Nightmare at the Prachuap tax office

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

As i know it. You must file tax return for all monies sent to Thailand from abroad. Report income earned abroad as well. Perhaps I am wrong. 

You are partially incorrect.

 

You must file for assessable income remitted from abroad  if  it exceeds 60k baht.  

 

No requirement to file non-assessable income that was remitted, e.g. savings from pre-2024 earnings and earnings that are specified non-assessable in Thailand in the relevant DTA. 

 

And no way to file declaring non-assessable income. The forms are only for assessable income. 

 

No requirement as yet to declare non-remitted income. This may change in future years. 

[Sheryl]

50 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Whether you are wrong or right is immaterial.

 

Unless an Immigration officer tells me I have to have a Thai tax number and/or tax return to obtain an extension of stay, I won't be going anywhere near a tax office. They will have to come to me.

 

If they do, I have documented proof every baht transferred is from pre-2024 savings.

 

IMO your best course of action is to try at another office. It's very likely different offices have different understanding of the legislation, several posters have been told they don't need a Thai tax number.

Disagree. Do not try at a different office.  There is not a provincial RD office to be found that knows the content of 60+ DTAs. And they are not set up to deal with non-assessable income.  

[Sandboxer]

The tax simp is strong with this one....

[anrcaccount]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Disagree. Do not try at a different office.  There is not a ptovincial RD office to be found that knows the content of 60+ DTAs. And they are not set up to deal with non-assessable income.  

 

Fixed it for you:

 

"And they are not set up to deal with  foreigners with remitted income."

[4myr]

59 minutes ago, thesetat said:

 

So here I am. Telling you the tax office here in Mueang Prachuap Khiri Khan. Has no clue about how to manage my taxes and are determined to make me pay thousands on my SSI. 

 

Does anyone know if another office (perhaps Hua Hin) is more knowledgeable in this and has an English speaker working there to assist us? 

 

I know if I file through this office, they will do it wrong and make me pay alot for no reason. 

 

Had similar experience with this office last year. Went there twice. Even spoke with the lawyers office on the 3rd floor.

 

Things they don't understand or recognize, even after reading out loud the Thai version of my country's DTA: they said they never allowed DTA exemptions in their history of cases, only tax credits. Even for cases not mentioned in the DTA they allow tax credits, this according to my first visit with the tax officer lady.

 

Hua Hin is a smaller branch. But you can go to the regional office where Prachuap is part of [ https://www.rd.go.th/english/40118.html ].

It is Office 6, but located in Bangkok. Here's the address https://www.rd.go.th/region/06/19.html 

[Sheryl]

56 minutes ago, thesetat said:

But this office was completely ignorant about it all. 

They all are. Countless reports from all over the country  and advice given differs greatly office by office but all that I have seen have been incorrect in one way or another. 

 

DTAs aside, remember that RDs only deal with assessable income.  Normally a person with no assessable income would never go there and, if RD  comprehend your income is non-assessable they are not going to understand what you want/why you came in. 

 

Also remember that no need to file in person at RD. Online fillng is actively encouraged. 

[thesetat]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

They all are. Countless reports from all over the country  and advice given differs greatly office by office but all that I have seen have been incorrect in one wsy or another. 

 

DTAs aside, remember that RDs only deal with assessable income.  Normally a person with no assessable income would never go there and, if RD  comprehend your income is non-assedsable they are not going to understand what you want/why you came in. 

 

Also remember that no need to file in person at RD. Oline fillng is actively encouraged. 

Thanks.. thankfully I did not file while there. I knew immediately they are not only stupid about the new tax laws but they were also stupid trying to ask me why I get disability and how long i have been getting it and where is my proof i am disabled. 

They really have no clue what to do about these new tax laws for foreigners. I will just save my documents and if they come knocking I will have everything handy. 

[TheAppletons]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

DTAs aside, remember that RDs only deal with assessable income.  Normally a person with no assessable income would never go there and, if RD  comprehend your income is non-assedsable they are not going to understand what you want/why you came in. 

 

  THIS.  ^^^^^

[thesetat]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

They all are. Countless reports from all over the country  and advice given differs greatly office by office but all that I have seen have been incorrect in one wsy or another. 

 

DTAs aside, remember that RDs only deal with assessable income.  Normally a person with no assessable income would never go there and, if RD  comprehend your income is non-assedsable they are not going to understand what you want/why you came in. 

 

Also remember that no need to file in person at RD. Oline fillng is actively encouraged. 

My SSI as well as my kids are considered Non-assessable? 

I had thought they were connecting to banks to see what money was transferred to Thailand banks from abroad. To tax that money. 

[Sheryl]

14 minutes ago, 4myr said:

 

 

Things they don't understand or recognize, even after reading out loud the Thai version of my country's DTA: they said they never allowed DTA exemptions in their history of cases, only tax credits. Even for cases not mentioned in the DTA they allow tax credits, this according to my first visit with the tax officer lady.

 

Non-assessable income does not get "exempted" . It just does not get declared to begin with.

 

The staff are correct that there is no such exemption category in the tax forms. 

 

People with non assessable income going into RD offices  is bound to generate  confusion. And what they want -- some sott  of official acknowledgement that their income is non-assesssble -- cannot be gotten. RDs are not set up to issue that, only to assist in filing of assessable income.

[Sheryl]

18 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Fixed it for you:

 

"And they are not set up to deal with  foreigners with remitted income."

Actually they are set up to deal with remitted income if it is assessable. (Though some are apparently unaware of the rules)

[thesetat]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Non-assessable income does not get "exempted" . It just does not get declared to begin with.

 

The staff ard correct that there is no such exemption category in the tax forms. 

 

People with non assessable income going into RD offices  is bound to generate  confusion. And what they want -- some sott  of official acknowledgement that their income is non-assesssble -- cannot be gotten. RDs are not set up to issue that, only to assist in filing of assessable income.

AS my headline said.. What a nightmare. I pity those who do have to sit there and file their taxes with idiots that do not learn their jobs and the new rules for filing. 

I think by Mar. 31 there is going to be many more cases of the ignorance the Thai tax offices have concerning how a foreigner should file. 

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, thesetat said:

My SSI as well as my kids are considered Non-assessable? 

I had thought they were connecting to banks to see what money was transferred to Thailand banks from abroad. To tax that money. 

SS payments are,   per the Thai-US DTA, non-assessable in Thailand. Only assessable in US (where often no tax owed).

 

There are financial system reporting systems in place through which RD could, if it wanted, get details of overseas remittances. It does not follilow from that, that they are going to invest what would be a  staggering amount of work, into screening  all  remittances against tax filings. Inconceivable to me that they, or any government, would do so. Possible  that a selective screening  and cross check would be done in cases of very large remittances. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, thesetat said:

AS my headline said.. What a nightmare. I pity those who do have to sit there and file their taxes with idiots that do not learn their jobs and the new rules for filing. 

I think by Mar. 31 there is going to be many more cases of the ignorance the Thai tax offices have concerning how a foreigner should file. 

 

Before this year, most retired expats in Thailand whose only income was remitting foreign funds into Thailand rarely ever needed to file a Thai personal tax return.

 

Now suddenly, the rules have changed somewhat, and suddenly, there are 61 or so Dual Taxation treaties that Thailand has with 61 or so other countries that can dictate what Thailand can and cannot tax for retired foreigners from those countries.

 

To expect that peon TRD staff spread all over the country are suddenly going to become knowledgeable about the intricacies of many different tax treaties is a hill far too high to climb for a Thai government agency.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

 

There are financial system reporting systems in place through which RD could, if it wanted, get details of overseas remittances. It does not folliliw from that, that they are going to invest what would be a  staggering amount of work, into screening  all  remittances against tax filings. Invonceivable to me that they, or any government, would do so. Possible  that a selective screening  and cross check would be done in cases of very large remittances. 

 

One of the interesting things about all this is... IF the TRD ever gets their act together on all this, supposedly, one of the first areas they're supposedly going to look at for potentially taxable foreign remittances will be incoming foreign wire transfers to foreigners here.

 

In the case of Americans, many thousands living here have their monthly SS payments direct deposited into their Thai bank accounts. Hopefully, along the way, TRD and their tax enforcement will recognize that they need to disregard/ignore the incoming U.S. Social Security monthly payments, given that they are Thai tax exempt!

 

[Denim]

40 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Unless an Immigration officer tells me I have to have a Thai tax number and/or tax return to obtain an extension of stay, I won't be going anywhere near a tax office. They will have to come to me.

 

Whole heartedly agree. The OP walked into the Lions den and got bitten . Stay well away from that place unless you are frog marched there by immigration.  In Thailand it pays to keep a low profile..  

 

In the old days you could not exit the kingdom without a tax clearance certificate if you stayed longer than 180 days.  This would have cost a few thousand baht. However , outside the tax office there were moonlighting civil servants that would act as your guarentor for 500 baht.  

TIT  not the USA.

[Sheryl]

6 minutes ago, thesetat said:

 

I think by Mar. 31 there is going to be many more cases of the ignorance the Thai tax offices have concerning how a foreigner should file. 

 

Already abundant such reports including errors in tbe opposite direction eg foreigners who do have a legal obligation to file bring told they do not.

 

People wrongly think verbal statements by RD staff are somehow definitive and legally binding. They are not.  It remains the tax residents' responsibility to  know if and how they need to file.  

 

The system is online and automated. Abdolutely no need or advantage (and, for foreigners, serious DISadvantsge) to an inperson visit to RD office. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Denim said:

In the old days you could not exit the kingdom without a tax clearance certificate if you stayed longer than 180 days.  This would have cost a few thousand baht. However , outside the tax office there were moonlighting civil servants that would act as your guarentor for 500 baht.  

TIT  not the USA.

 

There's some chatter, just chatter for the present, about the Thai government supposedly having some plan down the road to link Thai tax compliance with the issuance of visas/extensions of stay. That is NOT the case now, and AFAIK hasn't even been formally proposed anywhere public as yet.

 

However, if that ever were to become a reality, it would be interesting to see how they'd intend on making that work when at least under the current rules, you can absolutely be a foreigner living in Thailand who has absolutely NO legal obligation to file a Thai tax return... chiefly because, you can have zero assessable income to report.

 

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There's some chatter, just chatter for the present, about the Thai government supposedly having some plan down the road to link Thai tax compliance with the issuance of visas/extensions of stay. That is NOT the case now, and AFAIK hasn't even been formally proposed anywhere public as yet.

 

However, if that ever were to become a reality, it would be interesting to see how they'd intend on making that work when at least under the current rules, you can absolutely be a foreigner living in Thailand who has absolutely NO legal obligation to file a Thai tax return... chiefly because, you can have zero assessable income to report.

 

AFAIK this "chatter" is exclusively speculation by worried expats....and scare mongering by financial/accounting companies serking to generate revenue. 

 

No government source.

 

There are, or at least used to be  systems in place for tax clearance for people with   budiness visas.

 

Nothing of the sort for retirees or tourists and no reason to expect it. 

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

As i know it. You must file tax return for all monies sent to Thailand from abroad. Report income earned abroad as well. Perhaps I am wrong. 

You must file a Tax Return if you have remitted as a single person more than THB 120.000 or married 220.000

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, thesetat said:

You are required to declare and file tax return on all monies transferred into Thailand even if no tax is owed

 

False.  You file if your assessable income is over 60K, or 120K if married filing joint.  US social security is exempt by DTA, non-assessable, not reported.  You have no assessable income, do not need to file, nor would you need a TIN.

 

I assume your wife has been filing her own taxes as married filing separate, and you have not filed up til now.  Or has she been filing jointly for the allowances, and you didn't know?

 

You could either file jointly with your wife, you will have no income other than bank interest.  She could claim the spouse allowance, and probably also the handicapped allowance.  I don't know what documentation would be required for that.

 

Or you could file separate.  Assume you have a pink ID, so get it activated, then file a null return online.  When you do this you can claim a refund of bank interest withholding tax.

 

The handicap allowance is 190K.  You could claim that until you turn 65, and then claim the old age 190K allowance.  (only one)

 

***NOT AN EXPERT, NOT ADVICE, OPINION ONLY***

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, thesetat said:

You are required to declare and file tax return on all monies transferred into Thailand even if no tax is owed

wrong!  It is in the rd websirte as well as interviews with RD and finance officials.  If your income is tax exempt here in Thailand then is is non-assessable income and you are NOT required to get a tax ID number nor are your required to fil any tax  forms!  If you want to obtain further formal evidence of such, go to the main tax office in the provincial capital and if they too can't provide you with a straight answer then make an appointment with the Revenue dept in Bangkok.  If they begin any harassment then contact the US embassy and if they won't support you then contact someone at American Citizens Abroad or US newspapers so that President Trump can advise the Thai revenue dept to read their documents concerning the double taxtion Agreement.  If this is what expats might face later as their local rd office refuses to accept the claim of non-assessable or exempt income then I am sure that the Embassy should be informed and State Dept in Washington also as well as international news offices on how the Thai revenue department is a power unto themselves or at least seems to think that in some places.

[NoDisplayName]

Until then, have your wife call TRD helpline #1161 to get valid information.

[BKKBike09]

2 hours ago, thesetat said:

They then told her that all of that income on that piece of paper would be taxed and i would need to pay thousands on it to their office

Out of interest, how much is 'thousands'? Thousands of baht? Baht equivalent of thousands of USD?

[thesetat]

8 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

Out of interest, how much is 'thousands'? Thousands of baht? Baht equivalent of thousands of USD?

the lady was estimating without using any form. she showed me calculator showing 27000 baht for the amount of my SSI. Not including my kids portion. 

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

No new laws began this year, either.

 

With your logic, if you were remitting your social security same year earned, you should have filed last year and the others before that.  

 

This is a prime example of why this whole "tax thing" is just ridiculous.  

the dta with the Us was signed off on by us ambassador ITOH,  I was assigned to the embassy during this period 1996 or 97.  SIncxe then, that statement article 20 states that the US social security is taxed ONLY by the US govt.    IF you doubt me, just read the document id on       https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf   btw, there is an "_" between america and the e.pdf

[Presnock]

Just now, Presnock said:

the dta with the Us was signed off on by us ambassador ITOH,  I was assigned to the embassy during this period 1996 or 97.  SIncxe then, that statement article 20 states that the US social security is taxed ONLY by the US govt.    IF you doubt me, just read the document id on       https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf   btw, there is an "_" between america and the e.pdf

btw, it will show a chart of all countries with Thailand and DTA click on United States of America  it will be article 20 about US Social security can be taxed only by the US.  If many people have this same problem after the tax season and get hammered by the rd all should contact the US embassy and complain that Thailand is ignoring this US treaty with the Thais.  If the thais wish to drop out they are required to give 6 months notice that they plan to do so and I don't recall seeing anything about that yet.  Then I too would consider leaving except I woud still have the LTR so no tax on foreign earned inocme remitted.

[jmd8800]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

False.  You file if your assessable income is over 60K, or 120K if married filing joint.  US social security is exempt by DTA, non-assessable, not reported.  You have no assessable income, do not need to file, nor would you need a TIN.

 

I assume your wife has been filing her own taxes as married filing separate, and you have not filed up til now.  Or has she been filing jointly for the allowances, and you didn't know?

 

You could either file jointly with your wife, you will have no income other than bank interest.  She could claim the spouse allowance, and probably also the handicapped allowance.  I don't know what documentation would be required for that.

 

Or you could file separate.  Assume you have a pink ID, so get it activated, then file a null return online.  When you do this you can claim a refund of bank interest withholding tax.

 

The handicap allowance is 190K.  You could claim that until you turn 65, and then claim the old age 190K allowance.  (only one)

 

***NOT AN EXPERT, NOT ADVICE, OPINION ONLY***

Sounds to me like you are giving advice.

[thesetat]

31 minutes ago, Presnock said:

btw, it will show a chart of all countries with Thailand and DTA click on United States of America  it will be article 20 about US Social security can be taxed only by the US.  If many people have this same problem after the tax season and get hammered by the rd all should contact the US embassy and complain that Thailand is ignoring this US treaty with the Thais.  If the thais wish to drop out they are required to give 6 months notice that they plan to do so and I don't recall seeing anything about that yet.  Then I too would consider leaving except I woud still have the LTR so no tax on foreign earned inocme remitted.

Sorry but i may be wrong. But i read today during my google searches that LTR are still required to file tax. I do not have time to find a link but you may want to check to be sure

[anrcaccount]

50 minutes ago, Presnock said:

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

No new laws began this year, either.

 

With your logic, if you were remitting your social security same year earned, you should have filed last year and the others before that.  

 

This is a prime example of why this whole "tax thing" is just ridiculous.  

the dta with the Us was signed off on by us ambassador ITOH,  I was assigned to the embassy during this period 1996 or 97.  SIncxe then, that statement article 20 states that the US social security is taxed ONLY by the US govt.    IF you doubt me, just read the document id on       https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf   btw, there is an "_" between america and the e.pdf

 

I know, that's why I said " with your logic" .

 

Meaning that, if he was trying to declare it this year, he should have also tried to declare it for many years previously.