Will there ever be a safe vaccine?

[gamb00ler]

42 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The extra 12 you've had, don't appear to given you any extra benefits over my 7 as we're both still alive.

This statement, despite very serious competition, is a top contender for most unfounded comment.

[Lacessit]

Just now, BritManToo said:

Tetanus is the interesting one, bacteria is common in soil and animal poop, infecting the smallest break in skin.

 

So I spend every day gardening and touching rabbit poop. Hands and arms always getting cut and scratched from plants, teeth and claws. I don't even bother cleaning any wounds, just wipe the blood off.

 

Why aren't I dead?

Is it like allergies, only some people at risk?

Does it only affect people with damaged immune systems?

Is the bacteria not that prevalent?

 

How does science explain why I haven't died from tetanus?

 

AFAIK the tetanus vaccine is capable of lasting for up to 30 years. I have only had two in my lifetime. One childhood, one in my 60's.

 

IMO you don't understand immunity. The protection conferred by the vaccine arms your immune system.

 

The tetanus bacterium does not produce symptoms. That is caused by a toxin the bacterium manufactures. Tetanus toxoid, a weakened version, trains the immune system to produce antibodies to fight the toxin.

 

Doctors recommend a booster every ten years. They are like engineers, they build in safety factors.

 

Because you only had the shots when you were young, every time you cut or scratch yourself now, you are flirting with illness or death. Up to you.

 

 

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Because you only had the shots when you were young, every time you cut or scratch yourself now, you are flirting with illness or death. Up to you.

At age 70 my only future is illness and death.

There's no escape, I only hope the illness will be short, and the death quick.

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Never, I don't believe in vaccines or the intrusive medical treatment of disease.

Wait until you get an inguinal hernia or carpal tunnel syndrome, you'll probably change your mind quite quickly.

 

I would have carked it about 20 years ago without intrusive medical treatment.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

At age 70 my only future is illness and death.

There's no escape, I only hope the illness will be short, and the death quick.

I am 82. Your attitude will very probably be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Wait until you get an inguinal hernia or carpal tunnel syndrome, you'll probably change your mind quite quickly.

 

I would have carked it about 20 years ago without intrusive medical treatment.

Neither of those is a disease!

I'm OK with intrusive medical treatments to fix accident damage.

 

But are you claiming you could have died from carpal tunnel syndrome?

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am 82. Your attitude will very probably be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

How long do you expect to have left?

I'm totally OK to die tomorrow, I've had a great time, nothing more I really want to do.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Neither of those is a disease!

I'm OK with intrusive medical treatments to fix accident damage.

 

But are you claiming you could have died from carpal tunnel syndrome?

No. I can tell you the pain is so excruciating it makes you wonder if life is worth living.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

How long do you expect to have left?

I'm totally OK to die tomorrow, I've had a great time, nothing more I really want to do.

My parents both died at age 83, after doing their best to kill themselves with tobacco and alcohol. I don't smoke or drink.

 

The average lifespan for Australians is 83.

 

I am not concerned about dying. I want to continue to enjoy life, as long as it has quality. When that's gone, so am I.

 

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

My parents both died at age 83, after doing their best to kill themselves with tobacco and alcohol. I don't smoke or drink.

The average lifespan for Australians is 83.

I am not concerned about dying. I want to continue to enjoy life, as long as it has quality. When that's gone, so am I.

Statistically if 83 were the average lifespan, there should be more people over 83 around than under 83 around.

(because there aren't any living to 160 in order to compensate for those that died age 3)

 

I don't find this to be true in any way, most of my pals (and nearly all my close relatives) died between 50 and 65, so from personal observation the average lifespan for men would be about 67 years old. 

 

Where do you think all those over 83 in Australia are hiding? 

List all the people you personally know that are living and over 83, then list all the people you've known that died before reaching 83.

[gamb00ler]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Never, I don't believe in vaccines or the intrusive medical treatment of disease.

IF you ever get a severely infected appendix, go ahead... wait it out.... and die when it bursts.  But... I am certain the extreme pain will force you to seek a Dr.'s advice which of course will involve an intrusion via scalpel into your abdomen.  All it takes is blockage of the exit from the extra and useless little pocket of your intestine called the appendix.  About 5-10% of the population have that problem.  It most frequently occurs in teenage males.  Since it involves infection it would be classified as disease.

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am older than all my friends. The age gap is 2-5 years. One I had in CM passed away six months ago, age 92.

There you go, at 82 (below the average life expectancy) you're older than all your friends.

So where have all these old living people gone that pull the average up to 83?

 

 

[DezLez]

2 hours ago, Stiddle Mump said:

I think it is your logic that is twisted. There have been various claims without any evidence.  

Just like all YOUR posts.

[gamb00ler]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Can't say that, as my comparison only show 12 to have been completely ineffective.

If X's 12 had made a difference, I should have caught some of them.

Shirley you must be good at something.... it sure ain't logic, science, statistics and medicine.  Maybe stick to politics and religion where nonsense is perhaps less obvious.

[kwilco]

21 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Just create an NEJM account and read Dr. Stanley Plotkin's paper, which reveals the critical failings of vaccine safety studies. Or have a look at this summary below.

And as you are clearly a critical thinker, ask yourself why this paper is not covered by maintream media, taking into account the billions in fines the pharmaceutical industry has paid over the years for crimes ranging from misleading consumers to hiding data or influence peddling for their benefit.

 

 

 

I guess it was only a matter of time - You've shot yourself in the foot!!

The main thing your post does is show how limited your understanding is of the article and how true science works – however it also demonstrates  how some anti-vaccine activists are now wildly misrepresenting this recent article in the New England Journal of Medicine by Dr. Stanley Plotkin — one of the world’s most respected vaccinologists — claiming he has “admitted” vaccines were never properly tested.
This is completely false.
What the article actually says is that vaccine safety studies are already extensive — but could always be improved, especially post-licensure, with better funding and coordination. That’s a call for more investment in science, not an admission of failure.
Vaccines are among the most thoroughly studied medical products in existence. That’s why, globally, they’ve saved hundreds of millions of lives.
Claims that Plotkin “capitulated” or confessed to wrongdoing are pure propaganda — a cynical attempt to twist nuance into conspiracy. The article doesn’t say vaccines are unsafe; it says we can always do better, and we should.
 Read the article for yourself:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2402379
Science evolves. Honest scientists seek improvement — not denial.

 

[kwilco]

Worth remembering: if we’re going to quote chiropractors like Kevin Stillwagon on vaccine science, we should also know who the real experts are.

Take Dr. Stanley Plotkin, for example—
He’s the actual doctor who developed the rubella vaccine (used in the MMR), helped create vaccines for rabies, rotavirus, and more, and literally wrote the global reference textbook, Plotkin’s Vaccines. He’s advised the CDC, WHO, and major vaccine makers for decades. No conspiracy, no politics—just science that has saved millions of lives.

Plotkin’s lifetime of peer-reviewed work stands in stark contrast to fear-based claims from non-experts with ideological agendas.

 When it comes to science pretence of some on this thread just doesn't work...

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

There you go, at 82 (below the average life expectancy) you're older than all your friends.

So where have all these old living people gone that pull the average up to 83?

 

 

I think you missed or ignored my statement about women.

 

The only friend I have in that category is my GF. She is 23 years younger

 

There's your older living people you've got a bee in your bonnet about.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, Stiddle Mump said:

Hopefully, Red's posts will allow some discussion on the subject. 

Hopefully, it will encourage AN members, and guests, to do some research, before blindly supporting the MSM line.

Hopefully it will lead to better formed medical choices for themselves and their children.

Hardly! Not with This Level of Pseudoscience

Let’s be honest: what Red Phoenix and Stillwagon are pushing isn’t a “discussion” — it’s an ideological rant dressed up as science.

Claiming that no vaccine can ever be safe is not science — it’s dogma.
Dr. Stillwagon (a chiropractor, not an immunologist) offers zero evidence, just sweeping claims and recycled anti-vaccine talking points. His idea that “natural infection is better” has already been debunked countless times — especially when it comes to diseases that kill, cripple, or burden society.

Stiddle Mump says we should "question the MSM" and make better “medical choices.”
Let’s unpack that:

What is the "MSM line"? That polio was worth eliminating? That measles vaccines work?

What exactly are these "better choices"? Vitamin D and vibes?

This isn’t critical thinking. It's a conspiracy echo chamber pretending to be a debate.
Want a real discussion? Then cite real evidence. Engage with real science. And stop pretending that contrarian YouTube videos are research.

Vaccines aren't perfect — nothing in medicine is — but they're one of the most life-saving tools humanity has ever developed. If you want to reject them, fine. But don’t insult everyone’s intelligence by pretending this is some brave new truth being uncovered.

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'm OK with intrusive medical treatments to fix accident damage

so how wold you treat a dog bite? Rabies vaccine or how abpout tetanus? - After an accident, the primary injection administered is typically a tetanus shot (or booster) if the individual's vaccination status is not up-to-date. For very dirty wounds, or if the individual is at high risk for tetanus, they may also receive tetanus immunoglobulin (HTIG or HNIG), which provides immediate protection

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

There you go, at 82 (below the average life expectancy) you're older than all your friends.

So where have all these old living people gone that pull the average up to 83?

 

 

When my parent went into a nursing home you realise there's this whole world of people who you don't often see. There's old and then there's nursing home old. 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

16 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Is that the same Pfizer which was fined $2.3 billion for marketing a drug with the intent to deceive and mislead the public? Just checking as it is my understanding we are into "reliable sources" on this forum.

 

Pfizer Hit with Largest Criminal Fine in US History

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/criminal-defense/pfizer-hit-with-largest-criminal-fine-in-us-history/

It was an attempt at humour. I know Pfizer for you guys is like garlic to a vampire. 

[kwilco]

23 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Scientific data is increasingly indicating that the Covid shots actually impair the immune system. This should be of interest to you:

 

A new study titled, Post-vaccination IgG4 and IgG2 class switch associates with increased risk of SARS-CoV-2 infections, marks the seventh study to show an increased risk of infection after mRNA injection while also revealing the likely underlying mechanism behind this phenomenon

[…]

These findings suggest a potential association between IgG4 induction by mRNA vaccination and a higher risk of breakthrough infection, warranting further investigation into vaccination strategies to ensure sustained protection.

 

https://www.thefocalpoints.com/p/breaking-study-covid-19-mrna-injections

Sdly you don't actually know what the "immune system" is - it's not some"thing" that gets damaged at all...

“The immune system doesn’t need vaccines” sounds clever — until you actually understand what the immune system is.

It’s not some magical shield that always works perfectly. It’s a massive, messy system of cells, proteins, and organs constantly reacting to threats. Sometimes it wins. Sometimes it overreacts. Sometimes it fails completely — that’s how people die of infections. Vaccines don’t “replace” your immune system — they train parts of  it. They safely teach your immune memory how to recognize real threats before they strike.

Saying “we don’t need vaccines because we have an immune system” is like saying you don’t need a seatbelt because your reflexes are good. Great — until they aren’t.

Your immune system is amazing. Vaccines just give it a head start.

[kwilco]

15 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

The paper is from NEJM, which a prominent pro-vaxxer of this forum has cited as a quality, reliable source in this very thread. If you guys actually put your money where your mouths are, you would read and assess it dispassionately, instead of coming up with increasingly convoluted (and quite frankly, amusing) reasons to preemptively dismiss it.

 

As for media coverage (or lack thereof), you should definitely be asking yourself these critical questions. I'll let the Secretary of Health and Human Services explain it to you. Oh but wait, he's 'insane', isn't he? Can't watch that then, can we? Let's stick to typing "Are vaccines safe?" on Grok!

 

"All the major institutions of our society have been captured by the (medical) industry.

[…]

They advertise because they wanna control the content. If you look at Anderson Cooper or Lester Holt or Jake Tapper, their paycheck is being paid by the network but their salaries are actually coming from pharmaceutical companies, and they know that.

And they know that they've got to toe the line and they've got the frighten us about infectious diseases. They've got to make us all comply with the pharmaceutical mandates, and they're not giving us real news. They're not asking the questions that they ought to be asking. There's no skepticism.

And if you look at these new shows, like twenty years ago, they were saying, yeah, there are problems with vaccines or these other drugs.

They will never do that today."

 

 

 

You really don't understand the issues with "big Pharma" - you should read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre

[kwilco]

16 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

The paper is from NEJM, which a prominent pro-vaxxer of this forum has cited as a quality, reliable source in this very thread. If you guys actually put your money where your mouths are, you would read and assess it dispassionately, instead of coming up with increasingly convoluted (and quite frankly, amusing) reasons to preemptively dismiss it.

 

As for media coverage (or lack thereof), you should definitely be asking yourself these critical questions. I'll let the Secretary of Health and Human Services explain it to you. Oh but wait, he's 'insane', isn't he? Can't watch that then, can we? Let's stick to typing "Are vaccines safe?" on Grok!

 

"All the major institutions of our society have been captured by the (medical) industry.

[…]

They advertise because they wanna control the content. If you look at Anderson Cooper or Lester Holt or Jake Tapper, their paycheck is being paid by the network but their salaries are actually coming from pharmaceutical companies, and they know that.

And they know that they've got to toe the line and they've got the frighten us about infectious diseases. They've got to make us all comply with the pharmaceutical mandates, and they're not giving us real news. They're not asking the questions that they ought to be asking. There's no skepticism.

And if you look at these new shows, like twenty years ago, they were saying, yeah, there are problems with vaccines or these other drugs.

They will never do that today."

 

 

 

you quite simply don't understand your own quotes - 

[Lacessit]

46 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You really don't understand the issues with "big Pharma" - you should read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre

The problem in America with Big Pharma is not the efficacy of medications, it's cost.

 

My personal experience - I had one year's worth of a targeted inhibitor called Venclexta. It is not available in Thailand.

 

In Australia, the cost was AUD 100.

 

According to Sheryl, the cost in America would have been USD 70,000. AI (Gemini ) puts it even higher at USD 100,000.

 

 

[kwilco]

 

Many participants in this discussion seem to struggle with understanding the wealth of genuine, peer-reviewed medical research on this topic. Instead, the conversation often gets clouded by paranoia, catchy soundbites, and cognitive biases rather than clear facts. What’s more, there appears to be a lack of even the basic tools needed to grasp an accurate overview of the issues involved.

It’s clear that very few have ventured beyond headlines and simplified snippets, which only adds to confusion. That’s why I strongly encourage everyone to push past any hesitation about tackling complex material and read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre (ISBN 978-0-00-728487-0). This book offers a clear, engaging, and well-informed guide to understanding how science really works — and how to spot misinformation in health and medicine.

If you want to join this conversation from a place of knowledge rather than guesswork, Bad Science is a perfect place to start.

 

Ben Goldacre—a doctor with a dry wit and a sharp scalpel, takes apart the nonsense we’re sold in the name of health. Bad Science exposes bogus claims from homeopaths, detox peddlers, nutrition “gurus,” and snake oil salesmen. But he doesn’t stop there.
Goldacre also tears into Big Pharma, showing how drug companies can be just as guilty—burying negative trial results, distorting evidence, and gaming the system to boost profits. He argues that bad science isn’t just an alt-med problem—it’s systemic, and the only cure is transparency, proper trials, and public understanding of how science really works.
Importantly, he rejects the flawed logic that says “because Big Pharma behaves badly, all mainstream medicine—including vaccines—must be fraudulent.” That’s not skepticism, he argues, it’s just bad reasoning.
What you’ll  find out is  why homeopathy, detox, and miracle cures are a scam. How pharma firms distort clinical evidence. Why evidence-based medicine matters. How the media helps spread bad science. How to think critically and spot scientific BS – very little of this is shown on this thread
If you care about real health, not hype, Bad Science is essential reading.

 

[kwilco]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Venclexta

Is available in Thailand try the name Venetoclax.

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

I guess it was only a matter of time - You've shot yourself in the foot!!

The main thing your post does is show how limited your understanding is of the article and how true science works – however it also demonstrates  how some anti-vaccine activists are now wildly misrepresenting this recent article in the New England Journal of Medicine by Dr. Stanley Plotkin — one of the world’s most respected vaccinologists — claiming he has “admitted” vaccines were never properly tested.
This is completely false.
What the article actually says is that vaccine safety studies are already extensive — but could always be improved, especially post-licensure, with better funding and coordination. That’s a call for more investment in science, not an admission of failure.
Vaccines are among the most thoroughly studied medical products in existence. That’s why, globally, they’ve saved hundreds of millions of lives.
Claims that Plotkin “capitulated” or confessed to wrongdoing are pure propaganda — a cynical attempt to twist nuance into conspiracy. The article doesn’t say vaccines are unsafe; it says we can always do better, and we should.
 Read the article for yourself:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2402379
Science evolves. Honest scientists seek improvement — not denial.

 

 

I agree with your interpretation. Saying that vaccines are not properly studied after having previously stated they were is an admission of having lied, rather than failure. Nothing new from the pharmaceutical cartel, though. They did not fail in their endeavour, in fact they succeeded spectacularly.

 

The good news is that proper studies are underway.

[kwilco]

31 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The problem in America with Big Pharma is not the efficacy of medications, it's cost.

 

My personal experience - I had one year's worth of a targeted inhibitor called Venclexta. It is not available in Thailand.

 

In Australia, the cost was AUD 100.

 

According to Sheryl, the cost in America would have been USD 70,000. AI (Gemini ) puts it even higher at USD 100,000.

 

 

yes - read the book! I wasn't addressing you in particular - the problem is that inside every conspiracy theory is a germ of truth.... in this case they hear about the pharmacy industry which has a lot of problems, give it a soundbite nickname and then try and attach all their cockamamie to it. THe logic is indefensible. There is a lot written on this and Goldacre's book is the "gold standard" for getting the message across accurately to the general public book of the year for tboth Times and Independant and It reached the Top 10 bestseller list for Amazon Books. The book was also shortlisted for the 2009 Samuel Johnson Prize

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

you quite simply don't understand your own quotes - 

 

Buy you are here to explain them to me