No more need to comment/speculate about the faith of the Ukraine.

[swissie]

It is not necessary to comment / speculate on "the war in the Ukraine" anymore. Why? It all hinges on Donalds willingness to further support the Ukraine (or not). If not, the Ukraine is doomed. That is the ONLY deciding factor, everything else is of no relevance.

[scottiejohn]

8 hours ago, swissie said:

It is not necessary to comment / speculate on "the war in the Ukraine" anymore. Why? It all hinges on Donalds willingness to further support the Ukraine (or not). If not, the Ukraine is doomed. That is the ONLY deciding factor, everything else is of no relevance.

Explain that to the people still fighting and dying in both sides of the conflict!

[Gweiloman]

On 2/7/2025 at 11:01 PM, swissie said:

It is not necessary to comment / speculate on "the war in the Ukraine" anymore. Why? It all hinges on Donalds willingness to further support the Ukraine (or not). If not, the Ukraine is doomed. That is the ONLY deciding factor, everything else is of no relevance.

Ukraine hasn’t done that well even with the full support of NATO from the beginning. It was doomed from the start and it’s just a matter of time. The big beneficiary has been China and it seems to me that the longer the conflict continues, the more China benefits. 
 

An all round win for the global south.

[MicroB]

On 2/7/2025 at 4:01 PM, swissie said:

It is not necessary to comment / speculate on "the war in the Ukraine" anymore. Why? It all hinges on Donalds willingness to further support the Ukraine (or not). If not, the Ukraine is doomed. That is the ONLY deciding factor, everything else is of no relevance.

 

 

Use of the term "the Ukraine" as opposed to "Ukraine" indicates a preference for Soviet era languag, and not accepting the right of Ukraine to existance as a sovereign, independent state. In the modern era, its accepted that this language is used by Russophiles.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844

 

Can Ukraine exist without American largesse? Of course it can. The Russians cannot snuff out an idea.  When the Nazis occupied Western and Eastern Europe, those countries still existed even when, in same cases, the Nazis tried to wipe out the very existance of those nations. I assume you are SWiss. You lot happily profited from the Nazis.

 

Without US support, the job is harder against the orcs from the East. The US provides about 60% by value of mikitary hardware.. But remember, Russia has run down its stocks; its gone through 10,000 MBTs for instance, and its not getting replacements in any significant numberd. Ukraine has managed to grow its fleet, initially through Russia reluctantly supplying some, and latterly, Western replacements. Russia has burnt through its best kit. The Ukrainian forces though have upgraded. Russia sti needs a 3-1 advantage to advance. Russia can only win (the total occupation of Ukraine) through a dramatic change of tactics, such as tactical nuclear weapons. But that would of course be a hollow victory,

[MicroB]

On 2/9/2025 at 2:50 AM, Gweiloman said:

Ukraine hasn’t done that well even with the full support of NATO from the beginning. It was doomed from the start and it’s just a matter of time. The big beneficiary has been China and it seems to me that the longer the conflict continues, the more China benefits. 
 

An all round win for the global south.

 

Tankie apologist.

[Gweiloman]

5 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

Tankie apologist.

What’s a tankie? 

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

What’s a tankie? 

 

Apparently, anyone who wants the dying to stop and the rebuilding to start is an apologist.

 

[Gweiloman]

12 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Apparently, anyone who wants the dying to stop and the rebuilding to start is an apologist.

 

They call anyone who is not on their side an apologist, shill, propagandist, orc etc. Name calling is all they have left.

[swissie]

17 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

 

Use of the term "the Ukraine" as opposed to "Ukraine" indicates a preference for Soviet era languag, and not accepting the right of Ukraine to existance as a sovereign, independent state. In the modern era, its accepted that this language is used by Russophiles.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844

 

Can Ukraine exist without American largesse? Of course it can. The Russians cannot snuff out an idea.  When the Nazis occupied Western and Eastern Europe, those countries still existed even when, in same cases, the Nazis tried to wipe out the very existance of those nations. I assume you are SWiss. You lot happily profited from the Nazis.

 

Without US support, the job is harder against the orcs from the East. The US provides about 60% by value of mikitary hardware.. But remember, Russia has run down its stocks; its gone through 10,000 MBTs for instance, and its not getting replacements in any significant numberd. Ukraine has managed to grow its fleet, initially through Russia reluctantly supplying some, and latterly, Western replacements. Russia has burnt through its best kit. The Ukrainian forces though have upgraded. Russia sti needs a 3-1 advantage to advance. Russia can only win (the total occupation of Ukraine) through a dramatic change of tactics, such as tactical nuclear weapons. But that would of course be a hollow victory,

I allow myself to Quote you: "The US provides about 60% by value of mikitary hardware".  No more need to comment this any further.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

Gilbert Doctorow said, quote:

Read on blog or Reader

Gilbert Doctorow

Read on blog or Reader

J.D. Vance speech to the Munich Security Conference

By gilbertdoctorow on February 14, 2025 To those of you who have not yet seen it, I urge you to watch Vice President Vance’s speech to the plenary session of the Munich Security Conference earlier today. It was surely the most important speech given at this venue since Vladimir Putin delivered his lengthy criticism of United States hegemonic behavior and the monopolar world in 2007.   In the case of Putin, he opened his speech with the remark that he hoped the hosts would not switch off his microphone when they understood what he was saying. In the case of Vance, after taking a round of applause for his heartfelt expression of sympathy to those who suffered from a terrorist attack in the city yesterday, he said he hoped this would not be the only applause shown to the speech he was about to make. Both men understood fully well that the audience would not be pleased by their messages of harsh criticism.   Vance opened by saying that the biggest threat to Europe comes not from Russia or China or other external threats. It comes from within by the antidemocratic instincts and behavior of those in power, who trample free speech in the name of fighting ‘disinformation’ and show no respect for political opposition. His first point of reference was the scandalous overturning of the election results in Romania when the candidate who favors normalization of relations with Russia was said to have received illicit support from Moscow. Vance was directly criticizing the authorities in Romania who refused to accept the verdict of the people when it went against them, and also the authorities in Brussels and elsewhere in the EU who encouraged this anti-democratic behavior.   I will not detail the points in his speech. It was short and easily comprehensible. Numerous news organizations carried it. Here is one link that I used: Vance’s point is that the military defense of Europe is pointless if the leadership in Europe does not respect the values of democracy and free speech, if it does not accept the validity of those voters who happen to have different interests from the ruling parties. He was railing against the attitude which we all saw in the USA when Hilary Clinton disparaged supporters of Donald Trump during the 2016 elections, calling them ‘deplorables.’ Exactly the same phenomenon is going on today in many European Union countries, among them the largest and most influential.   In Germany the censorious behavior is seen in the ‘firewall’ of the centrist parties against the supposedly ‘extreme right’ Alternative for Germany party.   As regards ‘foreign intervention’ in the European, and now specifically in the German elections which will take place on 23 February, Vance chided the allies by noting that if the USA could put up with the hectoring by the adolescent Swedish environmental campaigner Greta Thunberg for years, then Germany can put up with Elon Musk campaigning in favor of the AfD for a month or two. If their democracy is so fragile that it cannot stand up to dissonant voices, then there is in effect no democracy to speak of, and nothing to defend by military forces.   Vance’s speech was brilliant, very well composed and delivered. The man has to be the very best Vice President of the United States since the days of the Founding Fathers.   After the dark days of the Biden repressions, the reliance of Power on corrupt intelligence agencies and the weaponization of the Justice Department, it was remarkable to be treated to such brave words from a top American official in defense of the people against the authoritarian rulers in Brussels, in Berlin, in Paris.   It is hard to see how the usurper Ursula van der Leyen and her whole team of people-haters will be able to hold onto power in these conditions. ©Gilbert Doctorow, 2025

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:27 PM, Gweiloman said:

What’s a tankie? 

When I was in the military a tankie is someone in an armoured vehicles corps. I have zero idea if that is what he means, nor do I care. Best ignored.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Hakuna Matata said:

It is hard to see how the usurper Ursula van der Leyen and her whole team of people-haters will be able to hold onto power in these conditions.

Unfortunately they will not learn an iota from Vance's speech and blame Trump for all their troubles- standard excuse for liberals today- if caught being antidemocratic just deflect to Trump.

One hopes the next election sees the entire cabal banished to the political wilderness, but I have no doubt the bribery will be full on to retain the IMO corrupt present system, so I'm not holding my breath- the sheeple care only about woke issues and the latest toys.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Hakuna Matata said:

To those of you who have not yet seen it, I urge you to watch Vice President Vance’s speech to the plenary session of the Munich Security Conference earlier today.

Al Jazeera characterised it as Vance "lecturing" his audience.

IMO they deserve more than a spot of lecturing, but corporal punishment has been banned by the wokeistas.

[beautifulthailand99]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

When I was in the military a tankie is someone in an armoured vehicles corps. I have zero idea if that is what he means, nor do I care. Best ignored.

A tankie is a term originally used to describe Western communists who supported the Soviet invasions of Hungary (1956) and Czechoslovakia (1968), during which tanks and troops were deployed to suppress popular uprisings. These individuals defended the Soviet Union’s actions as necessary to maintain socialist rule, even at the cost of repressing democratic movements.

Over time, the term has broadened to describe those who, while identifying as progressive or leftist, defend authoritarian regimes perceived as anti-Western or nominally socialist. This includes support for governments such as those of Syria, Russia, and China, often under the justification of resisting Western imperialism or maintaining national sovereignty.

[Mike_Hunt]

On 2/7/2025 at 11:01 AM, swissie said:

It is not necessary to comment / speculate on "the war in the Ukraine" anymore. Why? It all hinges on Donalds willingness to further support the Ukraine (or not). If not, the Ukraine is doomed. That is the ONLY deciding factor, everything else is of no relevance.

Why don’t the people in Europe step in and take control of the situation? 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

A tankie is a term originally used to describe Western communists who supported the Soviet invasions of Hungary (1956) and Czechoslovakia (1968), during which tanks and troops were deployed to suppress popular uprisings. These individuals defended the Soviet Union’s actions as necessary to maintain socialist rule, even at the cost of repressing democratic movements.

Over time, the term has broadened to describe those who, while identifying as progressive or leftist, defend authoritarian regimes perceived as anti-Western or nominally socialist. This includes support for governments such as those of Syria, Russia, and China, often under the justification of resisting Western imperialism or maintaining national sovereignty.

Thanks for that. I never heard it used in that context before.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Mike_Hunt said:

Why don’t the people in Europe step in and take control of the situation? 

Perhaps because Ukraine isn't worth it.

Perhaps because they are not militarily capable, having run down their military's since the end of the Iron Curtain.

Perhaps because in their hearts they know it's American Great Game BS.

Perhaps because they can't afford it.

Perhaps because they know that doing so would result in unemployment after the next elections.

Perhaps because most Euro people don't believe in it.

 

I can think of many reasons for not doing so, and can't think of any logical reason why Ukraine is so important that it's deserves risking nuclear winter if NATO countries attack Russia directly.

[Mike_Hunt]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps because Ukraine isn't worth it.

Perhaps because they are not militarily capable, having run down their military's since the end of the Iron Curtain.

Perhaps because in their hearts they know it's American Great Game BS.

Perhaps because they can't afford it.

Perhaps because they know that doing so would result in unemployment after the next elections.

Perhaps because most Euro people don't believe in it.

 

I can think of many reasons for not doing so, and can't think of any logical reason why Ukraine is so important that it's deserves risking nuclear winter if NATO countries attack Russia directly.

We know the Europeans are not militarily capable.  They depend on the USA for heavy lifting. 

[beautifulthailand99]

5 hours ago, Mike_Hunt said:

We know the Europeans are not militarily capable.  They depend on the USA for heavy lifting. 

A storm is coming to Europe - you can feel it coming and the same forces that brought Trump to power will wreak their havoc in Europe. This is not as gopd thing but has got to the stage where it is probabbly unstoppable. Ukraine is footnote in this world a signal that the old order is breaking. In terms of EU/NATO Zelenskiy is tilting at windmills that are fast dissapearing.

[Sir Dude]

Trump might just be doing his misdirection/brinksmanship negotiation on this one too, like with others before. He is threatening the worst senario to manipulate others to agreeing to what he wants... and his flamboyance and unpredictability helps him here, it's on purpose. For example, Trump has said he'll hang Ukraine out to dry, but maybe not if Ukraine promises to give the US $500 billion in rare earth metals in exchange for military and political support because China controls much of the world's supply of rare earth metals... always transactional.

Maybe the US has no intention of abandoning Ukraine, but just wants something in return. Trump's deceptions are convincing, but no-one wants to risk it, and Trump can easily do what he says. ASlso, on this one, the icing on the cake is that Europe pulls its collective finger out of its arse regarding defence and steps up... which is also a big benefit to the US. Perhaps Trump isn't as stupid as some like to think... time will tell. Real principled negotiation ends up in a win-win situation, good for both sides.... when you try to do win-lose, that's called hard barginning, and often ends in no deal or lose-lose.