Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

My low level RD employee told me that I did have to file my DTA exempt pension, only 3 weeks ago today.

 

Even completed a draft PND 91 to use as a template for filing.

 

Your low level Pak Chong back of beyond TRD lady was wrong.

 

Simple as that, and was too embarrassed to admit it.

 

You din't file, so this is all speculation that you could file that return and have it approved.

 

Try it!

[NoDisplayName]

58 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Thai's don't need a visa to live in Thailand. 

 

Are you sure about that?

 

According to the handout from Chiang Mai TRD, foreign documents must be certified by the Thai embassy in Thailand.

 

Remember, we've been assured that TRD folks don't make misteaks.

[NoDisplayName]

43 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

If that's the case, why did I receive an email from Kasikorn bank, as did many others, and I have to go in there and sign some forms related to nationality and taxation?

 

THAT is the CRS boogerman some have been harping on about.

 

You are required to confirm your identity to your financial institution where you have an account, and to declare any other countries where you fall under their tax jurisdiction.

 

That's it.  Done.

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

 

If the money remitted to buy a condo was earned after 31 December 2023 and you don't have a the appropriate LTR visa for tax exemption, the answer is yes.  Otherwise no. 

 

Despite the fact that the PM at the time was a condo developer, the government didn't think to make any exemption for money remitted to buy property.  Duh!  Similar exemptions to investment in Thai stocks, private businesses or Thai bonds might have been a good idea too.  But this was clearly not thought through by the government.  In fact they were not even involved.  There was no amendment to the Revenue code that would have had to go through parliament and no ministerial regulation that would have been approved by the finance minister.  They just allowed the director general of the Revenue Department to issue a departmental order which is only binding on Revenue Department staff, not on taxpayers.  A few days after signing the order, he vacated the position. So the badly thought out order was his parting shot for Thai taxpayers and expats.

 

This situation is the type of mess that results from government not doing its job and just allowing bureaucrats to do what they want without any parliamentary scrutiny or public scrutiny.  

 

Well said.

 

I'm yet to see a single report of any foreigner, paying any tax, on any foreign remitted income. IMO, it's simply not happening, and the vast majority of 'expat' tax residents will not even file a return, if I had to guess, 90% +. 

 

The first case that's published of anyone paying tax on their funds transferred to buy a house or condo, will be very newsworthy.

 

There must have been thousands of foreigners who did exactly this, using 'technically assessable' income, sometime in 2024. 

 

How come we haven't heard of a single case on here? Did no one buy a home / condo / even a car last year? Where's the reports of someone trying to declare the gain on the sale of property ( or other investments)  sold overseas, remitted to buy property in Thailand? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

But, some of us can use our own power of reasoning, interpret Por 162 literally, and submerge our IRA income under Por 162 auspices. Where your logic is coming from, if anywhere, is curious....

 

You seem to know your way around the tax code.  Could you consider this.....

 

What happens when I withdraw $10K Roth IRA in 2024?  It's not taxable by the US, and isn't covered by the DTA.  If I remit to Thailand, it would likely be considered assessable.  (Not getting into separating gains from original capital at this point.)  If I do not remit, then not assessable.

 

I can move that $10K to a separate account, invest that in $10K of xyz fund.

 

In 2025 (366 days later), I sell my entire holding of xyz fund for $11,000.  Uncle Sam says I've earned $1K in long term gains, which I will claim on my 1040 and pay the appropriate tax.  I now have $10K of original capital and $1K of gains sitting in its own private separate account.

 

What happens when I remit that to Thailand in 2026?  It no longer has any relation to the Roth IRA from the year prior.  Uncle Sam has just taxed my capital gains.  It's now just $11K cash in my account, $1K of which is current year income, with a potential foreign tax credit to claim against whatever Thai tax I pay on bringing in $1K of assessable income.

 

My 2025 1040 shows a fund sale, with tax paid on $1K long term gains (I waited 366 days before selling).

[Neeranam]

If one gets a pension of $4,000 a month for example and sends gifts of $500 to wife, 3 kids, and $500 salary to maid, driver and 2 gardeners' bank accounts, does one need to file a tax return?

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You seem to know your way around the tax code.  Could you consider this.....

 

What happens when I withdraw $10K Roth IRA in 2024?  It's not taxable by the US, and isn't covered by the DTA.  If I remit to Thailand, it would likely be considered assessable.  (Not getting into separating gains from original capital at this point.)  If I do not remit, then not assessable.

 

I can move that $10K to a separate account, invest that in $10K of xyz fund.

 

In 2025 (366 days later), I sell my entire holding of xyz fund for $11,000.  Uncle Sam says I've earned $1K in long term gains, which I will claim on my 1040 and pay the appropriate tax.  I now have $10K of original capital and $1K of gains sitting in its own private separate account.

 

What happens when I remit that to Thailand in 2026?  It no longer has any relation to the Roth IRA from the year prior.  Uncle Sam has just taxed my capital gains.  It's now just $11K cash in my account, $1K of which is current year income, with a potential foreign tax credit to claim against whatever Thai tax I pay on bringing in $1K of assessable income.

 

My 2025 1040 shows a fund sale, with tax paid on $1K long term gains (I waited 366 days before selling).

I think that's an excellent question.

I'm far from an expert but it seems to me that what you're suggesting might work.

Why does it need to be LONG TERM gains?

Why not a few days?

Answering that -- going fast would be easy to see an intention of evasion.

If it's an outside a retirement account chunk of money when remitted that's what it is, yeah?

BTW -- if you take a loss on that play, there is no tax in Thailand but you can't write off the loss in Thailand. 

What's the flaw?

Well, intention I guess.

If that's your pattern if they have info about that then it's an attempt at evasion I suppose.

But I don't see how what you do with your own money OUTSIDE of Thailand is any of their business at all.

Perhaps that idea is too good to be true. 

[0ffshore360]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

If one gets a pension of $4,000 a month for example and sends gifts of $500 to wife, 3 kids, and $500 salary to maid, driver and 2 gardeners' bank accounts, does one need to file a tax return?

My ignorant guess would be that if in the event of being challenged could you provide evidence of the funds of source being  taxed already/DTA

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

But don't go file a tax return when not needed, because one was bamboozled by a paranoid poster who ignores RoyalDecrees, ignores Ministerial Directives,  and ignores DTAs. Those documents too need to be considered. 

 

But if one is lazy to read such, then go to one's local RD office, with all one's financial info, with a copy of the relevant Royal Decree, the relevant DTA ( highlighting relevant section governing one's foreign income) and let them decide. Note there are 61 different DTAs, so don't just show up without the DTA and expect the RD official to know the answers off of the top of their head.

 Ah, music to my ears -- in this otherwise ludicrous thread. Thanx, old wise cpu.

[Robaht]

I’m keeping everything cash this year, what is the limit per entry in $ ($15k?) and I’m curious if there is a maximum $ amount per year you can personally carry in? Solves a lot of problems. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, 0ffshore360 said:

My ignorant guess would be that if in the event of being challenged could you provide evidence of the funds of source being  taxed already/DTA

 

I'm not retired yet but I suppose if challenged, yes... They are highly unlikely to investigate people with low incomes/gifts for education etc. and see that they are getting from the same person.

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, Robaht said:

I’m keeping everything cash this year, what is the limit per entry in $ ($15k?) and I’m curious if there is a maximum $ amount per year you can personally carry in? Solves a lot of problems. 

450,000 baht for each person you are with. It would save problems, a family of five could take in 2.25 million baht or 3.35 million baht if it's in USD. 

[NoDisplayName]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Why does it need to be LONG TERM gains?

Why not a few days?

 

If ever questioned, short term is under a year, long term is held longer than a year, and spans multiple tax filings...........much more complicated, much more work to track down what it is exactly.

 

Operating a remittance-based taxation system that spans years (or decades for retirement accounts) is crazy.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

That's not what I was talking about.

Obviously if you have remitted accessable income over the threshold, then you are required to file, so that's a matter of compliance. 
Filing when you know you don't need to is defensive.

 

The period they can audit you for changes depending on your history of filing.

I believe it can change from 5 years to 10 years max depending on how long you've been filing for. Not entirely sure how many years of filings are required - but I think it may be 5.

So 5 years of filing zero returns ends any possibility of older audits....in theory.

[anrcaccount]

27 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You seem to know your way around the tax code.  Could you consider this.....

 

What happens when I withdraw $10K Roth IRA in 2024?  It's not taxable by the US, and isn't covered by the DTA.  If I remit to Thailand, it would likely be considered assessable.  (Not getting into separating gains from original capital at this point.)  If I do not remit, then not assessable.

 

I can move that $10K to a separate account, invest that in $10K of xyz fund.

 

In 2025 (366 days later), I sell my entire holding of xyz fund for $11,000.  Uncle Sam says I've earned $1K in long term gains, which I will claim on my 1040 and pay the appropriate tax.  I now have $10K of original capital and $1K of gains sitting in its own private separate account.

 

What happens when I remit that to Thailand in 2026?  It no longer has any relation to the Roth IRA from the year prior.  Uncle Sam has just taxed my capital gains.  It's now just $11K cash in my account, $1K of which is current year income, with a potential foreign tax credit to claim against whatever Thai tax I pay on bringing in $1K of assessable income.

 

My 2025 1040 shows a fund sale, with tax paid on $1K long term gains (I waited 366 days before selling).

 

You don't need to be anywhere near that cunning/complex. Remittance taxation is a joke.

 

You can buy any asset from the proceeds of the IRA sale and then resell at cost, immediately, no need to wait a year, remit the proceeds, non-assessable/exempt. 

 

Wait, even better idea, straight from the mouths of the TRD, WATCHES are not taxable. ( you saw the video!) 

 

So, sell your $10K IRA, buy a $10K watch, sell the watch for $10K ( even $9.5k, take the hit) , remit, non-assessable/exempt!

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

It goes back to the old debate, how does the TRD know you are not required to file when they don't know the amount and source of one's income.

And they certainly don't have the resources -- nor would a cost/benefit analysis ever give them the resources -- to query every expat. Best they can do is, have random compliance audits, based on: expats here for over 180 days, and who have remittances exceeding some high amount. This they could probably do with relatively simple data mining of immigration and banks.

 

And, I wouldn't even hold my breath for this scenario. Self-assess with integrity -- and don't worry about your golf game being interupted by the TRD. Relax.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

If there is no tax to pay, you can be fined 2k a year but, in practice they don't enforce this law on those who have no tax to pay.

So, then -- why would anyone of sound mind waste their time, and shoe leather, to get a TIN -- and to file when no taxes owed, but their assessable income exceeded the 60/120/220k thresholds.....and, then, to subsequently now be on the TRD's radar....? Madness.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

37 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

The period they can audit you for changes depending on your history of filing.

I believe it can change from 5 years to 10 years max depending on how long you've been filing for. Not entirely sure how many years of filings are required - but I think it may be 5.

So 5 years of filing zero returns ends any possibility of older audits....in theory.

 

My understanding is that the RD can go back ten years for any year where a tax return is not filed. In other words, having the most recent five years worth of filed returns does not bar the RD from auditing years six through ten for years where no return was filed. But if one has filed for all ten prior years, the RD could only audit years one through five. Just my opinion, however.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Filing when you know you don't need to is defensive.

Given the uncertainty surrounding this whole tax policy, do you see a problem with being "defensive?" 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Sounds like some people in your countries government are very stupid.  These types of pensions are pretty basic in DTA.

Advice?  Get together and write letters to your government officials.

It's an old DTA from the 80's. 

 

Australia is in the process of renewing their DTA's with other countries, but it could take some time. 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Only if one dislikes the paperwork from a Thai tax return,

What's there to like about ANY paperwork in Thailand????

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I suspect that was for different reasons.

Or, the same reason, taxation. 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

You can use it to your advantage if you know which organizational structures they fall under. 

For example, Dept of Labour and Immigration rarely communicate, so you could leave a job and keep your visa until the end. 

My point, they don't interact like in other countries., 

Most on this forum are retired, as I am.  They couldn't care less about the Department of Labor.  

 

I've given examples of departments communicating with each other but you refuse to accept it happens. 

 

Not much more to discuss on the matter, is there? 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

To see if you are a Yank or not. 

Correct, but I opened the account with an Australian passport, and updated my ID when I got a new passport.  The bank/s are well aware I am not American.

 

Also, why only Kasikorn, why not all of the Thai banks? 

[NoDisplayName]

55 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

You can buy any asset from the proceeds of the IRA sale and then resell at cost, immediately, no need to wait a year, remit the proceeds, non-assessable/exempt.

 

I'd like a clean disconnect, with nothing from the IRA side affecting any other accounts. 

 

IRA withdrawal is done in 2024 solely under IRS rules.  Fund sales in 2025, from investment the previous year, and nothing remitted.  Remittance in 2026 has nothing for to point to in that year's 1040, and would have to go back to previous year showing nothing but individual account investment activity.

 

Seems perfectly legal under the current tax code.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

That seems to be about it.  Few reports, if any, of anyone being questioned on that and having to produce documentation.

So, that's it then. 

 

No need for any foreigners to file.

 

Mods, please close all the tax threads.  The conclusion is no foreigners have to file because the TRD have no way of knowing, or finding out, the "true" source of a foreigners income.  Actually, they can't even make foreigners file because it's a "self assessment" system.  

 

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Someone remitting a million baht every two months might somehow get on the TRD radar, and be questioned about their null tax return.

Pre 2024 savings.  No need to file.  Job done.  

 

Geez, the Thai's really dropped the ball on this one.  All that easy money sitting there for the taking and they have NOTHING in place to force foreigners to prove the source of their remittances. 

 

I wonder how long before they stop this simple loophole? 

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Correct, but I opened the account with an Australian passport, and updated my ID when I got a new passport.  The bank/s are well aware I am not American.

 

Also, why only Kasikorn, why not all of the Thai banks? 

 

As property of Uncle Sam, I've had to fill out IRS "know your customer" forms due to FATCA since forever.  You're just getting the same treatment. 

 

With Thailand, along with Kenya, implementing CRS, all new accounts will have to fill out CRS/FATCA paperwork, and all the banks will be going back through existing accounts to have account holders fill out the CRS papers.

 

Some sooner than later.  Not all the banks will be on the same schedule getting the CRS forms to their existing account holders.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

The way the game is currently played is the reverse.

 

How would TRD know you have assessable income unless you declare it?

The way the game is currently played is you are a farang, with no rights here. 

 

Why do you think farang will get such an easy free pass? 

[oldcpu]

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Or, the same reason, taxation. 

 

I believe there are CRS requirements that banks (Financial Institutions) have to provide ID information on their clients to CRS.  I may have details slightly incorrect , but I think this includes tax-ID and passport information.   And at some < I don't know exactly > intervals provide limited information on bank account sum amount to CRS on same individuals to CRS.  However NOT ALL bank accounts need information be provided - for example an individual's government regulated account information need not be provided to CRS (which for Canadian's means registered retirement funds such as RRSPs, RRIFS, ... plus some other Canadian registered (with government) savings funds). There is some sort of account reporting exemption for Thais also.

 

This is ultimately to detect tax evasion, but such information in itself probably does not help all that much.  Only if put together with other countries information might CRS start to get a picture.

 

There is massive exaggeration by some on this forum, claiming CRS over reach which doesn't exist. But I believe you know that.

 

If one is legal there is no worry here.

[oldcpu]

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, that's it then. 

 

No need for any foreigners to file.

 

Mods, please close all the tax threads.  The conclusion is no foreigners have to file because the TRD have no way of knowing, or finding out, the "true" source of a foreigners income.  Actually, they can't even make foreigners file because it's a "self assessment" system.  

 

lol ... Thats a joke, right?

 

I think think Banks are required to report certain deposit amounts to the Thai Revenue Department.  The RD can then decide if they wish to do something.

 

Its best everyone follow Thai tax law.

 

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Pre 2024 savings.  No need to file.  Job done.  

 

Geez, the Thai's really dropped the ball on this one.  All that easy money sitting there for the taking and they have NOTHING in place to force foreigners to prove the source of their remittances. 

 

I wonder how long before they stop this simple loophole? 

 

If the RD is suspicious (based on Thai bank information they are provided), they can call an audit, ask about tax returns if any or if none, ..   and compare the information they have received from Thai banks, with the records the foreigner can produce.

 

Its not rocket science, and it may not be perfect, but having an audit could be a major PIA.

 

Its best IMHO to follow Thai tax law.