Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  It's even simpler than that. 

 

  If you have no assessable income (whether by DTA or LTR, whatever), you don't need to file a tax return because the TRD mandated threshold for filing is assessable income of 60K/120K/220K (reference previously quoted in this very thread.)

  

 

I agree with you - but I get the impression there is a view that global income (if remitted to Thailand ,even if tax exempt) is to be included in the determination if a tax return is needed.

 

That is not my view, where mine is such remitted foreign income (if exempt per DTA or LTA or por-161/162) is not to be included in the tax calculation, which means not included in the assessment if a tax return is needed.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Inheritances and gifts are tax exempted and not to be filed if under threshold.

 

Sure, if you go through other processes.

 

I am only talking about monthly payments, like pensions etc.

 

 

[JimGant]

30 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

Any foreign income after 01 Jan 2024 and remitted in 2024, is automatically assessable income, regardless of source.

That is so absurd that I'm finally convinced you have a maniacal chuckle when you post, knowing you're pulling our chains and driving us nuts.

[Expat68]

2 hours ago, grain said:

I agree entirely, this will come soon. Just one more requirement on the list. 

Agents will get around it.

Only the legit ones will get screwed

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

 

Trying to understand what you are pondering here , ...   I think, maybe you intended to say for the purpose of tax return determination?  but not for  exempt foreign income?

 

Relevant is not only Royal Decree-18 (which states)

 

Quote

Section 3 Taxes ... under the Revenue code shall be exempted for persons with agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into, or shall enter into with the government of foreign countries.

 

but also Royal Decree 743 which, in one place, states:

Quote

Section 5 Income tax under Part 2 of Chapter 3 in Title 2 of the Revenue Code shall be exempted for a foreigner categorized as Wealthy Global Citzen, Wealthy Pensioner, or Work-from-Thailand Professional who is granted a Long-Term-Resident visa under immigration law for assessable income under section 40 of the Revenue code derived in the previous tax year from an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and brought into Thailand.

 

Those are two cases of exempt foreign income.

[The Cyclist]

58 minutes ago, JimGant said:

That is so absurd that I'm finally convinced you have a maniacal chuckle when you post, knowing you're pulling our chains and driving us nuts.

 

Thai Tax Consultant 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNdXpvY1GQ

 

 

 

 

Go phone him and tell him he is wrong.

 

Please record the conversation and post it on here, so that we can all have a good chuckle as he rips you a new one.

 

[oldcpu]

58 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Thai Tax Consultant 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNdXpvY1GQ

 

 

 

Its a good video - but he does not cover in any sort of appropriate (clarifying) detail the aspects were are discussing/debating in this thread (re exempt income per royal decrees being tax exempt).

 

EDIT: Further, if you read the comments to that video similar discussions as to what we are seeing in AseanNow threads are taking place. That video clarifies nothing.

 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Its a good video - but he does not cover  the aspects were are discussing/debating in this thread (re exempt income per royal decrees being tax exempt).

 

The thread title is " Expats warned of new rules on overseas income "

 

I think he lays out the new rules quite clearly, in the aspects that he discusses.

 

Certainly regarding income earned from 01 Jan 2024 and then remitted in 2024.

 

I'm not getting into a discussions on possible semantics on different wording between DTA's / The Revenue Code / Royal Decrees.

 

You would need to seek specific Legal Advice on that.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'm not getting into a discussions on possible semantics on different wording between DTA's / The Revenue Code / Royal Decrees.

 

You would need to seek specific Legal Advice on that.

 

This is more than just semantics.

 

It is misleading people in regards to their tax obligations.  That is IMHO rather serious.

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

He works for Siam Legal. This is the same outfit I've seen advertise visas and extensions for double the going rate at a Pattaya Agency. 

 

Hey, that's not the outfit that clickbaits unsuspecting rubes to their website by masquerading as an official government institution, is it?

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

This is more than just semantics.

 

It is misleading people in regards to their tax obligations.  That is IMHO rather serious.

 

You can get all his details from the video

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNdXpvY1GQ

 

You best report him to the relevant authorities for misleading people.

[oldcpu]

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

You best report him to the relevant authorities for misleading people.

 

No - he is not misleadng. You are.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

No - he is not misleadng. Your are.

 

By posting a video from a Thai National, who is a registered Tax Consultant, and works for a rather large Thai Legal firm ?
 

That's some extrapolation you have going on there.

 

 

 

[oldcpu]

19 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

You best report him to the relevant authorities for misleading people.

 Re: your misleading:

 

Since Royal Decree 18 came out, making it clear that there are cases where foreign income is tax exempt per the Thai revenue code , there to the best of my knowledge (and clearly since year 2017) been no place in the Thai tax return forms, under exemptions, to list exempt income that are exempt per the DTA/Royal Decree combination.

 

Why do you believe that is?  Do you think for almost 1/2 century the Thai revenue department has made a mistake in their exemptions list?

 

You have failed to address that. Totally failed.

 

Further you incorrectly claim the only foreign remited income that is tax exempt is that pre-1-Jan-2024. Again  - you are misleading.

 

Or perhaps are you finally willing to admit, that income that is noted as exempt in a  Royal Decree (when referencing the DTAs) is not to be considered assessable income.

 

Further ,  if it is not to be considered assessable income, then it does not come into the calculation for whether a Thai tax return is needed.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

Since Royal Decree 18 came out, making it clear that there are cases where foreign income is tax exempt per the Thai revenue code , there to the best of my knowledge (and clearly since year 2017) been no place in the Thai tax return forms, under exemptions, to list exempt income that are exempt per the DTA/Royal Decree combination.

 

Take your Royal Decree issue up with a certified, qualified and Licensed Tax Accountant.

 

[oldcpu]

9 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Take your Royal Decree issue up with a certified, qualified and Licensed Tax Accountant.

 

 

NO. i am taking it up with you for misleading.

 

If you wish to continue with your misleading statements, you should take such up FIRST with certified, qualified and Licensed Tax Accountant. ... and ONLY then noting a solid reference (and not a video which does not cover that which is under discussion) post such  views.

 

As it is you are a disruption to some who are trying to understand their legal tax obligations in Thailand.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

As it is you are a disruption to some who are trying to understand their legal tax obligations in Thailand.

 

I'm not convinced that you are trying to find out anything.

 

After all, you have, according to you.

 

Your fancy Visa.

 

You have Royal Decree  No 18

 

You are covered to the max, yet here you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

Me ? I remit my UK Government Pension on a monthly basis ( Which the UK has exclusive taxation rights )

 

Which I was previously advised that I did not have to file.

 

Yet according to this Thai National, who is a registered Tax Consultant, and works for a large Legal Firm, Is now telling me that I do need to file.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNdXpvY1GQ

 

The Revenue Office also told me that I needed to file.

 

So you do whatever you feel the need to do. I'll do what ever I need to do to stay on the correct side of the Thai taxman.

 

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

Any foreign income after 01 Jan 2024 and remitted in 2024, is automatically assessable income, regardless of source.

 

Tax residents require to file a tax return if that income exceeds the 60 / 120 / 220k assessable limit.

 

Which then brings in DTA's

 

It will then be exempt Thai taxation, due to Country X, Y or Z having exclusive taxation rights.

 

Or Tax Credits will be applied, to ensure that double taxation does not take place.

 

Certain Thai visa's quite possibly also exempt people from paying tax on overseas income

 

Please relate YOUR experience of filing a tax return declaring ALL remittances, YOUR experience deducting income deemed non-assessable by DTA or royal decree or Thai tax regulation on YOUR Thai tax return, and YOUR experience claiming a foreign tax credit on YOUR Thai t.........

 

Oh, wait.  This is all speculation.

 

You haven't filed a Thai tax return.

 

You haven't declared assessable AND non-assessable remittances on a Thai tax return.

 

You haven't deducted non-assessable remittances on a Thai tax return.

 

You haven't claimed a foreign tax credit on a Thai tax return.

 

You HAVE posted misinformation, though, so I guess that counts as something.

[oldcpu]

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'm not convinced that you are trying to find out anything.

 

After all, you have, according to you.

 

Your fancy Visa.

 

You have Royal Decree  No 18

 

You are covered to the max, yet here you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

I am not posting here only for myself - but I do have expat friends not as fortunate as myself, who are trying to sort their requirements.

 

Misleading advice does not help them.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Me ? I remit my UK Government Pension on a monthly basis ( Which the UK has exclusive taxation rights )

 

Which I was previously advised that I did not have to file.

 

Yet according to this Thai National, who is a registered Tax Consultant, and works for a large Legal Firm, Is now telling me that I do need to file.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNdXpvY1GQ

 

The Revenue Office also told me that I needed to file.

 

So you do whatever you feel the need to do. I'll do what ever I need to do to stay on the correct side of the Thai taxman.

 

 

Do what is best for you.  And please, share your experiences as I hope those in similar situations can benefit from your experience.

 

But please, don't extrapolate and claim only pre-1-Jan-2024 income is tax exempt. I think we both know that is wrong.

 

Please don't ignore the fact that there is no place in any Thai tax form to list income (in an exemption list) that a particular DTA may note is exclusively taxable in the foreign source country (which Royal Decree 18 defines as being exempt income).   And please ask why would there be no place in a Thai tax form for 50 years to list such exempt income in an exemption list?

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Take your Royal Decree issue up with a certified, qualified and Licensed Tax Accountant.

 

 

Take YOUR non-assessable income, declare it on a Thai tax return and submit it to your local TRD office.

[NoDisplayName]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Yet according to this Thai National, who is a registered Tax Consultant, and works for a large Legal Firm, Is now telling me that I do need to file.

 

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

The Revenue Office also told me that I needed to file.

 

Have you filed?

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I am not posting here for myself - but I do have expat friends not as fortunate as myself, who are trying to sort their requirements.

 

Right, so this wasnt you

 

Quote

The RD 743 is clear the LTR foreign income is non-taxable (for LTR visa holders), but it is not clear from what I can read that income tax returns are not required.

 

Quote

If it specifically states exempt from 'income tax returns' (and not just 'income tax') I would like to read such as I must have missed such clear statement (and I looked). 

 

I think you have answered your own questions.

 

1. Exempt from income tax,

 

2. Not exempt from filing tax returns.

 

I think you really do need to seek professional, legal advice.

 

Which is where I think ( IMO ) most of us will be. An obligation to file, because of Tax Residency, but with no tax obligation.

[Sir Dude]

Simple really, get a tax number, file a return that excludes what is covered by DTAs and see what happens... they will believe it or not. Not having a TIN and not filing a return may raise red flags, but filing one should let you fly low under the radar. It's very hard to monitor the millions of small transactions and ATM withdrawals that happen every day... and they have to monitor the Thais who these new rules are really for.

If you want to bring in a large amount of money for something to purchase like a condo, big living money, or nice car etc., then just suck it up for one year and not be a tax resident, and bring it in during that year whilst visiting friends or family wherever/work in your home country, then become a tax resident the next year in Thailand and carry on as normal... ta-da, no tax on what you bring in.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Right, so this wasnt you

 

 

 

I think you have answered your own questions.

 

1. Exempt from income tax,

 

2. Not exempt from filing tax returns.

 

I think you really do need to seek professional, legal advice.

 

Which is where I think ( IMO ) most of us will be. An obligation to file, because of Tax Residency, but with no tax obligation.

 

Best wishes in your tax submission.

 

For anyone else reading such - Be VERY careful in believing what Cyclist assesses.

 

He makes mistakes in his posts and refuses to admit such.

 

He claimed the only exempt foreign remitted income is that from before 1-Jan-2024.  He refuses to admit his mistake.

 

He refuses to admit that income noted in a DTA that is exclusively taxable by the source country is tax exempt, despite what a Royal Decree states.  He thinks he knows more than those who post the Royal Decrees, I guess.

 

He has no explanation as to why there is no place in any Thai tax form going back to 2017 (and likely going back to 1969) has any place to list exempt income (which the Royal Decree 18 notes there is such exempt income).  Exempt foreign income that Cyclist denies exists (as Cyclist claims the only exempt  income is that from before 1-Jan-2024).

 

Consider such very carefully if you wish to follow his views.

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Simple really, get a tax number, file a return that excludes what is covered by DTAs and see what happens... they will believe it or not. Not having a TIN and not filing a return may raise red flags, but filing one should let you fly low under the radar. It's very hard to monitor the millions of small transactions and ATM withdrawals that happen every day... and they have to monitor the Thais who these new rules are really for.

 

I agree with that.  Some of us (myself for example) went that approach and were told by the RD, we don't qualify for a TIN. They out right refused to give us a TIN, despite being into Thailand for >180 tax year days.  Of course there are specific details here, which is why everyone should consider their specific details. Some should indeed get a tax ID given their financial situation.

 

4 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

If you want to bring in a large amount of money for something to purchase like a condo, big living money, or nice car etc., then just suck it up for one year and not be a tax resident, and bring it in during that year whilst visiting friends or family wherever/work in your home country, then become a tax resident the next year in Thailand and carry on as normal... ta-da, no tax on what you bring in.

 

IMHO - good advice.

[oldcpu]

26 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Right, so this wasnt you

 

 

I think I recall those posts of mine.

 

They were at the very start, when I first started looking into this.

 

I subsequently learned and revised my view that exempt income qualifies as exempt for tax calculation ....  which means it does NOT go in a Tax return form (especially if there is no place for a tax form) and further it doesn't contribute to one's assessable income addition in trying to decide if one should submit a tax return.

 

Why did I shift my view there?  Because I saw PID.95 , which states income tax area for the LTR Visa Highly skilled professional in both the year 2023 and year 2024 Thai tax forms (Thai language), and in the year 2023 Thai tax form (English language).

 

So clearly the Revenue Department knew of the LTR visa as in regards to the LTR-HSP visa there are entry fields in the Thai tax form for that visa.

 

But how about the LTR-Wealthy Pensioner (WP), LTR-Wealthy Global Citizen (WGC), and LTR-Work From Thailand Professional (WFTP)? 

 

There is no entry in the tax form for their exemptions. Why ? The only logical explanation is such income is not only exempt for the purpose of a tax calculation, but also it should not be considered as assessable income.

 

It became very clear then, I was most likely too paranoid about a tax return being needed. So I re-evaluated and corrected my view.

 

Correcting one's view?  That is something I believe you need to do.

 

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I think I recall those posts.

 

They were at the very start, when I first started looking into this.

 

They were made 2 weeks ago, here

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1265383-ltr-visa-is-now-available-for-long-term-residency/page/89/#comment-18611885

 

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Correcting one's view?  That is something I believe you need to do.

 

I have. I previously believed that I did not need to file a tax return on my UK Government Pension.

 

I have since corrected my view, based on information by a Thai National, who also happens to be a Tax Consultant, working for a large Legal Firm.

 

I have also been informed by my Revenue Office that I need to file a tax return.

 

I have all the relevant paperwork gathered, awaiting updated paperwork, or failing that, in March I will take myself back to the Revenue office, complete with paperwork, my trusty interuptor, and file a tax return.

 

In the meantime, there might be a further announcement from the headsheds at the RD Department, but I dont think there will be.

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

They were made 2 weeks ago, here

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1265383-ltr-visa-is-now-available-for-long-term-residency/page/89/#comment-18611885

 

If you read that post, you likely can sense my uncertainty then.

 

And not long after that I discovered/gave more thought to PID-95.

 

And I realized my paranoia  on this .  And I updated my view.

 

Something I believe you need to do.

 

If I have any recommendation for you is:

 

(a) do not include any civil service pension nor military pension in your Thai tax return if it is exclusively taxed in the UK (with no provision for Thailand to tax )  ... why ?? Because if such is exclusively taxed in the UK then there is no place in the Thai tax form to deduct such.  However IF you have other income  that is not tax exempt than DO INCLUDE such income,  or if Thailand also allowed to tax your Military or Civil UK pension then do include such pensions.  I don't know the ins/outs of the UK-Thai DTA.

 

and

 

(b) in posting, stick with matters re: UK tax (which I believe is your case) as your extrapolations are misleading in regards to other forum members who have a differnt financial situation.

 

[The Cyclist]

18 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

And I realized my paranoia  on this .  And I updated my view.

 

Something I believe you need to do.

 

Did you not read this part ?
 

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I have. I previously believed that I did not need to file a tax return on my UK Government Pension.

 

I have since corrected my view, based on information by a Thai National, who also happens to be a Tax Consultant, working for a large Legal Firm.

 

I have also been informed by my Revenue Office that I need to file a tax return.

 

Where did this come from ? Have you got a link to that ?
 

18 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

(a) do not include any civil service pension nor military pension in your Thai tax return if it is exclusively taxed in the UK

 

Because I believe that the Tax Consultant, from Siam Legal, completely destroys that myth.

 

Although to be fair, he uses US Social Security ( And not UK Government Pensions ) as his example.

 

However, the same principle must apply to all sources of income that come under the  Exclusive Taxation Rights clause.

 

Providing one is a tax resident, and the money is dispersed and remitted from the 01 Jan 2024.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Where did this come from ? Have you got a link to that ?
 

 

 

 You are quoting yourself there.