Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Vast numbers of expats are not worried in the slightest....

Get a TIN, file, pay or no pay tax, get a certificate of clearance from the TRD, and rest easy. 

 

Doing nothing is what may cause problems down the track. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 1/29/2025 at 2:42 PM, Guavaman said:

I was testing to see if the advice from Carl Turner at Expat Tax that pre-2024 income only refers to cash in the bank, so I only asked if cash in a brokerage account was acceptable or not.  I took advice from Baker McKenzie to convert investments to capital prior to 31 December 2023.  

 

It makes sense that pre-2024 income, that AN users like to call "savings" must exist in a liquid form.  For example, my brokerage account held $1m worth of stocks on 31 December 2023, bought with pre-2024 income, then I sold it in 2024, so I don't need to pay tax on remittance of the capital with which I bought those stocks.  Too difficult to assess the monetary value of those stocks.  Problem with the definition of pre-2024 income.  I did not expect that the call center representative could provide clear actionable guidance on that, so I focused on the concept of liquid assets (cash in the bank a la Carl Turner), probing to see if that concept could be extended to cash in a financial institution that is not a 'bank."   As I stated to the TRD rep:  I cannot find any official guidance on what constitutes "pre-2024 income" that is exempted under P. 162A.  He did not provide any official reference to clarify the definition of "pre-2024 income" or evidence required to prove that income is "pre-2024 income" other than the usual bank statements, etc.

 

Thanks for the report above....

 

So am I correctly understanding your report above to mean:

 

1. you felt the TRD rep confirmed your sense that cash balances held in brokerage accounts as of end 2023 SHOULD count as Thai tax exempt savings if later remitted into Thailand?

 

2. you didn't get a clear answer from the same TRD rep as to whether the stock holding balances held in the same brokerage account as of the end of 2023 would or would not be acceptable to be counted as Thai tax exempt if later remitted into Thailand???

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

If this comment should come true then it's the end for me and I do mean the end, I have lived here happily for the last 17 years, now all of a sudden living here is full of fear, I'm sure I am not alone, I do have the 800k, I do have  65k per month but only just because of the exchange rate, I have small savings, I can not produce money out of thin air.

I have no where else to go, if things turn bad then sadly I would have to take the easy way out, I'm 68 so maybe 10 yrs left anyway.

I don't bring in much via 3 pensions under 1 million per annum, I pay tax in the UK, 4 times the tax office has refused me a TIN number saying " you don't need to pay tax as you pay in the UK" 

Can I worry anymore than I do already? Reading the comments within this thread, yes I can!!

Watch the youtube video I just posted.  The law has been around for decades.  The Thai's have decided it's time to make a baht out of it.  

 

Your situation is part of the chaos most expected.  "The Somchai Shuffle" at TRD Offices isn't helping things.  

 

It's going to be interesting in towns and cities where immigration may ask for a TIN / Certificate of Clearance, but the local TRD Office staff tell the pensioners "No need to file."  

 

I explained it in another post.  You know you're on a pension.  The UK government know your on a pension.  There is a Thai / UK DTA in place.  However, all the Thai bank / Thai government sees in the "cash" or "income" into your Thai bank.  They don't know it's from a pension unless you prove it to them      

 

You do not have much to worry about, and you have plenty of options, just don't kick an own goal on this one by doing nothing, as others have suggested. 

[oldcpu]

33 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Get a TIN, file, pay or no pay tax, get a certificate of clearance from the TRD, and rest easy. 

 

Doing nothing is what may cause problems down the track. 

 

If doing nothing would cause problems downstream, why would a number of Thai RD offices tell the foreigners who are tax residents that given their circumstances they (1) did not qualify for a Thai TIN, and (2) did not have to file a Thai tax return.

.

[oldcpu]

31 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I explained it in another post.  You know you're on a pension.  The UK government know your on a pension.  There is a Thai / UK DTA in place.  However, all the Thai bank / Thai government sees in the "cash" or "income" into your Thai bank.  They don't know it's from a pension unless you prove it to them     

 

 

So what ?  

 

The Thai RD is quite public that they work on a system where the tax resident needs to evaluate if they have sufficient assessable income to file a tax ID.

 

My suspicion is  if we are talking ENORMOUS amounts of money, or if the Thai RD has other reasons to check up on a person, they will they bother to check up on those who legally do not file a tax return.

 

You and I have very different views here. Mine are backed up by a local Thai RD.  Also backed up by a forum user who phoned the Thai RD help line.

 

Your view? Maybe at most backed up by your speculation, and the youtube videos of some Tax advisors who are possibly hoping to generate income by frightening some to submit tax returns when legally NOT required.

 

I know whose view I am going to follow.

.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

You don't see any truth in it, and the possibility the amounts will change in the future?

 

It's been 800k / 65k for decades.  It can't stay at those levels forever. 

 

Really ?  Decades?

 

Are you certain on that?

 

EDIT: I  vaguely recall it was much lower in the 1990s, and only changed some time after year 2000.

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I wouldn't listen to Somchai on that but I would self assess and determine if you meet the threshold of assessable remitted income or not. If not, no need to file, and worse case if audited be prepared to prove that and still owe no tax. Cheers.

Posted a youtube video where the guy quotes the decades old law, which specifically sets out all tax residents of Thailand must have a TIN.  It's been discussed on this forum, with many in agreement. 

 

That's part of the chaos, isn't it?  "The Somchai Shuffle" is a TRD officer says, "No need to file.  No TIN for you."  However, the law states you must have a TIN.   

 

Interesting times ahead. 

[KhunHeineken]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Really ?  Decades?

 

Are you certain on that?

 

The 800k baht law has been in since to 2008.  That's over 10 years, so, yes, we now talk in "decades" but we can say 17 years, if it makes you feel better. 

[oldcpu]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

The 800k baht law has been in since to 2008.  That's over 10 years, so, yes, we now talk in "decades" but we can say 17 years, if it makes you feel better. 

 

 Decades eh  ... pure exaggeration on your part. ...  Plural , no less. 

 

 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Why do you think I should be banned? 

 

Soon after this tax policy was announced, many could see the easiest, cheapest, and most effective way for the Thai government to ensure compliance was using their immigration laws.  It was obvious then, and is obvious now.

 

Why do you think it's soooooooo left field that just discussing it is scaremongering?  

 

This guy sums it up quite well.  He states any government official can ask for whatever documents the want.  

 

 

 

 

The next time you mention this your going in the dog house.....Give it a rest......A loooooooong  long  rest...

[KhunHeineken]

22 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

So what ?  

 

The Thai RD is quite public that they work on a system where the tax resident needs to evaluate if they have sufficient assessable income to file a tax ID.

 

My suspicion is  if we are talking ENORMOUS amounts of money, or if the Thai RD has other reasons to check up on a person, they will they bother to check up on those who legally do not file a tax return.

 

You and I have very different views here. Mine are backed up by a local Thai RD.  Also backed up by a forum user who phoned the Thai RD help line.

 

Your view? Maybe at most backed up by your speculation, and the youtube videos of some Tax advisors who are possibly hoping to generate income by frightening some to submit tax returns when legally NOT required.

 

I know whose view I am going to follow.

.

I've posted this youtube video in three other threads.  Like most, I read and post on multiple threads, but maybe some don't, so here it is on this thread. 

 

He quotes the Thai law from decades ago.  It's only a short video, and he is quite direct. 

 

Now, a couple of questions for you, "Is he lying?"  "Does that law exist?"  

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

 Decades eh  ... pure exaggeration on your part. ...  Plural , no less. 

 

 

Once into the second decade, it's correct to speak in "decades."     

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I've posted this youtube video in three other threads.  Like most, I read and post on multiple threads, but maybe some don't, so here it is on this thread. 

 

He quotes the Thai law from decades ago.  It's only a short video, and he is quite direct. 

 

Now, a couple of questions for you, "Is he lying?"  "Does that law exist?"  

 

EXACTLY WHERE in the video.  I am not going to waste my time going through yet another video unless you point out the exact time.

 

I already pointed out local Thai RD (more than just one rogue RD tax department)  have stated for some no TIN will be provided and a tax return not required (for those tax residents specific financial situation).  I have already pointed out a Thai RD help line stated no tax return required for those whose assessable income is too low.

 

And all you have is a video where you can not even point out exact time where allegedly what you claim is the case?

 

Pathetic.

[KhunHeineken]

33 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

If doing nothing would cause problems downstream, why would a number of Thai RD offices tell the foreigners who are tax residents that given their circumstances they (1) did not qualify for a Thai TIN, and (2) did not have to file a Thai tax return.

.

That's "The Somchai Shuffle." 

 

Will you be relying on verbal information from a TRD Officer, of which there is no record of the meeting, no proof you even went to the TRD Office, no name of the officer you spoke to, and no official record of the information he said to you, if / when there's some trouble further down the track?  

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

That's "The Somchai Shuffle." 

 

No ... the response is the "KhunHeineken countershuffle". 

 

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Will you be relying on verbal information from a TRD Officer, of which there is no record of the meeting, no proof you even went to the TRD Office, no name of the officer you spoke to, and no official record of the information he said to you, if / when there's some trouble further down the track?  

 

Better than relying on your posts .

 

 

[Yumthai]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

However, the law states you must have a TIN.

The law also states you can't drive on the sidewalk and so on... there's an endless list.

 

You can speculate Thailand will, soon or later, enforce their laws, stop offering "facilitating" services, and worry about it.
By repeating it non-stop you make some confused minds start worrying unnecessarily about it as well... does that make you feel better?

[TheAppletons]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

EXACTLY WHERE in the video.  I am not going to waste my time going through yet another video unless you point out the exact time.

 

I already pointed out local Thai RD (more than just one rogue RD tax department)  have stated for some no TIN will be provided and a tax return not required (for those tax residents specific financial situation).  I have already pointed out a Thai RD help line stated no tax return required for those whose assessable income is too low.

 

And all you have is a video where you can not even point out exact time where allegedly what you claim is the case?

 

Pathetic.

 

  Contrary to what some would have you believe, the actual Thai tax code does not say everyone must get a TIN.

 

  It says one should apply for a TIN within 60 days of deriving assessable income.  Ergo, no assessable income means you don't need a TIN.

 

  Here's the actual Thai tax code, not some stupid YouTube idiot:

 

  https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

EXACTLY WHERE in the video.  I am not going to waste my time going through yet another video unless you point out the exact time.

 

I already pointed out local Thai RD (more than just one rogue RD tax department)  have stated for some no TIN will be provided and a tax return not required (for those tax residents specific financial situation).  I have already pointed out a Thai RD help line stated no tax return required for those whose assessable income is too low.

 

And all you have is a video where you can not even point out exact time where allegedly what you claim is the case?

 

Pathetic.

You'll post for hours on AN, but no time to watch a short youtube video.  

 

Watch from 2:05 to 4:05.  That's 2 minutes of your precious time. 

 

Video is only 1 week old.   Quotes the Thai law from 1978.  

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

No ... the response is the "KhunHeineken countershuffle". 

Yes, I will be countering Somchai.   I suggest others do the same. 

 

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Better than relying on your posts .

In Somchai we trust. 

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Contrary to what some would have you believe, the actual Thai tax code does not say everyone must get a TIN.

 

  It says one should apply for a TIN within 60 days of deriving assessable income.  Ergo, no assessable income means you don't need a TIN.

 

  Here's the actual Thai tax code, not some stupid YouTube idiot:

 

  https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

I looked at your link.  It's Section 3. 

 

He quotes Section 70. 

 

"Is he lying?" 

[oldcpu]

30 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You'll post for hours on AN, but no time to watch a short youtube video.  

 

Watch from 2:05 to 4:05.  That's 2 minutes of your precious time. 

 

Video is only 1 week old.   Quotes the Thai law from 1978.  

 

Anglo Siam Legal ehh??

 

The Anglo Siam Legal rep really needs to talk to the Thai RD and get their facts straight. If they did, they would have learned that getting a TIN is for a tax resident and filing a Thai tax return is for a person  who is "liable to personal income tax".

 

Clear enough ? Clear? 

 

Ok , what does "liable to income tax" mean? I will tell you.  It means enough assessable income.  Clear?  OK ?  Does Siam Legal mention that?  No?  Why not?  Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Also, noted in that video at the start Anglo Legal claim " Invited for comments, but then comments are turned off. So video says onething, and Anglo Legal does something else".  They turn off the comments despite inviting comments.   Why?  Lol !! Lol !!!

 

Why is that?  My guess?  They don't want their mistakes pointed out to them.

 

So .. let us go further.

 

Now , lets say one applies on line for a Thai Tax ID Number (TIN).  What happens there?  Let me tell you. The online application goes to the RD tax headquarters in Bangkok.  

 

What does the Head office (Thailand's tax experts from the RD) in Bangkok then do?

 

Guess what?  Bangkok will not assign a TIN for another province. OK?  Clear? Crystal clear.  Right? Clear for you now I hope.

 

So Bangkok forward such applications to the provincial RD to assign a TIN if required. The provincial office determines if one is a tax resident, and determines if one has sufficient assessable income (making one 'liable for personal income tax') .

 

We have many cases that the provincial RD tax office refused to provide a TIN due to the expat not having enough assessable income and hence is not "liable to income tax' per Thai law.

 

More of the KhunHeineken countershuffle in action.

 

[KhunHeineken]

20 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The law also states you can't drive on the sidewalk and so on... there's an endless list.

 

You can speculate Thailand will, soon or later, enforce their laws, stop offering "facilitating" services, and worry about it.
By repeating it non-stop you make some confused minds start worrying unnecessarily about it as well... does that make you feel better?

Strange post. 

 

So, you are saying the law exists, but they will do nothing about it, like riding on a sidewalk.  Is that correct? 

 

It's been a law for decades, so why is the Thai government making it a "thing" now?   Surely, it's because they want the money. 

 

Yes, I know it's for wealthy Thai's, but foreigners will be collateral damage.  A tax resident is a tax resident.  

 

I am not worrying about it.  I have posted my plan in the past.  I will pay this year.  An agent will be taking care of everything for me.  Of course, I minimized my remittances in 2024, making it up with cash, brought in from other countries.  My goal is to get the Certificate of Clearance for as less tax as possible, so nothing can come back to bite me down the track. 

 

That's my strategy for the chaos. 

 

I will hold off until the 11th hour to file, and keep monitoring the situation, but I will be filing. 

[EVENKEEL]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

Strange post. 

 

So, you are saying the law exists, but they will do nothing about it, like riding on a sidewalk.  Is that correct? 

 

It's been a law for decades, so why is the Thai government making it a "thing" now?   Surely, it's because they want the money. 

 

Yes, I know it's for wealthy Thai's, but foreigners will be collateral damage.  A tax resident is a tax resident.  

 

I am not worrying about it.  I have posted my plan in the past.  I will pay this year.  An agent will be taking care of everything for me.  Of course, I minimized my remittances in 2024, making it up with cash, brought in from other countries.  My goal is to get the Certificate of Clearance for as less tax as possible, so nothing can come back to bite me down the track. 

 

That's my strategy for the chaos. 

 

I will hold off until the 11th hour to file, and keep monitoring the situation, but I will be filing. 

You're hilarious.  Did TRD appoint you spokesman? Is someone paying you? An honest question considering nowhere else in Thai news is this even a mention. 

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Anglo Siam Legal ehh??

 

The Anglo Siam Legal rep really needs to talk to the Thai RD and get their facts straight. If they did, they would have learned that getting a TIN is for a tax resident and filing a Thai tax return is for a person  who is "liable to personal income tax".

 

Clear enough ? Clear? 

 

Ok , what does "liable to income tax" mean? I will tell you.  It means enough assessable income.  Clear?  OK ?  Does Siam Legal mention that?  No?  Why not?  Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Also, noted in that video at the start Anglo Legal claim " Invited for comments, but then comments are turned off. So video says onething, and Anglo Legal something else".  They turn off the comments.   Why?  Lol !! Lol !!!

 

Why is that?  My guess?  They don't want their mistakes pointed out to them.

 

So .. let us go further.

 

Now , lets say one applies on line for a Thai Tax ID Number (TIN).  What happens there?  Let me tell you. The online application goes to the RD tax headquarters in Bangkok.  

 

What does the Head office (Thailand's tax experts from the RD) in Bangkok then do?

 

Guess what?  Bangkok will not assign a TIN for another province. OK?  Clear? Crystal clear.  Right? Clear for you now I hope.

 

So Bangkok forward such applications to the provincial RD to assign a TIN if required. The provincial office determines if one is a tax resident, and determines if one has sufficient assessable income (making one 'liable for personal income tax') .

 

We have many cases that the provincial RD tax office refused to provide a TIN due to the expat not having enough assessable income and hence is not "liable to income tax' per Thai law.

 

More of the KhunHeineken countershuffle in action.

 

I don't know the guy.  I don't engage the services of his business.  I couldn't care less about comments being turned off or on. 

 

He read the Thai Law and it seemed clear to me Thailand tax residents must have a TIN. 

 

I think you will find most living here remit more than the threshold.  I know I do. 

 

The rest of your post is more of "The Somchai Shuffle."  Members will have to find their own way around Somchai.  I have posted what I will be doing.

 

Good Luck to all in dealing with this tax policy. 

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

An honest question considering nowhere else in Thai news is this even a mention. 

Riding on sidewalks rarely makes the news, but Yumthai says this tax policy will be just like riding on a sidewalk, nothing will happen to you for breaking Thailand's tax laws.  

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I don't know the guy.  I don't engage the services of his business.  I couldn't care less about comments being turned off or on. 

 

He read the Thai Law and it seemed clear to me Thailand tax residents must have a TIN. 

 

So you believe him over (1) local Thai RD officials from different provinces (where the RD HQ in Bangkok has delegated the assignment of Thai TIN to the local provincial RD officers , and you believe him over (2) Thai experts from the Thai RD help line, who made the time and effort to double check the questions asked, before answering.

 

Just another youtube blogger trying to drum up business.

 

 

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I think you will find most living here remit more than the threshold.  I know I do. 

 

That may be.  I don't know. 

 

But what I do believe, is most living here should be given good advice, and not inaccurate advice pushing them to file a tax return if it is not needed.

 

Again , it needs to be assessable income over the threshold.

 

 

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Good Luck to all in dealing with this tax policy. 

 

We are 100% in agreement there.

.

[KhunHeineken]

52 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

The next time you mention this your going in the dog house.....Give it a rest......A loooooooong  long  rest...

Mention what? 

[scottiejohn]

52 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

By repeating it non-stop you make some confused minds start worrying unnecessarily about it as well... does that make you feel better?

I think the ONLY logical reason why he keeps reporting this totally misleading scaremongering Crap across multiple threads is to get his post count up!

[scottiejohn]

21 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Is someone paying you?

Nobody in their right mind would pay for his dangerous rubbish!

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

So you believe him over (1) local Thai RD officials from different provinces (where the RD HQ in Bangkok has delegated the assignment of Thai TIN to the local provincial RD officers , and you believe him over (2) Thai experts from the Thai RD help line, who made the time and effort to double check the questions asked, before answering.

I posted the video because he read the Thai Law. 

 

I wouldn't post a video that had opinion only in it. 

 

I don't care what guys on youtube say, or Somchai at the TRD says.

 

I'll be getting an agent to file, and then rest easy. 

 

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

But what I do believe, is most living here should be given good advice, and not inaccurate advice pushing them to file a tax return if it is not needed.

Unfortunately, it appears many are not getting the correct advice from Somchai.

 

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Again , it needs to be assessable income over the threshold.

 

If only it was that simple.  We could all remit say, 3 million baht for living expenses and just simply say to Somchai, "It's not assessable."   

 

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

We are 100% in agreement there.

Ohhhh, we are all going to need it. 

 

There will be twists, turns, tweaks, and back flips.  They will make a lot of it up on the fly.  Also, this tax policy will evolve.  2025 is just the start. 

 

They know they are onto a new revenue stream with this money spinner, and I just can't see it being as easy as saying, "My remittances are non assessable."  I have a feeling they are going to want proof of source.