Jump to content

Labour Whip Resigns in Protest Against Starmer’s Welfare Reforms


Recommended Posts

Posted

Well at least it seems that Labour are coming to terms with the fact that you cannot have open borders and a functioning welfare state - you can only have one or the other.   It's a shame that they have decided to continue the open borders policy and do not want to make the savings by deporting foreign nationals who claim benefits and/or defending the borders rather than supporting the British nationals that need welfare, but it is what it is.   

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
  • Thumbs Up 2
  • Thumbs Down 3
Posted
5 hours ago, James105 said:

Well at least it seems that Labour are coming to terms with the fact that you cannot have open borders and a functioning welfare state - you can only have one or the other.

 

If that were the case then the welfare state would have ceased to function while we were a member of the EU.

 

It didn't. 

 

5 hours ago, James105 said:

 

   It's a shame that they have decided to continue the open borders policy and do not want to make the savings by deporting foreign nationals who claim benefits and/or defending the borders rather than supporting the British nationals that need welfare, but it is what it is.   

 

There is no 'open borders policy'; in fact (almost) the exact opposite. Immigration to the UK is more tightly controlled now than at any time since the early '90s as a result of Brexit and the loss of freedom of movement.

  • Thumbs Down 1
  • Haha 1
Posted
1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

 

This says different

 

United-Kingdom-Net-Migration-Net-Change-in-Migration-2025-06-21-17-04.jpeg.6eba6c8ec94ee272af7d90254bf05d3a.jpeg
 
 
the numbers reduced significantly in  2024 due to the Tories cutting family / spouse Visas.

 

"An open border is a border that enables free movement of people and often of goods between jurisdictions with no restrictions on movement and is lacking a border control" (Wikipedia)

 

By definition, the UK does NOT now have an 'Open Borders policy' as immigration from all countries is subject to conditions being met.

 

As I implied, the UK did have an 'Open Borders policy' (with 27 other nations) when we were a member of the EU, and that at least partially explains the overall increase in immigration numbers between 1990 and 2020. However, as we are obviously no longer an EU member, the increase in numbers since 2020 cannot be attributed to an 'Open Borders' policy.

  • Thumbs Down 2
Posted
5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

50,000 Dinghy Divers in the last year say otherwise.

 

It might not be " Official Policy "  but it is an open border nonetheless.

 

Governments - both Tory and Labour - have tried to stop illegal immigration.

 

I am talking about legal immigration: A (limited) 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are not mutually exclusive situations.

  • Thumbs Down 1
Posted
2 hours ago, RayC said:

Governments - both Tory and Labour - have tried to stop illegal immigration.

 

Have they really ?
 

Rwanda might have work on the deterrent factor, if Lawfare and Labour hadn't stopped it.

 

Labours, Smash the Gangs, is an abject failure.

 

2 hours ago, RayC said:

I am talking about legal immigration: A (limited) 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are not mutually exclusive situations.

 

How can a legal immigration system be working. When 1 million foreigners are paid £7.5 Billion a year in welfare benefits ?
 

These figures do not include Illegal Immigrants.

 

Neither legal migration Policy or the Welfare State Policy is worth the paper that they are written on.

 

Not much in the UK at Government level is worth the paper it is written on, hence the reason the UK is clinging on at the S bend and in danger of flushing down it completely.

Posted

Someone has to take hit to pay for all the immigrants.

 

He has already taken the fuel allowance from the pensioners and now he is taking welfare from the disabled.

 

He loves to target the weak. No wonder even his own party hate him.  

  • Thumbs Down 1
Posted
12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Have they really ?
 

Rwanda might have work on the deterrent factor, if Lawfare and Labour hadn't stopped it.

 

Labours, Smash the Gangs, is an abject failure.

 

 

How can a legal immigration system be working. When 1 million foreigners are paid £7.5 Billion a year in welfare benefits ?
 

These figures do not include Illegal Immigrants.

 

Neither legal migration Policy or the Welfare State Policy is worth the paper that they are written on.

 

Not much in the UK at Government level is worth the paper it is written on, hence the reason the UK is clinging on at the S bend and in danger of flushing down it completely.

 

You are obviously perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my points which are: 1) the UK does not operate an 'Open Borders' immigration policy and 2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive.

 

  • Thumbs Down 1
Posted
10 hours ago, RayC said:

You are obviously perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my points which are:

 

Let's look at your points in a little more detail

 

10 hours ago, RayC said:

1) the UK does not operate an 'Open Borders' immigration policy

 

Whether they operate an " Open Borders Immigration Policy " is neither here nor there.

 

The facts speak for themselves.

 

Legal migration. See graph above.

 

Illegal migration. 20,000 this year already, 50,000 since Labour came to power.

 

Whatever way you want to look at, this is not a " Controlled Border Policy "

 

10 hours ago, RayC said:

2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive.

 

We do not have a " Functioning " welfare system. To try and pretend otherwise, is deluded in the extreme.

 

1 million foreigners, claiming £7.5 Billion a year in benefits, tells me that there is something very wrong with both the Immigration Policy and the Welfare Policy.

 

To put that into a bit of perspective.

 

No idea if Thailand has the equivalent of DWP Offices. But I can just imagine the reaction I would get if I rocked up at one and said give me benefits.

 

It would be ID  and deported.

Posted
11 hours ago, RayC said:

 

You are obviously perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my points which are: 1) the UK does not operate an 'Open Borders' immigration policy and 2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive.

 

 

Open borders and a functioning welfare state are indeed mutually exclusive.  Denmark published the figures that the UK are too afraid to admit.  You could probably get away with an open border policy that allowed westerners from western nations to freely move between countries, but that is not what is happening is it?  

 

image.png.11ee74e79cb254d49811b58fe04b5474.png

Posted
11 hours ago, RayC said:

2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive.

 

Classic socialism.

 

Spending other people's money on their vanity projects to appease their white guilt, until it runs out and then being voted out of office. 

 

The evidence is clear. They have stopped pensioners fuel allowance and cut welfare for the disabled while spending billions on immigrants. If they could fund it all they would. 

 

Fortunately they will be a one term government. Like most socialist governments they will do tremendous damage during that one term. 

 

Like Thatcher said. The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

 

I'm guessing you were never a huge tax payer though. Recipients of benefits of the welfare state tend to like them more than those who pay for them. 

  • Agree 1
Posted
15 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

50,000 Dinghy Divers in the last year say otherwise.

 

It might not be " Official Policy "  but it is an open border nonetheless.

It may however, be part of a "turn a Nelson blind eye" policy.

Posted
12 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Someone has to take hit to pay for all the immigrants.

 

He has already taken the fuel allowance from the pensioners and now he is taking welfare from the disabled.

 

He loves to target the weak. No wonder even his own party hate him.  

 

Cue shadow ...3....2....1

Posted
4 hours ago, billd766 said:

It may however, be part of a "turn a Nelson blind eye" policy.

 

That is exactly what it is.

 

Clueless, spineless, gutless, too scared to upset people, poor excuses for human being

 

And that's just Politicians.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Posted
12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Let's look at your points in a little more detail

 

 

Whether they operate an " Open Borders Immigration Policy " is neither here nor there.

 

The facts speak for themselves.

 

Legal migration. See graph above.

 

Illegal migration. 20,000 this year already, 50,000 since Labour came to power.

 

Whatever way you want to look at, this is not a " Controlled Border Policy "

 

The existing UK immigration policies may not be working, but whatever way you look at it the UK does NOT operate an 'Open Borders' policy.

 

You can argue until the cows come home but that is a FACT.

 

12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

We do not have a " Functioning " welfare system. To try and pretend otherwise, is deluded in the extreme.

 

1 million foreigners, claiming £7.5 Billion a year in benefits, tells me that there is something very wrong with both the Immigration Policy and the Welfare Policy.

 

The UK welfare state - while far from perfect - has not collapsed. It functions.

 

12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

To put that into a bit of perspective.

 

No idea if Thailand has the equivalent of DWP Offices. But I can just imagine the reaction I would get if I rocked up at one and said give me benefits.

 

It would be ID  and deported.

 

Neither here nor there. Completely irrelevant.

  • Haha 1
Posted
On 6/21/2025 at 7:53 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

How can a legal immigration system be working. When 1 million foreigners are paid £7.5 Billion a year in welfare benefits ?
 

These figures do not include Illegal Immigrants.

 


You keep banging on about that.  And you keep failing to back it up with a link. Is that because the figure is for households with at least one foreign national, not £7.5b being claimed by foreign nationals? It is completely different.

Usually when people throw out huge figures with no evidence it is because they have an agenda and providing a link to the source would show it is hugely exaggerated. Erm, yeah, seems that is true.

And only foreign nationals who have gained Indefinite Leave to Remain, settled status, or refugee status can claim benefits—typically after 5 years, they are not just handed out willy nilly.

If you want to be taken seriously be honest about your numbers.

Posted
23 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Someone has to take hit to pay for all the immigrants.

 

He has already taken the fuel allowance from the pensioners and now he is taking welfare from the disabled.

 

He loves to target the weak. No wonder even his own party hate him.  


Unlike the Tories who love the weak and the poor and would never mock them or anything.

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kay-mason-billig-norfolk-tory-35424539

 

 

Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 20.33.17.png

Posted
11 hours ago, James105 said:

 

Open borders and a functioning welfare state are indeed mutually exclusive. 

 

No they are not and it is completely irrational to suggest that they are.

 

'Mutually exclusive' means that two things cannot exist at the same time. The fact that welfare states exist and function in 27 EU states where open borders exist proves that they can co-exist. QED.

 

11 hours ago, James105 said:

 

Denmark published the figures that the UK are too afraid to admit.  You could probably get away with an open border policy that allowed westerners from western nations to freely move between countries, but that is not what is happening is it?  

 

image.png.11ee74e79cb254d49811b58fe04b5474.png

 

So you now agree that an open borders policy and a welfare state can co-exist. 

 

You're correct: The UK does not have an 'Open Borders' policy. 

 

I'm pleased that you now agree with my original points.

Posted
11 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Classic socialism.

 

Spending other people's money on their vanity projects to appease their white guilt, until it runs out and then being voted out of office. 

 

The evidence is clear. They have stopped pensioners fuel allowance and cut welfare for the disabled while spending billions on immigrants. If they could fund it all they would. 

 

Fortunately they will be a one term government. Like most socialist governments they will do tremendous damage during that one term. 

 

Like Thatcher said. The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

 

I'm guessing you were never a huge tax payer though. Recipients of benefits of the welfare state tend to like them more than those who pay for them. 

 

Classic JonnyF.

 

An angry, thinly veiled racist/xenophobic rant topped off by a snide personal attack. Nothing of substance offered. Nothing worthy of discussion. Nothing changes.

  • Thanks 1
Posted
31 minutes ago, RayC said:

The UK welfare state - while far from perfect - has not collapsed. It functions.

 

Sure 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says

 

Would you like me to post links to the gangs that have been jailed for fraud ? Not even in the UK to commit the fraud.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c844g4kpjxdo

 

It is close to collapse, and it does not function in the manner intended.

 

35 minutes ago, RayC said:

but whatever way you look at it the UK does NOT operate an 'Open Borders' policy.

 

Is 2000 dinghy divers in the last week, a sign of robust borders ?
 

Is "Smashing the Gangs " working ?

 

Not sure what you call it. But I call 2000 uninvited guests in a week an open border.

 

You can write " FACT " in capital letters all you want. It does not change reality.

  • Thumbs Down 1
Posted
4 minutes ago, DezLez said:

Just like your whole post!

 

Thank you for that incisive comment. 

Posted
1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says

 

Would you like me to post links to the gangs that have been jailed for fraud ? Not even in the UK to commit the fraud.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c844g4kpjxdo

 

It is close to collapse, and it does not function in the manner intended.

 

 

Is 2000 dinghy divers in the last week, a sign of robust borders ?
 

Is "Smashing the Gangs " working ?

 

Not sure what you call it. But I call 2000 uninvited guests in a week an open border.

 

You can write " FACT " in capital letters all you want. It does not change reality.

 

Welfare State: A system whereby the state undertakes to protect the health and well-being of its citizens, especially those in financial or social need, by means of grants, pensions, and other benefits. 

 

This is what exists in the UK today. QED.

Posted
1 minute ago, RayC said:

 

Welfare State: A system whereby the state undertakes to protect the health and well-being of its citizens, especially those in financial or social need, by means of grants, pensions, and other benefits. 

 

This is what exists in the UK today. QED.

 

Quote

Britain’s benefits system faces collapse without cuts to disability payments, Liz Kendall has said, as the government published plans that put it on a collision course with dozens of angry Labour MPs.

Kendall published her welfare reform bill on Wednesday, confirming it would lead to benefit cuts for 950,000 people by 2030. She said the country’s £326bn social security net might cease to exist if costs continued to escalate.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says

 

Are you calling a Labour Cabinet Minister a liar ?

Posted
5 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Welfare State: A system whereby the state undertakes to protect the health and well-being of its citizens, especially those in financial or social need, by means of grants, pensions, and other benefits. 

 

This is what exists in the UK today. QED.

 

The key word of course being citizens. I don't see any reference to cultural enrichers arriving on dinghies there, do you?   

  • Thumbs Down 2
Posted
13 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No.

 

I have not denied that the Welfare State is under pressure, but to repeat for the umpteenth time, my points are 1) a (limited) open borders policy and provision of a welfare state are not mutually exclusive and 2) the UK does not operate an open border policy.

 

These are facts. I am claiming no more or less than that. In that regard, the links which you provide are at best tangential.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...