The Best Reason No To Buy A Condo In Pattaya?

[NanLaew]

Where is your condo? Rented or bought?

I don't stay in a condo, I was just alluding to generally poor construction standards in LOS. Maybe that's harsh and the construction is mostly sound and it's just the finishing is poor?

[hiro]

For a long time I have been thinking to buy a condo and get out of that monthly stay/rent business. More space, more privacy and hopefully less distasteful people around.

Well, looking at the market myself I met alot of nice expats trying to make the extra buck by trying to sell condos that were in termite infested buildings, out somewhere in the woods, or simply at crime central like the Nirun/Niran. Talking to real estate agents I felt soon that I had just upgraded from the first group to the advanced level. Extensive internet searches had been helpful in getting a sobering overview over prices. Keeping my mouth shut when talking to these people I was on the look out for a bargain or discounted price. Well, they tried to take me for a ride and asked more than on the web (usually in the 100 K or plus range) for exactly the same place (same building, same unit). Ok, you can avoid that by making yourself smart and use your knowledge to test to agent. Ah, before one of those agents starts lecturing me about the market and my own misconceptions: Just keep quiet if you one of those persons who sold houses to foreigners by the company route. I was told so much crap about it and I m only lucky that i listened to Thai friends who warned me. No need to trust anyone who was part of this.

Touring Pattaya outside my usual rounds, I noticed how much it has changed. Construction literally everywhere with buildings going further up. In a short time the coastline will be lined by a concrete wall. These developments remind my pretty much of something like US projects from the 1940s (View Talay comes here first to mind) and I wonder how they are built, having seen these older condos and their problems (cracks). Assuming that the construction is sound and you opt for a new place and put up that money. I had contacted three developers who made it clear that there was no guarantee that they would not sell more than 49% to foreigners. So I might end up screwed very easily. But even without the construction boom that just increases water shortage, traffic congestion etc. there is enough more to worry about.

A short perusal of this and other forums' news clipping shows that crime is more and more targeting farangs and that includes the resident community. Any predictions for that trend? Somehow I m reluctant to turn myself into a sitting duck waiting that my turn comes.

Let's assume you get into trouble and it is not so bad or even no trouble at all but some other health emergency. What comes next? You are caught in a prefectly corrupt emergency health situation. An administrator at a know hospital that pays bribes for you being delivered to them might effectively decide if you live or die. Unless, of course, if you give them your cc in time. Extortion.

Then the visa situation. Constant changes and with the new rules at Poipet the 90 day rule is not much worth anymore. Right, you can go somewhere else, but be sure that will change as well. Given the political climate in this country, I have no hope for a turn around concerning this chauvinistic attitude. So I might have condo and wont be able to live it in....

So with these thoughts and my amazement at the high prices for condos as compared to other locations I simply could not make up my mind and part from my hard earned money. It was not really decision but hesitancy. Nothing was really what I liked or I could feel comfortable with. All options were compromises and the only "positive" argument was that prices will go up more and it would just get worse.

Well, here is the final straw:

The plan for a nuclear power plant some 20-30 kms south of Pattaya. Surely, it will be perfectly safe like those Russian models, the renamed British processing plant, those old German reactors, and the American models (Harrisburg). So I do believe that the industry has only our best interest on its mind and is far from being only profit oriented. The issue the is the slow and continuous contamination of the air and the water. Perhaps the radiation will clean the sea water from Pattaya's sewer bacteria and I dont swim there anyhow, but the air.... But then, what price is too high to watch a melt down from the highest building in Thailand. I finally got it, why an apartment in such tower is a must.

In sum, it's time to look elsewhere for that retirement place we deserve.

you are serios about retiring ?

I used to live near Pattaya now I am actually retired in the south of the country.

None of those concerns you refering to around here.

There are others depending on what your expectations are if these do not fit forget it - but for retirement it is ideal.

I can offer you to build a house, hardwood Thai style, 2 bedrooms on my wifes land, 9 rai, for less than 2 Mio Baht on a 30 year lease. would cost you many times the price on a shady company ownership deal araound there with all the other things still being there. Land ownership is as you know illigal for us farang.

Interested send me a mail.

[Tammi]

Where is your condo? Rented or bought?

I don't stay in a condo, I was just alluding to generally poor construction standards in LOS. Maybe that's harsh and the construction is mostly sound and it's just the finishing is poor?

A friend looked at everything in Pattaya and Jomthien and bought at Grand Condo because it seemed to him to be the only well constructed condo. Other friends are very happy at Jomthien Condotel. Both built by same developer in the 80s.

[farangfool]

Yup, I want to retired here in SEA but Thailand seems no longer a realistic option. a 30 yr lease on a house just mean that I throw my money away like I would be doing with a "company solution." The 30 yr lease is upfront about the company solution is less but worse. With the suggested new legislation I would become tenant without rights being obliged to report to a thai who sits on what was once my money. Anyone with a minimum of self-respect or remnants of brain activity would never put himself in a such a position.

The condos I checked has problems built in the contruction (cracks, rotting metals, cracked drive ways etc. not always obvious) Since we pay with our hard earned cash we better look a bit closer - arrive early to the meeting and sneak around. Never move with the agent to the location, they know why they do it. They select the nice route and lead you smiling around the pitfalls of the building. Maintenance is big issue, the amount of hidden dirt is sometimes surprising, conditions of elevators telling, and it always pays to have a close look at any visible woodden part. I bet you will find evidence of termites once the building is over ten years old. Add to that the inflated prices of the units and the potential danger of a nuclear facility nearby, the investment talk of developers and agents dont convince me at all (this the more so given their somewhat liberal concepts about correct information etc.).

The truly golden rule that you should never invest more in Thailand than you are prepared to walk away from applies to me. I will most likely leave rather sooner than but empty the bank account and walk WITH my money.

So telling what I wont do is not just a simple statement like i wont have my beer in that bar or dont like that pizza; it is the result of a careful reflections on the issue at hand. Moreover, it is part of the decision making process as well, since I do care about the input and hope to minimize errors due to my limited perspective or lack of insight.

The post from the South of Thailand addresses the fundamental question at hand: Is Pattaya still the deal it was and the one that we liked? I missed the relaxed walk in the morning to pick up some snacks for breakfast. Traffic is heavy already at an early hour; I miss the green spots, all built up or going to be with construction fences around it.

I liked to walk at the beach road in the evenings or late at night. The katoyes took off once you greet them with "Hey guys who's going?' and the ladies accepted my plea that I have a gf etc and that was it.Fresh air, nice views and some exercise. Sometimes it was nice to have a chat at the junction of Central Pattaya rd and beach rd. Be aware, on the weekends I spoke to many workers from Bao Win who came out for dancing and getting away from that place plus BKK people. Nice talks, sitting on the beach and perhaps re-stocking drinks at the 7/11. Now I can watch the moral majority with TV Niels as the super-opportunist of the farang community. Seems that we have to proof now that we are OK and in support of any policy even when it is just aimed at squeezing those extra bahts out of some underpriveleged women. Their only fault is that the bar owners and thus the authorities dont get their usual cut from them. On top of that you have now these young scum heads sitting around and trying to act as pimps. So I miss those relaxed hours and friendly talks.

Pattaya has become tense. I did not address the rise in violent crimes that increasingly targets foreigners as well. And, yes, I know my ways around and I m not scared, but shit happens, right?

In sum, less quality of life, higher prices due to local conditions and unfavorable exchange rates. Yes, we are intelligent creatures and adapt. Step by step we re-configure our routes and walks, look for new food places as the old and treasured ones have left and so on. But do I want to continue this forever and to what extent? So I think it is time to re-think it and consider alternatives. I was figuring another place in Thailand might be suitable but then came that new rule from immigration that effectively abolished the 90 days rule (after the visa). Yup, I can adapt, spending more money. But is this the last nasty hit or just another one in a series? I cannot see any change from Taksin to the present gentleman. Thus, I have doubts about it.

My conclusion is the following: I will use Pattaya as a base for some more time. Probably spending more days travelling upcountry than now. At the same time, I will start visits to potential non-Thai destinations like PH (thanks for the help guys, that was really helpful advice and I m reading now a lot - the clean sea in PH draws me now like a magnet....) and perhaps Malaysia as well is a realistic option - think about - an own garden and now neighbours right next door....!!! Plus no more thinking about those immigration guys.....

And Nightlife? So far I never had problems to hang out late - even in some little Isan district towns or in Laos. So, if you dont need it right into your face 24/7, that Pattaya sales point is lost on me.

[ya5702]

Interesting reading! Thank you all.

Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia.... why no mention of Singapore as your new home? It is the safest place to live.

[popshirt]

Also the dullest IMHO.

[Jingthing]

I seriously doubt Singapore offers a retirement visa option. They want expats but mostly working expats. Also, it is a high cost country. Most people are looking for a lower cost country to retire to.

[Clipped]

if i was in the position of retirement and wanted 'some' security i might consider living on a house boat/yacht...

or if i was to buy a house id build two on the same plot and rent the other out to make back the money.

[midas]

farangfool I have enjoyed reading about your thoughts on this matter.

If you happened to read this article from last Monday which admittedly concerns

the Bangkok condo market it covers the oversupply issue in Bangkok

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/13Aug2007_money08.php

Yesterday on another thread reference was made new approvals

having being given for 24,400 new condo's in Bangkok this year

On your travels did anyone mention what the possible oversupply figures are

for condo's in Pattaya ? I know many agents were talking about on oversupply

even in March of this year.

[farangfool]

farangfool I have enjoyed reading about your thoughts on this matter.

If you happened to read this article from last Monday which admittedly concerns

the Bangkok condo market it covers the oversupply issue in Bangkok

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/13Aug2007_money08.php

Yesterday on another thread reference was made new approvals

having being given for 24,400 new condo's in Bangkok this year

On your travels did anyone mention what the possible oversupply figures are

for condo's in Pattaya ? I know many agents were talking about on oversupply

even in March of this year.

I read that oversupply article and the sharp fall in the market piece.

As for pattaya, I doubt it as far as existent condos are concerned. The market seems to be based mostly on new arrivals still intoxicated by steroids and eager to have a place. Others are escaping from the house ownership trap. So given that the house route is effectively blocked, at least there was a rush to condos (me considering it as well.....). This explains the rise in prices for even certified rat holes and drug centers.

Then you have a layer of people in the market speculating and buying up places. Some even refurbish and turn such hopeless lots like the Majestic and Ankit condos into high-end places (ok, that's what they say...). At Ankit I saw a happy colonie of termites (somehow the beast like woodden bath room door frames most). I also learned that some Chinese guy (local for sure) bought the majority of the place. Lots of rooms get refurbished with wood (the termites will die of overfeeding....). Which also means that he controls the place and will set the maintenance fees according to his will. No chance to establish transparency like at the Metro. So you pay him what he tells you. Not so nice a prospect.

Off plan seems to be a different ball game. Many builders appear to depend on the quick sale of their projects in order to built at all. Which seems risky to me. I m talking about the lower market range. I saw a new luxury project right in front of Paradise Beach condo. They stopped the clubhouse project, bought up some single unite houses and now have the space for this development. So we will have 1 row of 8 floor condos right in front of the projects with their 30+ floors all along the beach and both sides of the hill.

If there is an oversupply, it is strangeled by the agents who keep prices up and push for higher. Some agents are flippers as well. Maybe once they have to pay for their contractual obligations without ready income from over priced sales, the bubble will burst. That might easily take a while. I think the coming mega-project will turn out as the moment of truth.

Aside from the immigration headache, I think Pattaya prices are at least 30% over the top, if not right away 50%. These percentages do not include the visible overpricing that becomes apparent by checking various agencies (easy 500 000 to 1 mill baht).

Another turn off are these attempts to sell the places furnished - surely high end furniture right..... As if I would be unable to pick the stuff that I WANT and obtain the discounts I expect. So customers are taken for stupid here. Needless to say that I cannot imagine that many of those agents would be able to conduct business in Europe. Meeting them is like watching The FOOKERS once more, unfortunately with Barbara Streisand and much less entertaining.

[nemo38]

Thanks for the tip on the house boat. Definitely something I hadn't thought of. But a life at sea is not everyone's cup of tea.

[midas]

If there is an oversupply, it is strangeled by the agents who keep prices up and push for higher. Some agents are flippers as well. Maybe once they have to pay for their contractual obligations without ready income from over priced sales, the bubble will burst. That might easily take a while. I think the coming mega-project will turn out as the moment of truth.

Does it make sense to you ? I accept the market in Pattaya is different in many ways

but all the negative things that have happened in Thailand including tightening of visa

regulations and less appealing business regulations must surely impact the market here eventually as well

So you have retirees -but only so many and even some of those are starting to consider

neighboring countries. You have business people but again some of these are considering

other places and many seem to prefer living in a house as opposed to a condominium -

who is occupying or will occupy all of these condo's in Pattaya ?

[booman]

FF you have seemed to have made up your mind and you are only looking to muster support and fellowship in your move. Move for Christ's sake! The prices of Pattaya can only be supported by the market. Pattaya and Thailand are not rich enough to sponsor and support an artificial market for very long. Someone is paying and out pricing you (probably I am, I can afford the local prices). It is only inflated to what the market can stand.

Sorry, enjoy Malayasia, it is truley Asia.

Edited August 15, 2007 by booman

[farangfool]

If there is an oversupply, it is strangeled by the agents who keep prices up and push for higher. Some agents are flippers as well. Maybe once they have to pay for their contractual obligations without ready income from over priced sales, the bubble will burst. That might easily take a while. I think the coming mega-project will turn out as the moment of truth.

Does it make sense to you ? I accept the market in Pattaya is different in many ways

but all the negative things that have happened in Thailand including tightening of visa

regulations and less appealing business regulations must surely impact the market here eventually as well

So you have retirees -but only so many and even some of those are starting to consider

neighboring countries. You have business people but again some of these are considering

other places and many seem to prefer living in a house as opposed to a condominium -

who is occupying or will occupy all of these condo's in Pattaya ?

I think explanation is that the market is not that big. The 49% rule severely limits available freehold condos. Many people switched quickly from the house route to condos increasing demand suddenly. Agents although with probably little capital keep the prices high as they control the outlets. Not many people tour for weeks the various buildings and boards. I did it for about 8 months and finally realized that there are no more deals. Agents even advertize as private sellers in the papers while they are not - what a waste of time. The reason that people want to buy from private is that they want to cut out the commissionaires. Do these people realize that and yet think they just have to play it little differently and still get a cut?

I doubt that this situation will persist. Maybe prices will remain high but with little business going on. The agents suffer and the sellers will wait. Fair enough. Most people were so far concerned about freehold and pricing. This has changed during the past 3 months. Now the visa trap has been added and no one can talk that away. There is no fake company solution for that and rising visa prices are just an expense and no investment.

So I fully agree with you. It will take some time until the bubble bursts. As I said, the off plan developments will show what is happening. Many agents/flippers have invested in these projects, so that will hide the extent of the crisis for a while.

But in the end this all does not matter too much. The lack of a minimal security and the prevalent sentiments and policies against us foreigners allow only one reaction. Politely thanking and pulling the money out of the bank.

I

[booman]

If you are American...

There is little known treaty between America and Thailand...

P.S. I work with the US State Department.

[mellow1]

If you are American...

There is little known treaty between America and Thailand...

P.S. I work with the US State Department.

Please inform me as to what treaty you are referring to,and how it may affect visas or property ownership.I am also an American.I believe that if I don't meet my Thai wife visa requirements,Thailand will have no qualm about kicking me out of the country,and separating me from my wife and son.I also believe that because I'm an American, I still cannot own a home in the LOS.If such a treaty exists,a treaty which can have an impact on these matters,it should be better known,and your help in enlightening fellow Americans will be deeply appreciated.

[farangfool]

This seems to be pertinent to the subject matter - the full meaning of security guard and condo maintenance:

Security Guard Stabs Co-Worker at Workplace

Pattaya Police were informed of a stabbing that occurred in front of View Talay Condo 1 in the evening of 15th August, so quickly rushed over to investigate.

When they arrived they discovered that a fight had occurred between two workers at the building and one of them had already been taken to the hospital so quickly followed.

At the hospital we found the injured to be Mr. Suwasin, an electrician at the condos. He had been stabbed four times. He had cuts to his left arm, the middle of his back, waist, and his stomach.

A friend of the injured man told us that the attacker is Mana, a security guard at the condos. The two men had an argument about repairing the front light of the condo and then a fight broke out with Mana having an advantage because he had a knife as a weapon.

A search is now underway for Mana Narkorn.

Pattaya People

[ThaiBob]

If you are American...

There is little known treaty between America and Thailand...

P.S. I work with the US State Department.

Are you referring to the Treat of Amity between America and Thailand (1966)? American "companies" get preferential treatment but they can not still own land or attempt to skirt the 49% restriction of foeigners owning condos. I can't see where this treaty would be helpful as it relates to this thread.

[ThaiBob]

If you are American...

There is little known treaty between America and Thailand...

P.S. I work with the US State Department.

Please inform me as to what treaty you are referring to,and how it may affect visas or property ownership.I am also an American.I believe that if I don't meet my Thai wife visa requirements,Thailand will have no qualm about kicking me out of the country,and separating me from my wife and son.I also believe that because I'm an American, I still cannot own a home in the LOS.If such a treaty exists,a treaty which can have an impact on these matters,it should be better known,and your help in enlightening fellow Americans will be deeply appreciated.

I would get some professional advice. Perhaps,

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Thaila...mity-Treaty.php

[brahmburgers]

the OP and others have to look squarely at what Pattaya has to offer - and what the future trends appears to be. Is Pattaya where they want to live? Judging from all the negatives articulated thus far, it sounds like the answer is a resounding 'no.'

Pattaya is a part of Thailand, Pattaya is not Thailand. There are many other places. Granted, not many other sites offer such blatant debauchery. If it's sun and sand and views you're after - there are many such places in the southern regions.

I happen to have chosen northernmost Thailand. I complain, but I'm sure my complaining quotient would go up exponentially if I had to live in Pattaya or Bangkok or Phuket. It's not just me, I also hear it from former and current farang residents of those places who come up here to visit: they exclaim; "oh man, it's sooooo much nicer up here in northern Thailand! - the cool nights, the friendlier locals, cleaner air, lower prices...." etc. etc.

But those same appreciative folks often wind up going back to Pattaya - to the comforts of the busy nightlife, the fast-food restaurants, the easy women who've been around the block a thousand times, etc. So be it, to each his own.

[Jingthing]

With due respect, this is the Pattaya forum. Pattaya IS in Thailand.

Most of us love living in Pattaya and most of us have been to other parts of Thailand to compare.

You have just stereotyped Pattaya as being 100 percent being about hookers and sex. It can be if you want it to be, but it doesn't have to be.

How many times do Pattaya expats go into the Chiang Mai or Chiang Rai forum and trash talk it?

Edited August 17, 2007 by Jingthing

[midas]

It can be if you want it to be, but it doesn't have to be.

Well said

[wileycoyote]

The problems increase by the year:

Sex corruption brings the weirdos & mafias

Drugs brings increase of crime petty & organised

Infrastructure unable to cope drains & water supplies,traffic and pollution.

To be honest ,I do like Pattaya but yiu have to be realistic if you are buying property.

Wiley Coyote

[brahmburgers]

With due respect, this is the Pattaya forum. Pattaya IS in Thailand.

Most of us love living in Pattaya and most of us have been to other parts of Thailand to compare.

You have just stereotyped Pattaya as being 100 percent being about hookers and sex. It can be if you want it to be, but it doesn't have to be.

How many times do Pattaya expats go into the Chiang Mai or Chiang Rai forum and trash talk it?

I agree that Pattaya is in Thailand. If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I stated, "Pattaya is a part of Thailand, Pattaya is not Thailand." I didn't use the word 'in' - inferring that there is a whole lot more to Thailand than Pattaya.

I also didn't say anything about '100 percent" - seems to me you're thin-skinned and so quick to get defensive about Pattaya that you see spooks around every corner - even when they're not there.

[Mujjiman]

Wow, I was thinking of buying in Pattaya at 1.7 mil, but by the sound I should wait.

The thing is the rental is bour 9% .. where in uk its 4.5%, it should be cheaper o buy.. but after reading this you could do you dough!!

nO BUY FOR ME

[brahmburgers]

Wow, I was thinking of buying in Pattaya at 1.7 mil, but by the sound I should wait.

The thing is the rental is bour 9% .. where in uk its 4.5%, it should be cheaper o buy.. but after reading this you could do you dough!!

nO BUY FOR ME

Renting is a smarter option for some of the folks who want to reside in Pattaya. At least with renting, if you wind of disliking the ambiance (noise, new construction blocking views, neighbors from h4ll) then it's much easier to pack up and re-locate.

I know of a 44 rai (18 acres) parcel of titled land on a secluded hill in northern Thailand for less than 1.7 million. It's got killer 360 degree views that stretch to the small mountain ranges east and west. But that's a whole different bowl of fish sauce than a 15 square meter apartment for the same price - so barely worth mentioning.

[farangfool]

mujiman,

this week's shock waves in the US markets could be a signal for lower prices. The major new developments (especially that super high rise with views on Lam chabang petrol refineries, the eastern seaboard industrial park and hopefully also the mataput oil refinery. If not, watch the tankers offshore) are targeting foreign customers, i. e. capital from abroad. While it is possible that local sales persons can fool people who are interested about the current conditions in Thailand, these agents cannot change the global credit etc situation. So the influx of capital will dry off considerably. Adding to that the fact that many local agents bought into these projects at about 30% or perhaps even more discount they will nevertheless have to start paying if these developments do happen. Thus with the less incoming capital and suddenly facing considerable bills from developers the speculative bubble might burst in Pattaya much earlier than in BKK. In BKK you have a sizable farang business community who needs places to live as opposed to "wanting." The same holds true for Thais of course.

So the coming weeks will be very interesting and watching how US real estate troubles impact European banks. I cant imagine that Thailand will be immune from this and given the current political climate, so should be the more so.

Rent and see, I m checking now other locations. Aside from much better visa conditions, just leaving here gets me easy 30% lower prices at higher value.... I mention this to illustrate how overprized pattaya is. It must be because of the nice industrial ring around it. Not many 'resorts' have it.

[farangfool]

Wow, I was thinking of buying in Pattaya at 1.7 mil, but by the sound I should wait.

The thing is the rental is bour 9% .. where in uk its 4.5%, it should be cheaper o buy.. but after reading this you could do you dough!!

nO BUY FOR ME

Read this : http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=137940

Yup, it is time the let the agents melt down as well and see how much you get for ready cash. Too bad that many speculated on credit.

[gguy]

The completion of VT6 on Pattaya Beach Road should be interesting. VT6 is scheduled in Dec. or Jan.

The buyers (speculators?????????) will have to come up with the money.

VT6 is sold as a shell. Therefore, any buyer will have to spend additional sums to be able to rent.

It should be interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited August 20, 2007 by gguy

[farangfool]

The completion of VT6 on Pattaya Beach Road should be interesting. VT6 is scheduled in Dec. or Jan.

The buyers (speculators?????????) will have to come up with the money.

VT6 is sold as a shell. Therefore, any buyer will have to spend additional sums to be able to rent.

It should be interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You could sell cold beers, ice cream and medication in front of the land registry once the happy buyers try to register their acquisitions as free hold. Once the 49% are filled, you might stop selling beer but start some counseling service.

By the way, the shelf solution is actually not too bad an idea. Do you really share the taste of other people and like them to pick your bed for you? Moreover, the stuff might look nice but closer inspection you'll see it is junk. New good craftsmanship but lots of nails and other primitive fixings.

I should add that often the contractors have to take over a substantial number of condos from the developer. This they do so that the developer can demonstrate a sufficiently high percentage of sold units to his bank in order to get credit. Moreover, the contractor needs to do it to get the job at all. So there is lots of "sand" in the process where people suspect solid ground. Given that agents/flippers get something between 20-30% discounts, the contractors should end up with 35-40% as they 'buy' wholesale. Once a developer tried to sell me a condo at full price (not even the 5%+ discount you usually would get for cash). The percentages show how much capital is really involved and how much speculation for higher prices is going on. So 10% discounts are not really a great deal at all. It might be a good idea to check with the construction companies and see if they have units for sale or not. They surely will have agents working for them, but why cut out that percentage and split it. I tried it with little success but at least I learned that contractors like to sell directly as well.