Zelensky - what possessed you?

[theblether]

I've got to say this thread is very entertaining. 

 

You must be high if you think China is going to give nukes to Ukraine. Absolute Mad Hatter material. 

 

Amazing stuff. 

[captain_shane]

Just now, Lacessit said:

There was a time American goods were top quality, and sought after.

 

Then the bean counters moved in, and put your technicians and engineers in the back seat. Or on a dole queue.

 

You crapped in your own nest. Now you're doing it again.

We crapped in our nest by printing tons of money and giving it away for nothing. We crapped in our nest by allowing countries to tariff us (protecting their industries) while they get to sell to us with tariff free. The US is the one country on Earth that can go full Autarky, I don't think you "allies" understand that we WANT to be your friends but you're ingrates and you screech and moan about us and tell us we're going to collapse without you. None of you thank us for our military defense, none of you thank us for humanitarian aid, all you do is <deleted> on us. Some ally you really are.

[riclag]

44 minutes ago, jts-khorat said:

 

The Ukrainians have spoken about this before, so I personally think it is imminent: the US guaranteed their safety if they give up their nukes, but they will try to get new ones if the US fails to fulfill their obligation. If the technology does not come from France or the UK (unlikely), the logical other partner would be China. I think we will see diplomatic overtures start soon, and the Ukraine having a functioning nuke within the year.
 

Usually, the more difficult part than the nuke itself is the delivery vehicle. But as we have seen with the Crimean Bridge, a truck driven with a bomb on it would suffice. Lots of roads go to Moscow or St Petersburg or maybe just Kursk.

 

So Zelenskyy was right, the Americans will feel the repercussions of their betrayal. It was not a threat, it was a clear statement of fact, that Trump just toppled 80 years of national security doctrine of the US, possibly in a not repairable way.

Obama gave ukraine blankets cause he didn’t trust ukraine with Javelin’s and Or weapons.

Now you want nukes  for Ukraine!

 

https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/house/110331/documents/HMKP-116-JU00-20191211-SD994.pdf

 

[Bannoi]

I think too many people believe everything Trump says while some of it may be true most of it is absolute garbage.

 

Unfortunately he is destroying America in the process.

[riclag]

Just now, Bannoi said:

I think too many people believe everything Trump says while some of it may be true most of it is absolute garbage.

 

Unfortunately he is destroying America in the process.

What country you from

 

[WorriedNoodle]

15 hours ago, theblether said:

. What possessed you, Zelensky. What possessed you? 

What possessed you to think this was anything but a gangster style shake down? Trump was Vito Corleone from the Godfather trying to make Zelensky an offer he couldn't refuse, but Zelensky has higher morals in his left pinky than the entire Trump circus of clowns. Vance an utter disgrace to humanity.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Bannoi said:

I think too many people believe everything Trump says while some of it may be true most of it is absolute garbage.

 

Unfortunately he is destroying America in the process.

Yeah perhaps one percent of what comes out of his mouth is the truth.

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, steven100 said:

I am not leftist or right wing or whatever,  I just evaluate a common sense approach,   and everything tells me this Trump & Vance was a set up to get at Zelensky.  

 

They are morons for thinking the world would fall for it.   

By everything you mean leftist sound-bites? 

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, theblether said:

I've got to say this thread is very entertaining. 

 

You must be high if you think China is going to give nukes to Ukraine. Absolute Mad Hatter material. 

 

Amazing stuff. 

Yeah I can't see China doing that either.

 

[captain_shane]

Just now, WorriedNoodle said:

What possessed you to think this was anything but a gangster style shake down? Trump was Vito Corleone from the Godfather trying to make Zelensky an offer he couldn't refuse, but Zelensky has higher morals in his left pinky than the entire Trump circus of clowns. Vance an utter disgrace to humanity.

His morals just cost him the war. That's what you leftists refuse to understand. Being nice doesn't mean anything in the real world. Being nice has sort of worked since the establishment of NATO and the UN but it's extremely flimsy and isn't based on real human behavior. The fact is that might makes right. Russia is winning this war, Z himself admitted that. Ukraine will fail without US support, Z said this in the interview. There is no strategy for Ukraine to regain lost territory and keep it. 

How does the US benefit from continuing to fund this pointless war?

[Mavideol]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

History was made.

Very dark history.

This bully gang up attack was a trap totally planned in advance.

All decent Americans are deeply outraged and deeply embarassed but not necessarily surprised.

 

Zelensky was not prepared for the 2 scum bags and he took the bait, they had it all figured out, Zelensky should not have to fall into the trap, but he did stood up to 2 arrogant sob's

[Jingthing]

Just now, Mavideol said:

Zelensky was not prepared for the 2 scum bags and he took the bait, they had it all figured out, Zelensky should not have to fall into the trap, but he did stood up to 2 arrogant sob's

I don't think he had much of a choice really. If he had not pushed back to the fascist bullying AMBUSH, his own people would have instantly lost confidence in him. Trump has a domestic audience and so does Zelinsky. 

[steven100]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

By everything you mean leftist sound-bites? 

sorry Yellowtail, I just don't understand , in Australia we don't left or right, I just think of practical common sense.

[MicroB]

28 minutes ago, captain_shane said:

Yeah, a significant amount of that was spent defending EURO countries that refused to hold their end of the deal. Germany has averaged 1.1% defense spending for the last 20 years

 

Before 1990, it was 2.4%, above 3% (West Germany), and that was at a time when there were very strict limits where the West German Army could go.

You might be a bit too young, but Germany hasn't always been just Germany. There was a West Germany and an East Germany. In 1989, East Germany collapsed, mostly due to a completely collapsed economy. West Germany inherited a decrepit (as it turned out to be) but vast East German army, and troops suddenly without a country. You probably don't realise, but East Germany was what people call Communist. So State Enterprises collapsed. Unemployment was 20%. This created an enormous burden on the West Germany economy, with the population increasing overnight by 25%.

 

Imagine the US having to absorb, overnight, the entire population of Mexico, that would have a very negative effect on fiscal policy, and probably the US would have to make hard spending choices. However, since you are an expert and maybe native Russian speaker, judging by your post remarking on the translation what Zelensky said, you might consider what would happen to Russia if overnight Armenia, Turkmenistan, and Tajikastan (spelling might be off) all joined, in 24 hours, Russia as a single unitary state. There will be an impact on economics.

 

German defence spending is too low. They were ordered, by essentially the occupying powers, to scrap most of the East German military equipment (there were strict rules in place that dictated the size of the new German military). That lead to fields of T72s, BMP3s, but also West German Leopards and Marder IFVs waiting for the scrapyard, not even allowed to be exported.

 

German defence spending has been rising. It is too low. But, if you are, as a Russian, concerned about American defence spending levels, you have to consider, given the DoD loses so much, is it s a mirage, and the real level of spending, in terms of equipment actually available. is actually much much less than 2%. Western Europe, despite on paper less spending, somehow manages to have a lot more soldiers in uniform. You also have to consider the 10% of budget sucked up maintaining ~6000 or so nuclear weapons. Not sure how that compares to your own country.

[steven100]

22 minutes ago, theblether said:

I've got to say this thread is very entertaining. 

 

You must be high if you think China is going to give nukes to Ukraine. Absolute Mad Hatter material. 

 

Amazing stuff. 

oh'  you decided to come back ...   it's a stupid thread ... not sure why you wanted to stir up antagonism by posting it, i'll bet it gets shut down.   

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't think he had much of a choice really. If he had not pushed back to the fascist bullying AMBUSH, his own people would have instantly lost confidence in him. Trump has a domestic audience and so does Zelinsky. 

It was supposed to be a photo-op with everyone signing an agreement they were all on board with. 

 

Anyone that thinks it was supposed to be a negotiation in a room full of press is a fool. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, steven100 said:

sorry Yellowtail, I just don't understand , in Australia we don't left or right, I just think of practical common sense.

Indeed

[Lacessit]

25 minutes ago, captain_shane said:

We crapped in our nest by printing tons of money and giving it away for nothing. We crapped in our nest by allowing countries to tariff us (protecting their industries) while they get to sell to us with tariff free. The US is the one country on Earth that can go full Autarky, I don't think you "allies" understand that we WANT to be your friends but you're ingrates and you screech and moan about us and tell us we're going to collapse without you. None of you thank us for our military defense, none of you thank us for humanitarian aid, all you do is <deleted> on us. Some ally you really are.

Let me know when you have finished throwing your toys out of the pram.

[MicroB]

Just now, steven100 said:

sorry Yellowtail, I just don't understand , in Australia we don't left or right, I just think of practical common sense.

 

 

I think people who revert to "Leftist" in discussion are just as lazy in the brain as those who use "Rightist". Australian politics is kinds of similar to the UK, that generally parties win elections from the centre. It used t be that case for the US, that we used to joke that there wasn't really all that much difference between  the Democrats and Republicans. And by and large, thats still the case, except those who want to create artificial division. And the person largely responsible for that sits in Moscow. He had a cushy little job in East Germany repressing anti-communists, which probably would have earned him a decent Lada, with the 1500cc engine, and a Dacha down on the Black Sea. Then his boss gave Germany back their country, and he was sacked. He's been stewing ever since, Make Russia Great Again (based on a largely imagined past) and give the West a taste of the post-Communist collapse.

 

He does both by sewing division. Our governments and economies, so he hopes, collapse in a pile of corruption (nothing good will come out of Musk's bonfire, except a complete distrust of government), plus show our societies are no better than his brand of Communist-Stalinist-Tsarist politics to other countries, thus restoring Russia's "rightful" position as a global Superpower (this is behind the wheeze in Syria, where by backing Assad, he would persuade the Russian way was better than the American way, assuming that the world is always black/white).

 

30 years on, its worked, with Americans back believing about Reds under the Bed again, but perversely really liking Russia. Leading to this absurdity by two older pillocks who really should have known better.

 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

 

I think people who revert to "Leftist" in discussion are just as lazy in the brain as those who use "Rightist". Australian politics is kinds of similar to the UK, that generally parties win elections from the centre. It used t be that case for the US, that we used to joke that there wasn't really all that much difference between  the Democrats and Republicans. And by and large, thats still the case, except those who want to create artificial division. And the person largely responsible for that sits in Moscow. He had a cushy little job in East Germany repressing anti-communists, which probably would have earned him a decent Lada, with the 1500cc engine, and a Dacha down on the Black Sea. Then his boss gave Germany back their country, and he was sacked. He's been stewing ever since, Make Russia Great Again (based on a largely imagined past) and give the West a taste of the post-Communist collapse.

 

He does both by sewing division. Our governments and economies, so he hopes, collapse in a pile of corruption (nothing good will come out of Musk's bonfire, except a complete distrust of government), plus show our societies are no better than his brand of Communist-Stalinist-Tsarist politics to other countries, thus restoring Russia's "rightful" position as a global Superpower (this is behind the wheeze in Syria, where by backing Assad, he would persuade the Russian way was better than the American way, assuming that the world is always black/white).

 

30 years on, its worked, with Americans back believing about Reds under the Bed again, but perversely really liking Russia. Leading to this absurdity by two older pillocks who really should have known better.

 

 

Except your "center" makes you a leftist in the US. 

 

 

[jts-khorat]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah I can't see China doing that either.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

But Russia is already, just as we speak, giving ballistic missile technology to North Korea. And this is the state the US voted together in the latest UN resolution.

 

I bet, that if Trump goes on like this, in a year the political landscape of the World will be unrecognizable.

 

Thinking geopolitically, what better cover for Chinese expansionism, to have Korea and Japan bound up in a war with North Korea and Russia bound up in a war against a nuclear-capability Ukraine? Who knows where the US will stand then?

 

I at least see really dark times ahead, and if I would be Chinese, I would throw the fox in the henhouse just to see in which directions the chicken will scatter.

[rough diamond]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah perhaps one percent of what comes out of his mouth is the truth.

That much?

[MicroB]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Except your "center" makes you a leftist in the US. 

 

 

 

Not according to my Republican American friends in Missouri.

 

Putin has planted a proverbial worm in your brain that is very Orwellian. Left is Right. Black is White. New speak. By your current standards, you consider Maggie Thatcher, who won from the centre, to be a Communist. You're a victim of KGB spycraft. I feel pity.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, MicroB said:

 

Not according to my Republican American friends in Missouri.

I bet. 

Just now, MicroB said:

 

Putin has planted a proverbial worm in your brain that is very Orwellian. Left is Right. Black is White. New speak. By your current standards, you consider Maggie Thatcher, who won from the centre, to be a Communist. You're a victim of KGB spycraft. I feel pity.

That all you have? 

[MRMOUSE]

13 hours ago, hotsun said:

But a million times less than the US. Vance was referring to that

Would trade health care lack of guns decent working conditions etc etc for your so called free speech.

[frank83628]

4 hours ago, steven100 said:

I wonder will they have another meeting or has Zelensky gone back to Ukraine.   ?

He's been banished m, in the UK now with weak specky stamer 

[MicroB]

21 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It was supposed to be a photo-op with everyone signing an agreement they were all on board with. 

 

Anyone that thinks it was supposed to be a negotiation in a room full of press is a fool. 

 

 

 

Yes, it was a Photo-Op. At first I thought it was that imbecile Vance who was trying to spoil it, given the actions of Musk the day before. But the fact that the question on the Ukrainian President's attire (pretty rude thing to ask, would never have asked that of Churchill's Siren Suit) came from MJG's toy boy, of all people, made me smell a rat, that it was contrived. Get Zelensky annoyed about something, then interupt the US President to further rile him, knowing that it would initiate a similar reaction from the US President (both men are obviously volatile personalities, with similar limitations in comprehension). Note how Vance then sat back, with an innocent but smug look on his face. He tried it with the British Prime Minister; there was a perfectly amicable interaction between the two leaders, possibly even genuine warmth, but Vance decided to interject with his bizarre, off-topic observation, particularly when he referenced Apple. I think he was trying to rile the US President, and have that as the headline. And Vance kept referring not to the "media" or "international media" but to the "American media".

 

Who's idea was it for these Oval Office meetings. I don't recall them 2017-20?

 

Almost like someone with Psy-Ops was involved stage managing things.

 

[MicroB]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I bet. 

That all you have? 

 

I win the bet. You owe me $1000.

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, MicroB said:

 

I win the bet. You owe me $1000.

Okay, I'll be in Grandview in June, you can pick it up then. 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

Yes, it was a Photo-Op. At first I thought it was that imbecile Vance who was trying to spoil it, given the actions of Musk the day before. But the fact that the question on the Ukrainian President's attire (pretty rude thing to ask, would never have asked that of Churchill's Siren Suit) came from MJG's toy boy, of all people, made me smell a rat, that it was contrived. Get Zelensky annoyed about something, then interupt the US President to further rile him, knowing that it would initiate a similar reaction from the US President (both men are obviously volatile personalities, with similar limitations in comprehension). Note how Vance then sat back, with an innocent but smug look on his face. He tried it with the British Prime Minister; there was a perfectly amicable interaction between the two leaders, possibly even genuine warmth, but Vance decided to interject with his bizarre, off-topic observation, particularly when he referenced Apple. I think he was trying to rile the US President, and have that as the headline. And Vance kept referring not to the "media" or "international media" but to the "American media".

 

Who's idea was it for these Oval Office meetings. I don't recall them 2017-20?

 

Almost like someone with Psy-Ops was involved stage managing things.

 

Cleary you did not see the whole thing,