Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[scottiejohn]

14 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Good thing you posted this again I almost forgot from the last 10 times you posted this..

Only 10 times?

[oldcpu]

37 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Most pensions from around the world go over the Thailand tax threshold. 

 

True IMHO. However there is more to this than just the monetary amount. The foreign income remitted must also be assessable income, where in addition to the Thai tax code, there are also Royal Decrees, DTAs. and Ministerial directives that affect the determination of assessable income.

 

37 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It goes back to the debate, how does the TRD know your income is not assessable unless you prove to them it is not? 

 

Thailand relies on self assessment. RD officials have stated that many times.  .. That is not to say one won't be audited if the RD suspects one is not reporting all assessable income properly .

 

37 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but I'm sure it's not going to be as easy as saying "my remittances is non assessable income."

 

Thailand has been doing just that for over 50 years. So do you believe that this will stop now?

 

I guess we will see.

 

Note: I believe that Thailand law should be followed in regards to income tax filing. The discussions some of us tend to be having is along the lines of precisely defining that assessable income given there is foreign remitted income that is exempt from Thailand taxation calculation. 

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, there are 29 exemption listed in the Revenue Code, they are listed at Section 42, here

 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Good luck trying to shoehorn them into your annual tax return

Yep.

 

And those are not the only ones.

[KhunHeineken]

36 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

The Thai government relies on self assessment. 

Agree, but Thai citizens don't need a visa to live in Thailand, foreigners do. 

 

36 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

There is no requirement at present for a tax certificate for immigration for extension of stay in Thailand purposes. OK? Clear? Whether there will be in the future is speculation at this stage.

Agree. 

 

Is it soooo left field to think they will not implement a TRD document being required for an extension? 

 

I mean, a couple of examples are, many people said cannabis would never be legalized, yet it was.  Many people said Thaksin would never be back, but here he is.

 

Would it surprise you if a TRD certificate was needed by immigration in the future?   

 

36 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

What we do know now is Thai tax law, Royal Decrees, Ministerial directives,  and Double Tax Agreements betweenThailand and 61 countries ( where every DTA is different) .. and for those wondering about immigration there are also current immigration requirements. Current requirements. Current. ...

Not speculative future requirements of AseanNow posters. Current requirements. 

Agree.

 

I have always said it was my "prediction."  I ca not provide a link. 

 

Once again, is it soooo left field to consider they will not make it a requirement at extension time?

 

36 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

One should follow Thailand law in regards to tax, and that may or may not mean a Thai tax return is needed depending on each person's financial situation.

Nah, they are NEVER going to ask, and if they EVER do, just tell them all your remittances is from non assessble income. 

 

They have ZERO in place to combat this loop hole, and that's because they never thought anyone would do such a thing. 

 

I've always said the Thai's must have something up their sleeve in relation to compliance by foreigners.  They just haven't revealed it yet. 

[Ben Zioner]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but I'm sure it's not going to be as easy as saying "my remittances is non assessable income."

If I was called in for the 100k USD I remitted on Jan 3, 2024 I'd show ,y passport with a valid LTR visa (possibly I'd have RD743 in Thai with me), and/or give them statements showing that the remitted funds were on my account on Dec 31, 2023.

 

So how long would that take? What could happen, a demand to file a return and a 2000 Baht fine? Big deal, I'll wait until next year to see how this unfolds.

 

[KhunHeineken]

35 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

And the RD official noted there were exemptions in defining foreign assessable income.

 

Nailed that there are exemptions affecting assessable income. 

 

He also said there can be "big trouble" for not paying tax.  His words, not mine.   

[KhunHeineken]

35 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Assessable remitted income.

 

That is important.  Not all foreign remitted income is assessable. 

How will they know that, in a "self assessment" system? 

 

As posted, foreigners are not Somchai up in the village.  We have to remain legal here, or we are out. 

[SHA 2 BKK]

13 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What Aussie pension are you on?

 

They won't "come calling." 

 

You will redirected to a TRD office at extension time. 

 

Fair enough.

 

Not everyone is living in Thailand on a meager pension. 

I have a Government Service Lifetime Pension that is specifically mentioned in the Australian Thai DTA and is only assessable in Australia. 
 

Why will I be redirected to the TRD at time of next 5 year LTR stamp?   Who will direct me there?  BOI who have told me my income is tax exempt?    Please elaborate?  
 

As the Tax Officials and Carl Turner noted in the video posted earlier this morning there is simply no need to get a TIN and lodge a return if there is no “assessable income”.  As I noted in my post which you question: 

 

1. My remittances are from pre 2024 savings (bank statements printed and readily accessible online for the next 10 years). 
 

2.  My Government Service Pension is specifically mentioned in the Australian Thai DTA as not being assessable in Thailand.  
 

3.  I held an LTR Visa for the period which according to Royal Decree 743 excludes remitted income from taxation.  
 

So cobber I’m pretty comfortable in not wasting mine and the Thai RDs time. 
 

Everyone however is different including your good self.  
 

PS if you do own 10 rental properties outside of Thailand might pay you to do some research on the LTR Visa.  Might save you a quid.  

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

Nah, they are NEVER going to ask, and if they EVER do, just tell them all your remittances is from non assessble income. 

 

 

I recommend people tell the truth. If one is required to file a tax return, then file it.

 

But don't go file a tax return when not needed, because one was bamboozled by a paranoid poster who ignores RoyalDecrees, ignores Ministerial Directives,  and ignores DTAs. Those documents too need to be considered. 

 

But if one is lazy to read such, then go to one's local RD office, with all one's financial info, with a copy of the relevant Royal Decree, the relevant DTA ( highlighting relevant section governing one's foreign income) and let them decide. Note there are 61 different DTAs, so don't just show up without the DTA and expect the RD official to know the answers off of the top of their head.

[KhunHeineken]

34 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This mornings video was quite clear. As a Tax resident, remit income after the 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income, if it falls below the 120 / 220k baht, there is no need to file ( As per a normal Thai )

 

Over that amount, supply your evidence, and it wont be taxed, or a tax credit applied.

 

It even gives you a big hint, A bank statement will prove your remitted income is pre 01 Jan 2024 savings, and will not be taxed.

That's the way it appears to me, OR, remit as much as you want, but only stay in Thailand 179 days. 

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

He also said there can be "big trouble" for not paying tax.  His words, not mine.   

Why are you quoting me?

 

I have aways believed tax should be paid where required to be paid.

[KhunHeineken]

51 minutes ago, ukrules said:

It's a valid and potentially useful video which covers the same old stuff we've seen a hundred time before though.

That's the way I saw it, particularly as it had one of the senior advisers from the TRD on the panel. 

 

Did you see the part where he said there would be "big trouble" for not paying tax?  If you did, do you think it would be better to file and declare, even if you know you have no tax to pay, than to do nothing, so you at least have proof of doing the right thing, thus being completely legal here? 

[Dogmatix]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:39 PM, stubuzz said:

If you transfered money to buy proerty, would this be taxed?

 

If the money remitted to buy a condo was earned after 31 December 2023 and you don't have a the appropriate LTR visa for tax exemption, the answer is yes.  Otherwise no. 

 

Despite the fact that the PM at the time was a condo developer, the government didn't think to make any exemption for money remitted to buy property.  Duh!  Similar exemptions to investment in Thai stocks, private businesses or Thai bonds might have been a good idea too.  But this was clearly not thought through by the government.  In fact they were not even involved.  There was no amendment to the Revenue code that would have had to go through parliament and no ministerial regulation that would have been approved by the finance minister.  They just allowed the director general of the Revenue Department to issue a departmental order which is only binding on Revenue Department staff, not on taxpayers.  A few days after signing the order, he vacated the position. So the badly thought out order was his parting shot for Thai taxpayers and expats.

 

This situation is the type of mess that results from government not doing its job and just allowing bureaucrats to do what they want without any parliamentary scrutiny or public scrutiny.  

[KhunHeineken]

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I have aways believed tax should be paid where required to be paid.

It goes back to the old debate, how does the TRD know you are not required to file when they don't know the amount and source of one's income. 

 

This debate is at a stalemate. 

 

Some say, "my income is not assessable, so I do not need to file" and some say, "how does the TRD know your income is not assessable if you don't file and inform them?" 

 

There's no right or wrong answer.  I can see both sides. 

 

We will soon all get to see how it unfolds. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

That's the way I saw it, particularly as it had one of the senior advisers from the TRD on the panel. 

 

Did you see the part where he said there would be "big trouble" for not paying tax?  If you did, do you think it would be better to file and declare, even if you know you have no tax to pay, than to do nothing, so you at least have proof of doing the right think, thus being completely legal here? 

My thinking is that if your case would be very complicated and difficult to prove if audited, then maybe be defensive and file when you shouldn't need to. But if you know you'll have the records and that it will be elementary to prove that you didn't need to file (or pay tax) then I wouldn't get a TIN or file. I have the latter situation for now.

[KhunHeineken]

26 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

So how long would that take? What could happen, a demand to file a return and a 2000 Baht fine? Big deal, I'll wait until next year to see how this unfolds.

Exactly. 

 

My point being that you had to go through the process.  Get it? 

[Jingthing]

I will add one of the TIN pushing to f-rangs firms which shall remain unnamed is employing scaremongering rhetoric to push people to file (using their expensive services of course) who don't need to file or pay tax defensively. Their line is if you don't file in that situation years later if audited (which they seem to color as more likely than not) it will cost you MUCHO MUCHO DINERO to handle that (presumably with their massively costly assistance), so much cheaper to file defensively.

Well to that I say, I've quite skeptical about that.

If your case is simple such as showing money in the bank on December 31, 2023 or showing the source bank accounts as exempt social security, why in heck would you need to shell out for any help at all (if you plan on keeping records going back years). Or perhaps you might need just to bring in a translator if language is an issue.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This mornings video was quite clear. As a Tax resident, remit income after the 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income, if it falls below the 120 / 220k baht, there is no need to file ( As per a normal Thai )

 

Over that amount, supply your evidence, and it wont be taxed, or a tax credit applied.

 

It even gives you a big hint, A bank statement will prove your remitted income is pre 01 Jan 2024 savings, and will not be taxed.

 

The threshold to file a tax return is 120k for income from employment and 60k for income from other sources.  The RD considers pension income as income from employments AFAIK.  

 

It used to be that there was no need to file a tax return, if your income minus deductions below the taxable threshold which is currently 150 but the Prayut government amended the law to require tax returns from those over the 120k/60k thresholds even though they have no tax to pay.  The idea is to try to trap people into the system when they not earning enough to pay tax and don't mind getting in so much and keep them in once they are earning more.  They also added an inducement that would pay welfare to low income earners who file for tax but never have.  I don't think this system has been at all effective.  Most Thais don't realise they have to file for tax when they don't earn enough to pay it.  The fine for not filing is 2k per year but not enforced on low income earners because it would be a lot of work and expense to round them up and take them to court for small fines and it would create a horrible political backlash to fine poor people for not filing when the supposed benefits for filing have never been delivered to them. 

 

BTW the Revenue Code is nationality blind.  So all tax provisions apply equally to Thais and foreigners.

[KhunHeineken]

24 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

I have a Government Service Lifetime Pension that is specifically mentioned in the Australian Thai DTA and is only assessable in Australia. 

This pension is covered by the DTA.

 

For the benefit of other Aussie members, the old age pension is not covered by the DTA.

 

25 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Why will I be redirected to the TRD at time of next 5 year LTR stamp?   Who will direct me there?  BOI who have told me my income is tax exempt?    Please elaborate?  

Everyone's circumstance are different. 

 

Not everyone has a LTR.  I am speaking in general. 

 

People MAY be redirected to a TRD office because whilst you know you receive a government service pension, and it is covered by the DTA, the TRD does not.   All they see in the money remitted, not the source. 

 

If you think they do, perhaps you can post how you think they know you are on a government service pension.

 

30 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

So cobber I’m pretty comfortable in not wasting mine and the Thai RDs time. 
 

Everyone however is different including your good self.  

Good Luck with doing NOTHING about any of it.  I'm sure NOTHING will come back to bite you, EVER. 

 

31 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

PS if you do own 10 rental properties outside of Thailand might pay you to do some research on the LTR Visa.  Might save you a quid.  

I use ten rental properties for example purposes.  It could be shares, bank interest, superannuation, owning a business in one's home country etc. 

[KhunHeineken]

30 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I recommend people tell the truth. If one is required to file a tax return, then file it.

Why tell the truth if there is NOTHING in place to confirm the truth, unless..................................................   

 

31 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

But don't go file a tax return when not needed, because one was bamboozled by a paranoid poster who ignores RoyalDecrees, ignores Ministerial Directives,  and ignores DTAs. Those documents too need to be considered. 

Or, because a junior staff member of the TRD said no need to file. 

 

32 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

But if one is lazy to read such, then go to one's local RD office, with all one's financial info, with a copy of the relevant Royal Decree, the relevant DTA ( highlighting relevant section governing one's foreign income) and let them decide. Note there are 61 different DTAs, so don't just show up without the DTA and expect the RD official to know the answers off of the top of their head.

Be sure to record the meeting. 

[KhunHeineken]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My thinking is that if your case would be very complicated and difficult to prove if audited, then maybe be defensive and file when you shouldn't need to. But if you know you'll have the records and that it will be elementary to prove that you didn't need to file (or pay tax) then I wouldn't get a TIN or file. I have the latter situation for now.

I like the terminology you used, "be defensive." 

 

I don't trust the Thai government, and I don't trust people who work in Thai government departments, particularly Thai police.  I don't think I am alone. 

 

I will be defensive.  I will file and declare.  For me, it's not only that I have filed, but I need to be seen to have filed, and need proof that I have filed, to have some certainty about this tax policy.  I am prepared to pay, up to a certain amount. for this piece of mind. 

 

I really do think there are more chapters to this book, and it will just be the gift that keeps giving, but file, declare, pay or no pay, have a document showing such, and you are done with it.  

 

Call it defensive, but it will work for me.  I understand others do not hold the same view, and that's fine. 

 

I wish everyone good luck with dealing with this tax policy, and how it relates to their individual circumstances. 

[Dogmatix]

23 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

That's the way I saw it, particularly as it had one of the senior advisers from the TRD on the panel. 

 

Did you see the part where he said there would be "big trouble" for not paying tax?  If you did, do you think it would be better to file and declare, even if you know you have no tax to pay, than to do nothing, so you at least have proof of doing the right think, thus being completely legal here? 

 

You will probably be in big trouble if you file showing non-assessable income from remittances earned before 2024 or DTA exempt pensions. That will just invite them to summon for a grilling with all supporting documents which they may or may not be able to understand.  They may ask for notarized versions and god knows what.  They are used to the Thai system where a taxpayer can waltz into a tax office without an appointment and get certified copies of tax returns which implies tax paid. They are also used to Thai systems of contract notes and dividend statements which have to be sent in hard copy.  Some online brokers don't provide formal contract notes.  There is also the problem of varying tax years, so that expats will yet not have overeas tax returns covering some remitted income.  

 

The worst situation with the RD is being caught not filing when there was a lot of tax to pay.  If there is no tax to pay, you can be fined 2k a year but, in practice they don't enforce this law on those who have no tax to pay.

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

The threshold to file a tax return is 120k for income from employment and 60k for income from other sources.  The RD considers pension income as income from employments AFAIK.  

 

Yep

 

Section 40 of the Revenue Code, which was highlighted in this mornings video.

 

14 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

BTW the Revenue Code is nationality blind.  So all tax provisions apply equally to Thais and foreigners.

 

Mentioned in the very 1st segment of this mornings video, applies to both Thias and foreign tax residents.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Dogmatix said:

You will probably be in big trouble if you file showing non-assessable income from remittances earned before 2024 or DTA exempt pensions.

 

My low level RD employee told me that I did have to file my DTA exempt pension, only 3 weeks ago today.

 

Even completed a draft PND 91 to use as a template for filing.

[KhunHeineken]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If your case is simple such as showing money in the bank on December 31, 2023 or showing the source bank accounts as exempt social security, why in heck would you need to shell out for any help at all (if you plan on keeping records going back years). Or perhaps you might need just to bring in a translator if language is an issue.

Maybe because not everyone is living here on pre 2024 savings, and their fortnightly / monthly social security payments are not covered by a DTA.

 

Example:  the Australian old age pension is not covered by a DTA. 

 

Do you have any advice for the thousands of Aussie old aged pensioners living fortnight to fortnight in Thailand on their pension? 

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I will be defensive.  I will file and declare.  For me, it's not only that I have filed, but I need to be seen to have filed, and need proof that I have filed, to have some certainty about this tax policy.  I am prepared to pay, up to a certain amount. for this piece of mind. 

 

Bingo

 

Even though I know 120% that my UK Government Pension is not taxable in Thailand.

 

2 Agencies I am going to go out of my way not to upset, Immigration and The RD.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

My low level RD employee told me that I did have to file my DTA exempt pension, only 3 weeks ago today.

 

Even completed a draft PND 91 to use as a template for filing.

 

Based on your original description of the occurrence it appears the person made a mistake,  changed things, but tried not to lose face so it's possible in the view of some is that said individual was still wrong.

[Neeranam]

58 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Is it soooo left field to think they will not implement a TRD document being required for an extension? 

As they are not going after foreigners, they are more like to make all Thais show such a document.

 

Not going to happen, completely different departments. Granted, some clever rogue Immigration police officers might see a chance to milk some farang with "mug' written on their forehead .

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

Based on your original description of the occurrence it appears the person made a mistake,  changed things, but tried not to lose face so it's possible in the view of some is that said individual was still wrong.

 

Based on today's video. Tax Resident, remit income from 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income.

 

2 things happen with assessable income

 

1. Below 120k Baht, no need to file a tax return.

 

2. Above 120k baht, required to file a tax return.

 

The UK - Thai DTA will prove that my Pension is not subject to Thai taxation.

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

As they are not going after foreigners, they are more like to make all Thais show such a document.

Thai's don't need a visa to live in Thailand. 

 

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Not going to happen, completely different departments.

A Thai bank isn't even a government department, but you need a document from your Thai bank at extension time. 

 

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Granted, some clever rogue Immigration police officers might see a chance to milk some farang

Or, a clever TRD sees it as and easy, cheap, and effective method to force foreigners into a TRD office.