Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

Indeed.  I was here 25 years ago (as a digital nomad then) and people were saying that re:taxation.

 

But it was also at that time wrong in terms of tax law - rather it represented what was practically in place.

 

Thats how it was described to me. Whether it was right or wrong, I have no idea. 

 

Looking into taxation over the last 18 months or so, I was never a tax resident ( 180 days ) anyway.

 

I still think it was a case of who gives a monkeys, but that is changing.

[SHA 2 BKK]

I’ve not availed myself of their services but I am on the mailing list of Carl Turner Expat Tax.  
 

A new Email has arrived titled “Video: Interview with Senior Revenue Department Lawyer”.  
 

The RD Lawyer states that if you have no assessable income there is no need to get a TIN and no need to file a return.  

 

As I only remitted pre 2024 income last year (end of year 2023 Bank Statements to prove), my Australian Government Service Pension is specifically excluded under the DTA (not the Australian Aged Pension) and I held an LTR for the duration of 2024, I am very comfortable in not getting a TIN and filing a return. 
 

But this is not a one size fits all situation.  Everyone has different circumstances.  But it made it clear again to keep or have access to paperwork especially if you are only bringing in pre 2024 income. 
 

 

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Looking into taxation over the last 18 months or so, I was never a tax resident ( 180 days ) anyway.

 

 

Ok ... then why did you go to the RD office?

 

When my wife talked to the RD on my behalf, the VERY FIRST thing they asked, was I a tax resident?  Had I been in Thailand for 180 days or greater?  Then they asked, what were the source(s) of my income.

 

I am surprised an RD official took the time to fill in a draft tax form for you, given that you are not a tax resident.

.

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I would suggest that anyone who has a Thai bank account is already on the RD's radar

 

That should not be a worry if people follow Thai law.

 

Compared to Canada (and for that matter Germany), Thailand has a pretty nice tax law.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

The RD Lawyer states that if you have no assessable income there is no need to get a TIN and no need to file a return.  

 

As I only remitted pre 2024 income last year (end of year 2023 Bank Statements to prove), my Australian Government Service Pension is specifically excluded under the DTA (not the Australian Aged Pension) and I held an LTR for the duration of 2024, I am very comfortable in not getting a TIN and filing a return. 

 

I am mostly in the same situation.   I even had a Phuket RD official tell me (via my wife) not to file a Thai tax return (nor would he give me a TIN).

 

But things can change - and so I try to understand the current tax regulations.  

 

3 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

But this is not a one size fits all situation.  Everyone has different circumstances.  But it made it clear again to keep or have access to paperwork especially if you are only bringing in pre 2024 income.

 

Indeed.  A very good point.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

Ok ... then why did you go to the RD office?

 

Because the period I was talking about, from around 2009 through to 2020, I was never a tax resident.

 

From 2021, I have been a tax resident ( Over 180 days )

 

Jeepers creepers, did you think you had tripped me up or something ?

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Because the period I was talking about, from around 2009 through to 2020, I was never a tax resident.

 

From 2021, I have been a tax resident ( Over 180 days )

 

Jeepers creepers, did you think you had tripped me up or something ?

 

You had me wondering. Your post was ambiguous.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

That should not be a worry if people follow Thai law.

 

That is why I am not worried, and even presented myself at an RD Office to speak with them and ask questions.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

You had me wondering. Your post was ambiguous.

 

There was nothing ambiguous about ' 15 / 16 years ago, when I first came here , I was told '

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

There was nothing ambiguous about ' 15 / 16 years ago, when I first came here , I was told '

 

i won't get into semantics.

 

I do recommend you go back to the tax office and get another assessment before you file any 2024 tax return, if the DTA with your country states only your country can tax your pension ,and if you have no Thai income and if you remitted that DTA specified non-Thai taxable income into Thailand.

 

As I typed before, if you do not double check this with an RD official who does not make a mistake (like the last one) you could end up being taxed on income that is tax exempt.

 

This is your call obviously - but I fear you are headed down the wrong path. However you don't seem to be concerned - so obviously, feel free to adopt your own approach.  For others thou, i don't recommend your approach (if their income is noted in a DTA as only being taxed in the source country, which is not Thailand).

[hunkidori]

I do hope that those who seem hell bent on getting the Thais to acknowledge their efforts to be good boys and pay their taxes aren't going to make things more difficult for the rest of us.

 

If we all do nothing then all this Thai tax nonsense will go away.

[jayboy]

38 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I would suggest that anyone who has a Thai bank account is already on the RD's radar

 

You are of course correct.Those bleating about the dangers of obtaining a TIN don't understand the process involved in "getting on the radar." I don't for a moment believe that TRD will be hunting down miscreants who have a TIN but haven"t filed.There are many legit reasons why a TIN holder might not need to file in any year - having no assessable income for example.

 

Having said that many foreign banks are pressurizing their clients to obtain a local tax number.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, hunkidori said:

If we all do nothing then all this Thai tax nonsense will go away.

 

Here is Expatthaitax, an RD Official and a Professor of some description

 

 

 

Some people better have a watch and listen, and stop posting crap

 

Especially people like @NoDisplayName  listen carefully towhat it says about

 

Section 40 - Assessable income

 

Part 1 - Pensions

 

How you prove it is not taxable.

 

3 times I counted Carl trying to get an answer on exempt income under DTA's and was given a stiff ignoring.

 

The message appears clear, unless you remit income below the filing thresholds, which are 60k / 120k / 220 k Baht, depending on income or single / joint filing. File and prove how your income is not taxable ( DTA ) or the tax Credit method.

 

Be sure to watch from the 45 minute mark 😀😀 That will give some the shivers.

[ronnie50]

On 1/16/2025 at 12:24 PM, Briggsy said:

It is slightly more complex than that. SA 106 is supplementary to a UK tax return. If you are completing an SA106 you are completing a UK tax return.

 

You need to have foreign income AND tax needs to be owing on that foreign income. This applies both to foreigners and UK nationals who are resident in the UK for tax purposes. It is irrespective of nationality.

 

If no tax is owing, you will probably find HMRC will de-register from self-assessment and the need for a return if this was the only reason.

 

We are getting very off-topic.

True of getting off topic. Anyway, the UK revenue site is clear. If you don't live in UK, have absolutely no assets there (OK maybe just a bank which is fine) you are NON-RESIDENT for tax purposes. There are some other things - your State Pension willl be taxed at  source (25%?)  but that's it. Others may know more..

[Badrabbit]

46 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Here is Expatthaitax, an RD Official and a Professor of some description

 

 

 

Some people better have a watch and listen, and stop posting crap

 

Especially people like @NoDisplayName  listen carefully towhat it says about

 

Section 40 - Assessable income

 

Part 1 - Pensions

 

How you prove it is not taxable.

 

3 times I counted Carl trying to get an answer on exempt income under DTA's and was given a stiff ignoring.

 

The message appears clear, unless you remit income below the filing thresholds, which are 60k / 120k / 220 k Baht, depending on income or single / joint filing. File and prove how your income is not taxable ( DTA ) or the tax Credit method.

 

Be sure to watch from the 45 minute mark 😀😀 That will give some the 

I've been here 17 years and have only paid tax in the UK, I can not afford to pay twice, 

I could manage a small amount so I will use this Expat Thailand to get a TIN it costs 7,000bht which for me will be trouble free so dont mind the cost, all they want is a copy of your passport and visa.

My local tax office wanted documents from the UK in order to get a TIN, they said it can be difficult.

 

[NoDisplayName]

48 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Some people better have a watch and listen, and stop posting crap

 

Especially people like @NoDisplayName  listen carefully towhat it says about

 

Great find!

 

From 28:00-30:30 they confirmed that if your remittances are not assessable, you don't need a TIN and you don't need to file.  If you remit assessable income over the threshold (60k), then you need to file a return, and may potentially owe tax.

 

At 31:30 they tell us that pensions are assessable if not excluded.  We know US social security is excluded, as are many government pensions, so check your DTA's, boys and girls. 

 

At 38:00 we're told we can take a tax credit on the tax form, but no detail given. ( Appears to be a miscommunication, unless someone can point out just how to take a foreign tax credit.)

 

So this confirms TRD is only interested in assessable income, no need to declare all remittances to include non-assessable income.

 

This is good news.

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

The message appears clear, unless you remit income below the filing thresholds

 

You mis-spelled "assessable income."

[Guavaman]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

So if a DTA says only taxable in UK (I assume this is a civil servant / military pension) then it is NOT taxable in Thailand.

 

This does not mean tax exempt. 

 

It means NOT taxable (if I understand your post correctly , assuming you are not using different word from the DTA).

 

In that case, clearly to me (ie IMHO)  that income should be treated as non assessable.   If non-assessable, then it need not be included in a Thai tax calculation and should not go on a tax form. 

 

As we consider the application of the Tax Code and DTAs, it appears that a key challenge is understanding the meaning of documents in Thai language as translated unofficially into English, and the meaning of DTAs in English. Meanwhile, only the official Thai language versions of the Tax Code and DTAs are legal in Thailand.

 

ROYAL DECREE (No. 18), B.E. 2505 (1962) Issued under the Revenue Code Regarding Revenue Tax Exemption states the following:

 

Section 3 Taxes and duties under the Revenue Code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the governments of foreign countries.

 

The Thai original also refers to exemptions of taxes for persons under the DTAs.

 

Regarding the concept represented by AN posters using the terms "non-assessable" or "nonassessable" or "non assessable," searching in the TRD website on any of these 3 AN terms fails to show any search results in the English language unofficial translations. 

 

A reasonable person might conclude that the absence of any of these terms in English on the TRD website could indicate that this concept does not exist in the Thai tax system. 

 

The only way to represent this concept in Thai language requires a description such as "income that doesn't need to be assessed," but nothing like that appears in results of searches in the Thai Tax Code.

 

On the other hand, the Tax Code consistently refers to "assessable income ... exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation," for example:

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation.

 

The Thai term is ยกเว้น yok wen, meaning yok = raise up + wen meaning exception; to provide an exception (to the rule).  In other words, exempt assessable income = income that may be computed into a monetary value that is exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation. 

 

 

Tax Code Section 39 In this Chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:

Assessable income means income that is taxable under this Chapter. Such income also includes a property or any other benefit received which may be computed into a monetary value, any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer and tax credit under Section 47 Bis.

 

In summary, "non-assessable" is not a concept that appears within the context of the Thai Tax Code; "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" is the concept applied in the RD context.

 

One of the interesting features of Thai culture is the preferred tendency to maintain wiggle-room, facilitated by the use of ambiguity in communications to allow for flexibility of response as appropriate for diverse and unforseen situations.  

 

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Guavaman said:

One of the interesting features of Thai culture is the preferred tendency to maintain wiggle-room, facilitated by the use of ambiguity in communications to allow for flexibility of response as appropriate for diverse and unforseen situations.

 

Or used to completely screw with anyone they wish, at any time they wish, it's that "ambiguity" that frightens us foreigners the most.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

3 times I counted Carl trying to get an answer on exempt income under DTA's and was given a stiff ignoring.

 

The answers did appear to meander around this question and not address it head on. 

 

I note comments are turned off on the video.  That was strange. Clearly they don't want feedback nor more questions.

 

The video jumps around a bit.

 

I skimmed through some of the video and did not watch it all. 

 

From what I could decipher - tax free income is treated as non assessable income (although those specific words were not consistently chosen):

 

- Income from before 1-Jan-2024 is tax free (ie non assessable - my words). Hence this is not to be included on a tax form.  But one should keep records to prove this.

 

- For pension income, it depends on each country (DTA) whether the income is tax free or taxable (ie non-assessable or assessable) - my interpretation of what was being said in the video. 

 

Also the foreign source of the pension income is important if it is taxable or tax free.  If  the income is tax free (non assessable) by Thailand (ie my words: if DTA claims only source country can tax), it does not go on a tax form. At least that is what I deciphered. Draw one's own conclusions from watching.

 

- For foreign pensions remitted to Thailand, if both the foreign country and Thailand can tax the income (per a DTA), then even if one has already paid tax in the foreign country, one still needs to apply for a tax ID and file a Thai tax return. Then the appropriate rebates/credits can take place (that is my wording).  This IMHO is well known and not disputed on this forum.

 

Inheritance and gifts, if remitted to Thailand are not taxable. Personal assets (such as a car outside of Thailand) from before 1-Jan-2024 sold and brought into Thailand, are not taxable.  But evidence is required to prove.

 

Again, the video jumped around, so do not believe what I typed/interpreted.  I recommend do not believe what I typed. Try and watch this one's self.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

The message appears clear, unless you remit income below the filing thresholds, which are 60k / 120k / 220 k Baht, depending on income or single / joint filing. File and prove how your income is not taxable ( DTA ) or the tax Credit method.

 

 

Message is clear for assessable income that is not tax free and not tax exempt. And that is not new news.

 

However most of the discussions on this thread and others is about income made non assessable due to tax exemptions (such as por-161/162 and some DTAs (not all DTAs)).

 

Again, the video jumped around, so do not believe what I typed/interpreted.  I recommend do not believe what I typed. Try and watch this one's self.

 

Frankly - I am very disappointed with the video as it was not as clear as would have been more helpful.

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, anchadian said:

Either way, if you indeed obtained a TIN, you're now on the RD's radar.

Another poster who fails to read and comprehend.

 

I did NOT obtain a TIN, so please explain how you come to believe that I will be on the TRD radar.

[oldcpu]

34 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

 

In summary, "non-assessable" is not a concept that appears within the context of the Thai Tax Code; "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" is the concept applied in the RD context.

 

 

I discovered mostly (but not totally) the same. 

 

I think (re; the tax code) "exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation" means non assessable (in the words of 'non-Thai' expatriates) ... and even just 'tax exempt' is considered 'non assessable' in the view of many (similar in some cases to 'exempt for the purposes of income tax calculation' even if not specifically stated 

 

... which I note,  does appear to be supported by what looks to be a deliberate omission (by the Thai RD) of different categories of common  exempt income that is tax exempt,  as note in Royal Decrees (such as LTR), in ministerial instructions (such as por.161/162) and in selected DTAs.

 

Why would the RD  DELIBERATELY (caps intended by me to make a point) omit an exempt entry field in a tax return form, if  a DTA ,or if a Royal Decree or a ministerial exemption says such can be an exempt deduction?  Why?  IMHO that clearly suggests such exempt income is not to be reported.

 

It disappointing to see the lack of clarity and see the confusion here.

 

I do believe that anyone who reports remitted income that is 100% exempt tax (due to DTAs) on their tax return, or remitted income that is 100% exempt tax (due to por.161/162) on their tax return, or remitted income that is 100%  tax exempt (due to Royal Decree) on their tax return, will still be mistakenly taxed on such because there is no place on the tax returns to list such as an exemption.  This is true for the 2023 Thai tax return in English language and this is true for the 2024 tax return in Thai language. I speculate that those who put such exemptions in the tax return, in the wrong field (and there is no good field), will I believe have such exemptions denied, and will pay tax on income that is tax exempt.

 

Then one is into appeal territory.  And good luck with that.

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Another poster who fails to read and comprehend.

 

I did NOT obtain a TIN, so please explain how you come to believe that I will be on the TRD radar.

 

I hope that I am on the TRD radar.  I asked they provide me a TIN and they denied me one.  I hope that they remember such.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

This is my concern - for those who file a 2024 Thai tax return ... if they put tax exempt income (from income excluded per the DTA) or put exempt remitted income (from pre-1-Jan-2024 savings) into their tax return , they could then be incorrectly taxed on that.

 

Why ? Because there is no place on the tax forms to list such as then tax exempt.

 

Then one is into appeals and it gets messy.

 

So caution is needed here - and I hope everyone pays close attention to this. 

However I did not fill in or sign any forms at all in the TRD office, which means that I do not have a TIN.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Great find!

 

From 28:00-30:30 they confirmed that if your remittances are not assessable, you don't need a TIN and you don't need to file.  If you remit assessable income over the threshold (60k), then you need to file a return, and may potentially owe tax.

 

At 31:30 they tell us that pensions are assessable if not excluded.  We know US social security is excluded, as are many government pensions, so check your DTA's, boys and girls. 

 

At 38:00 we're told we can take a tax credit on the tax form, but no detail given. ( Appears to be a miscommunication, unless someone can point out just how to take a foreign tax credit.)

 

So this confirms TRD is only interested in assessable income, no need to declare all remittances to include non-assessable income.

 

This is good news.

 

But who decides what is assessable and what is non-assessable income and what are they likely to be?

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But who decides what is assessable and what is non-assessable income and what are they likely to be?

 

Under the present system, the taxpayer determines which remittances are assessable according to the tax regulations.  Those that are assessable are included in the PIT calculations.  Those that are NOT assessable are NOT included in the PIT calculations.

 

Supporting documentation would be required if audited, but that doesn't seem to happen often.  I am aware of only two forum members subjected to audit; one was running a business in Thailand, the other was employed for years, quit the job and stopped filing returns.

 

No documentation normally needed if filing in person.  The clerk will ask source of remitted funds, you say "prior savings", clerk says "you no file."

[Guavaman]

21 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Supporting documentation would be required if audited, but that doesn't seem to happen often.

 

This is a significant issue in dealing with filing a tax return.

 

Reports from members who have filed online have said that no financial supporting documentation is required.

 

On the other hand, the RD handout being provided to foreign taxpayers in Item 3 instructs the taxpayer to "Please attach a copy of your bank statement."

 

With this, the RD will see incoming remittances into your bank accounts in Thailand, including both assessable income and income that is exempt from calculation of income tax, such as government pensions, social security, inheritances, etc. If this is done in person, the tax officer could screen out exempted assessable income items that have no place to be reported on a tax return.

 

[oldcpu]

13 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

 

This is a significant issue in dealing with filing a tax return.

 

Reports from members who have filed online have said that no financial supporting documentation is required.

 

On the other hand, the RD handout being provided to foreign taxpayers in Item 3 instructs the taxpayer to "Please attach a copy of your bank statement."

 

With this, the RD will see incoming remittances into your bank accounts in Thailand, including both assessable income and income that is exempt from calculation of income tax, such as government pensions, social security, inheritances, etc. If this is done in person, the tax officer could screen out exempted assessable income items that have no place to be reported on a tax return.

 

 

 

Just more paperwork IMHO.  As noted elsewhere in this forum, I won't be filing a Thai tax return for 2024 calendar/tax year per direction of a Thai RD official.

 

But if i did , to pass a Thai bank record, given my massive number of withdrawals, would be close to two dozen pages .  In the case of 2023 (if it were relevant which it is not) at most there would be 2 or 3 large remittances from outside of Thailand.  The other ~20 pages would be many many many local withdrawls for payments in Thailand (as I rarely use cash but almost always use bank transfer).  It would be a PIA for the RD to go through. 

 

I guess if it was me, I would mark up each page with a page number (if not already) and on first page note which pages had the few remittance to Thailand (via an edit) and then flag the remittances with a big red arrow (on the page where the few remittances were). The intent to make it easier for the RD to spot my legal tax free remittances.

 

It would  thou, as I noted,  be a big PIA for the RD official to dig through.

 

Brings to my mind a saying in regards to RD asking for this  .... "Be careful what you ask for".

.

[Jim Blue]

2 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

 

I could manage a small amount so I will use this Expat Thailand to get a TIN it costs 7,000bht which for me will be trouble free so dont mind the cost, all they want is a copy of your passport and visa.

My local tax office wanted documents from the UK in order to get a TIN, they said it can be difficult.

 

Cyclist what is the 7,000 baht fee for exactly ?

[NoDisplayName]

41 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

On the other hand, the RD handout being provided to foreign taxpayers in Item 3 instructs the taxpayer to "Please attach a copy of your bank statement."

 

I'm going to bet a bottle of fish sauce that they are asking for a copy of your bank interest withholding statement.  Won't know until someone files and reports here.

 

Filed online 2023, no documentation requested.  Refund refunded.

 

Filed online 2024, also no documentation needed to file and be approved.  But ten days later received a request for a bank withholding statement.  If I submit that, I get a refund.  If I do not submit the form, I don't get a refund.  Either way the return has been accepted and approved.  I assume I can just ignore it, and forego the refund with no repercussions, but wouldn't claim to know for certain.  I'll get a statement next time I'm downtown, still have a couple months to respond.