section 40 (1) : Salary, wage, pension etc (included exempted income from 2.(4))
No.1 (2) does not address anything to do with Por-161/162 nor DTA exemptions.  It only includes (1)Provident fund contributions, (2) Government Pension Fund contributions, (3) Private teacher aid fund contributions, and (4) Serverance Pay under Labour law.

 

The "No.2" is where Assessable income under section 40(3) is ADDED and NOT subtracted.

 

There is no No.2(4) that is 'obvious' unless one refers to "Allowances and Exemptions after Deduction of Expensives Attachment" where "4" is "Parential care".

 

Further if one examines "Allowances and Exemptions after Deduction of Expensives Attachment" there is NO place for Por-161/162 nor DTA exemptions, nor LTR exempt income.  The sum of this goes to 11(2).

 

Conclusion:

 

I caution any one reading this thread, who has exempt income under Por-161/162 or a DTA , or an LTR visa, to be very skeptical as to what Cyclist posted.  Study the forms yourself and draw your own conclusion.

 

My conclusion?
 
There is NO place for Por-161/162 nor DTA exemptions, nor LTR exempt income.  If one tries to force those exemptions in any exemption field in PID-90 or PID-91 , they could be denied as exemptions (as they are in the wrong field being 'forced' into such by you) and hence you risk paying Thai tax on income that is supposed to be 100% exempt taxation.

 

 

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, CallumWK said:

 

Take a look at this post from last year, when I went to visit the revenue department in Jomtien.

 

There is a lot of trust there (by Thai RD) in what you posted.

 

For me?

 

I would ensure I stayed 100% legal and kept records of everything to back up my legal tax management approach. Just because someone 'trusts one' does not mean that someone might not come back sometime and do an audit.

 

Having typed that - Thanks for sharing.  Most interesting.

.

[The Cyclist]

45 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Cyclist ..  I examined PID.90 and PID.91 (year 2023 English language version  and also the Thai language 2024 version).  They do not support what you posted.

 

I am posting what the RD Officer, not only told me, but filled in a PND 91 in pencil for me to use as a template.

 

So perhaps this will go someway to validate what the RD Officer told me, showed me, regardless of what the paperwork currently says or does not say.

 

These are the only Facts that I claim to know.

 

The UK - Thai DTA says that my UK Government Pension ( This is the important part ) is only taxable in the UK.

 

That same DTA does not mention any of the following items

 

* Assessable or Non assessable in Thailand.

 

* Nor does it say that you will not tax file if you are a tax resident of Thailand.

 

* Nor does it say that you exempt from following Thai tax laws and rules if you are tax resident of Thailand.

 

That is the easy part

 

We are aware that Thai Tax Residents from the 01 Jan 2024 must file a tax return if they have assessable income.

 

Here is the contentious Part.

 

Section 40 of the Revenue Code states quite clearly

 

Quote

Assessable income is income of the following categories 

 

Nothing contentious about the above

 

Section 40, Part ( 1 ) states

 

Quote

 Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

Pensions are clearly stated as assessable income.

 

It doesn't matter a jot that 15 years ago I was told " Dont worry about tax in Thailand, as long as you are not earning in Thailand, no-one gives a monkeys " 

 

And that is pretty much how i have lived for the past 15 years. But times are a changing. And I read in a black and white, as being a tax resident, my remitted pension is assessable income, and I need to file a tax return.

 

It also matters not a jot, that Thailand will not receive a Satang in tax, what matters more to me is sticking to the rules as best I can.

 

I certainly would not like to get my self in a pile of excrement, and possibly lose 15 years of setting up a good life, for the sake of a lousy tax form.

[Nik23]

So, just a question:What people who withdraw money from atm, are supposed to do now?Take all the receipts  from 2024 to the RD Officer and voluntarily  declare their income that came into the country?

[oldcpu]

23 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

It also matters not a jot, that Thailand will not receive a Satang in tax, what matters more to me is sticking to the rules as best I can.

 

I certainly would not like to get my self in a pile of excrement, and possibly lose 15 years of setting up a good life, for the sake of a lousy tax form.

 

We both have the same view there in regards to what I quoted.

 

I am on an LTR visa and the Royal Decree 743 makes it clear one can lose their tax exemption if one does not follow the Thai Minister of Finances rules.

 

So even thou I  have a certain strong opinion about no Thai tax return needed if income only from  remitted foreign income (as an LTR visa holder) , and an opinion about no Thai  tax return needed for foreign income remitted (if exempt under a DTA) , and an opinion about no Thai tax needed for foreign income remitted (if exempt per por.161.162) , I still decided in advance to remit no foreign funds into Thailand in 2024 calendar/tax year.  This (not needing to file a Thai tax return) was confirmed with a Phuket RD official if I remitted no foreign income and if had had no Thai income)- and further he would not give me a Thai tax ID.

 

I know sometime in next few years I will have to start remitting foreign money to Thailand - and I probably could do such today tax free with no Thai income tax return submission required.  But 'probably' is not good enough for me ... so I will wait a few years and do my very best to learn off of the experience of others.

 

For while I clearly have a strong opinion on this (no tax return needed for the noted remitted income), I see no need to take a chance, as my opinions are not always 100% correct.

 

Every expat (IMHO) should  be aware of their own financial situation in regards the the DTA with their income source country, and the status of their funds relative to por.161-162, and make their own decision given their financial situation. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Nik23 said:

So, just a question:What people who withdraw money from atm, are supposed to do now?Take all the receipts  from 2024 to the RD Officer and voluntarily  declare their income that came into the country?

My opinion.

A grey area at the moment.

You could do nothing and for this year probably be OK.

OR you could know the source of the funds for the ATM withdrawals such as non-accessible pension and keep a record of that but also do nothing.
OR if you knew the source of those funds was accessible you could file that income under it's category and keep the record of ATM activity in case of audit. Receipts fade away. You need the bank records.

[Nik23]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My opinion.

A grey area at the moment.

You could do nothing and for this year probably be OK.

OR you could know the source of the funds for the ATM withdrawals such as non-accessible pension and keep a record of that but also do nothing.
OR if you knew the source of those funds was accessible you could file that income under it's category and keep the record of ATM activity in case of audit. Receipts fade away. You need the bank records.

I see.I think the proper think would be, to wait for more clarification.I dont want to open Pandora's Box .  **The money is from dividents

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, Nik23 said:

So, just a question:What people who withdraw money from atm, are supposed to do now?Take all the receipts  from 2024 to the RD Officer and voluntarily  declare their income that came into the country?

 

I suspect a single (multi-page) bank statement, possibly with hand marked up explanations, and then scanned electronically (for an electronic submission and for one's records) would be better than  "all the receipts".

 

Having typed that, I am not saying doing that.

 

Like everyone else (even if in my case I am not so much affected) I am curious as to how this will evolve. 

 

Every now and then (when absent minded) i will use a foreign credit card (instead of my Thai credit card) for a Thai purchase ... and of course, then some might claim - assessable income !! put this on your tax return.

 

I probably should follow my wife' advice and lock up my foreign credit cards when in Thailand.  The problem there is I used to do that, and in one past visit outside of Thailand, I forgot to bring my foreign credit cards with me.  ....

 

Being absent minded at times has its problems.  lol !!

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Nik23 said:

I see.I think the proper think would be, to wait for more clarification.I dont want to open Pandora's Box .  **The money is from dividents

Dividends are accessable.

In that case, I would either do nothing because they're probably not getting ATM stuff this year but maybe later OR if you know you need to file anyway for another reason then add that money as dividend income if you want to be cautious.

In any case keep records.

I think they will move towards considering ATM activity but as I said, a grey area for now. 

[Nik23]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Dividends are accessable.

In that case, I would either do nothing because they're probably not getting ATM stuff this year but maybe later OR if you know you need to file anyway for another reason then add that money as dividend income if you want to be cautious.

In any case keep records.

I think they will move towards considering ATM activity but as I said, a grey area for now. 

I agree, better wait and see what happens.  Refarding my dividents is a little compicated! lol They are dividents from a rental property,and this property  belongs to a company from a country that  has tax treaty with thailand . But the tax for this income is paid to the country that the property is, which has no treaty with thailand!!