8 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

 Here's one entity that has not condemned Hamas for taking hostages and murdering Jews, the Islamic Republic of Iran.  In fact, Iran openly supports the taking of hostages and murder by Hamas.  The murals in the pic below are from Palestine Square in central Tehran.  They are official Iranian government "installations" and feature blood-spattered photos of hostages abducted on Oct.; 7, 2023.  The text in Hebrew and Farsi reads, "No hostage will be released." 

 

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-825892

 

The pic below is from the  Palestine Square Countdown Clock.  The digital  display counted down the number of days of days remaining until Israel's eradication in 2040, in line with Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei’s 2015 prophecy that Israel “will not exist in 25 years.”

 

The clock was attacked in the June Israeli air raid against Tehran, but it's uncertain to what extent it was damaged.

 

It is this type of criticism of Israel that is blatantly antisemitic.

Right, exactly what we were talking about.

 

You have anything on topic.

22 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Right, exactly what we were talking about.

 

You have anything on topic.

 

My post came in answer to a question you asked.  You quoted @Yellowtail 

 

23 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why should Palestine be allowed to hold hostages and continue to kill all the Jews they can? 

 

and then  you answered his question with a question

 

23 hours ago, stevenl said:

Can you name one poster, or even better one entity, that hasn't condemned hamas for that and urged release of the hostages?

 

I gave you an example of an entity  which has not condemned Hamas for taking hostages and has not urged the release of the hostages.  Isn't that what you asked for?

 

It is broadly on topic as it helps explain the motivation behind Israel's attacks on Hamas leaders who are sheltered by other countries.  It's also an example of blatant antisemitism on the part of Iran.

 

15 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

My post came in answer to a question you asked.  You quoted @Yellowtail 

 

 

and then  you answered his question with a question

 

 

I gave you an example of an entity  which has not condemned Hamas for taking hostages and has not urged the release of the hostages.  Isn't that what you asked for?

 

It is broadly on topic as it helps explain the motivation behind Israel's attacks on Hamas leaders who are sheltered by other countries.  It's also an example of blatant antisemitism on the part of Iran.

 

You should have quoted Hamas, makes about as much sense.

23 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You should have quoted Hamas, makes about as much sense.

 

At this point, it's your comment that isn't making much sense.  Do you disagree that Iran is an entity which hasn't condemned Hamas taking hostages and which hasn't encouraged the release of hostages?  Do you disagree that the murals and count-down clock in Palestine Square in Tehran are examples of massive antisemitism on the part of the Iranian government?

11 hours ago, RayC said:

 

To prove your point, not that you can. You stated that I implied that surrender could not be voluntary. I did not. 

 

QED

It is not possible to "prove" my opinion of what you implied. Regardless of what I say, you will just regurgitate the denial.

 

QED indeed. You lefties love that, huh?

11 hours ago, RayC said:

 

 

Here is our full exchange of that topic:

 

You: I've been to jail a number of times. When they opened the door and said I could go, I left. 

 

Me: And presumably upon release, you then had the same rights and responsibilities as any other American? That is not the case for Palestinians: Their rights are curtailed. If they leave - assuming that they can do so - they become refugees. They are not free in many senses of the word.

 

You: No, upon release I did not have the same rights and responsibilities as any other American

 

 Me: OK. Not that it has any relevance to a discussion on the Middle East.

 

You: Then why did you ask?

 

Me: I didn't. You introduced your time spent inside into the discussion.

 

You: After which you asked about it, and when you did not like the response you discounted it.

 

_---++++++-++

I am completely indifferent to your response and discounted it because it has no relevance to a discussion about Israel and Palestine.

 

If you think that it does have some relevance, please explain how, and what your point is?

That was not our full exchange on the topic.

11 hours ago, RayC said:

 

 

No, I did not but that, in itself, is not directly relevant to your assertion that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas. However, you clearly missed the following which is directly relevant:

 

The survey found that, "When asked which political party or movement they support, the largest percentage (32%) said they prefer Hamas, followed by Fatah (21%), 12% selected third parties, and 34% said they do not support any of them or do not know".

If there were a war between the US and China, and the US dropped a nuclear bomb on Beijing, and you surveyed Americans to determine if they supported the action, and over 70% said yes. 

 

And let's assume that a Republican is Commander in Chief, and you surveyed Americans as to which political party they supported, And it came out 30% Republican, 30% Democrat, 20% Independant, and 20% Green.

 

Would you then argue that the majority of Americans were not supporting the Republicans? If you did, you would be wrong.

 

After 9/22 President Bush had something like a 90% approval rating.

 

Hamas's approval rating in Palestine is, (per your link) higher than the Democrat party's approval rating in the US, even with Trump in the White House. 

 

Would most Palestinians rather have their own party running the war? Probable. Do most Palestinians not support Hamas? No. 

 

Now look at the study you linked to. Who funds it? The PLO. 

 

What is the sample size? About 1,500, as I remember.

 

That is a small sample. Now before you start lecturing me on statistics and how accurate small sample studies can be, please understand that for a small sample study to have any legitimacy, the samples have to be random. I doubt anyone can explain how to get a random sample of Palestinians, particularly now. 

 

Now all that said, even with Gaza in rubble, and all the dead and wounded, per the study you linked to, 50% of Palestinians STILL think Hamas's invasion of Israel was a good idea.

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/14/2025 at 12:45 AM, JimCM said:

Get out of Gaza, give illegal settlements back in West Bank, stop Apartheid in Israel, give all Israeli Arabs equal rights, stop discrimination, free all the thousands of administrative detainees in Israeli prison(including children) who have had no trial, allow Palestine to have a state, get rid of its nuclear weapons for a start. 

Israel will gladly leave  Gaza once the hostages are released and Hamas and friends agree to stop  launching missiles and rockets at Israel.

You use the term apartheid, but do you even understand what it means? This South African MP  made it clear that the use of the term apartheid is an insult to the Africans who suffered under apartheid.

 

 

You say that israeli arabs do not have equal rights. What rights are they denied? 

 

The people who are in detention are people who have bene involved in violent activities. The children who ar detained in juvenile detention facilities are there for throwing  rocks and other objects at vehicles, or because of violent attacks. Unlike Syria or iraq or Yemen or Iran, Israe does not execute such people on sight, nor does it lock them up incomminicado without access to legal counsel or medical care.

 

Israel has nuclear weapons because it is surrounded by hostile states who wish to destroy it and to exterminate  any one whether  druze, jew, christian or muslim who is a proponent of  peace.

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

It is not possible to "prove" my opinion of what you implied. Regardless of what I say, you will just regurgitate the denial.

 

QED indeed. You lefties love that, huh?

 

Yes exactly QED.

 

You have failed to produce any evidence that I said that surrender could not be voluntary for the simple reason that no such evidence exists. QED.

 

You have also failed to produce any statement of mine where it could (realistically) be inferred or implied that I believe surrender could not be voluntary. QED.

 

Even allowing for that, I have informed you that you are mistaken if your interpretation (opinion) is that I believe surrender can be voluntary. QED.

 

And yet, despite all that you remain defiant and cling to your belief based, presumably, on the knowledge that you (somehow) know better than me what I actually mean!!!!!!

 

It's nothing to do with being left or right and everything to do with being rational, an attribute that you sadly seem to lack.

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

That was not our full exchange on the topic.

 

Then you shouldn't have any trouble reproducing the relevant missing part(s)  of the exchange.

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If there were a war between the US and China, and the US dropped a nuclear bomb on Beijing, and you surveyed Americans to determine if they supported the action, and over 70% said yes. 

 

And let's assume that a Republican is Commander in Chief, and you surveyed Americans as to which political party they supported, And it came out 30% Republican, 30% Democrat, 20% Independant, and 20% Green.

 

Would you then argue that the majority of Americans were not supporting the Republicans? If you did, you would be wrong.

 

After 9/22 President Bush had something like a 90% approval rating.

 

Hamas's approval rating in Palestine is, (per your link) higher than the Democrat party's approval rating in the US, even with Trump in the White House. 

 

What do you think that proves?

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Would most Palestinians rather have their own party running the war? Probable.

 

And?

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Do most Palestinians not support Hamas? No. 

 

I assume that it is meant to mean that 'Most Palestinians support Hamas'? 

 

If so, where is your evidence?

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Now look at the study you linked to. Who funds it? The PLO. 

 

What is the sample size? About 1,500, as I remember.

 

That is a small sample. Now before you start lecturing me on statistics and how accurate small sample studies can be, please understand that for a small sample study to have any legitimacy, the samples have to be random. I doubt anyone can explain how to get a random sample of Palestinians, particularly now. 

 

Valid objections.

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Now all that said, even with Gaza in rubble, and all the dead and wounded, per the study you linked to, 50% of Palestinians STILL think Hamas's invasion of Israel was a good idea.

 

 

In the previous paragraph, you produce valid reasons to treat this survey with skepticism, but in the very next breathe you cite the results of this survey as evidence in support of your proposition. 

 

Don't you see a problem there?

2 hours ago, RayC said:

 

Yes exactly QED.

 

You have failed to produce any evidence that I said that surrender could not be voluntary for the simple reason that no such evidence exists. QED.

 

You have also failed to produce any statement of mine where it could (realistically) be inferred or implied that I believe surrender could not be voluntary. QED.

 

Even allowing for that, I have informed you that you are mistaken if your interpretation (opinion) is that I believe surrender can be voluntary. QED.

 

And yet, despite all that you remain defiant and cling to your belief based, presumably, on the knowledge that you (somehow) know better than me what I actually mean!!!!!!

 

It's nothing to do with being left or right and everything to do with being rational, an attribute that you sadly seem to lack.

Get a grip lefty, 

2 hours ago, RayC said:

 

 

Then you shouldn't have any trouble reproducing the relevant missing part(s)  of the exchange.

2 hours ago, RayC said:

 

 

What do you think that proves?

 

 

And?

 

 

I assume that it is meant to mean that 'Most Palestinians support Hamas'? 

 

If so, where is your evidence?

 

 

Valid objections.

 

 

In the previous paragraph, you produce valid reasons to treat this survey with skepticism, but in the very next breathe you cite the results of this survey as evidence in support of your proposition. 

 

Don't you see a problem there?

Wow, so defiant. 

7 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

You use the term apartheid, but do you even understand what it means?

They use terms like apartheid and genocide on purpose as a means to dehumanize Israel. 

31 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Get a grip lefty, 

Wow, so defiant. 

 

You have randomly 'cut and paste' some text of mine which doesn't even mention the subject under discussion i.e. that the rights of ex cons in the US is somehow related to the Israeli/ Palestine conflict, presumably in a pathetic attempt to save face.

 

It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

28 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

You have randomly 'cut and paste' some text of mine which doesn't even mention the subject under discussion i.e. that the rights of ex cons in the US is somehow related to the Israeli/ Palestine conflict, presumably in a pathetic attempt to save face.

 

It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Did you forget what we were talking about? Oh, and what, no QED? So sad. 

 

It is amusing when people that are unable to make logical conclusions and demand "proof" for things that can't be proven. 

 

So, what percentage of Palestinians do think/believe/or would guess want to eradicate Israel?  

 

 

55 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So, what percentage of Palestinians do think/believe/or would guess want to eradicate Israel?  

 

100%

On 9/10/2025 at 3:02 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

 

     It would be better if you go and read what war crimes are .

Its not a  war crime for civilians/children to die in wars/battles

Best if you go online and read all about it (first, before commenting)

Were there any war crimes committed during the Holocaust?
Or just a part of the war?

4 minutes ago, MalcolmB said:

Were there any war crimes committed during the Holocaust?
Or just a part of the war?

SO NOW you believe in the Holocaust. Progress brother, progress

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Did you forget what we were talking about?

 

No but obviously you did. 

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Oh, and what, no QED? So sad. 

 

I apologise for the lack of QEDs in this post. However, I have little doubt that you will afford me ample opportunity to use them in the future. 

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

It is amusing when people that are unable to make logical conclusions and demand "proof" for things that can't be proven. 

 

Unlike yourself I have the habit of sticking to the subject under discussion and not introducing additional issues which - being generous - are tangential. I find that doing so usually leads to logical conclusions. 

 

Maybe give this idea a try yourself?

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

So, what percentage of Palestinians do think/believe/or would guess want to eradicate Israel?  

 

 

 

The short answer is, "I don't know". The only evidence that I have to go on is the survey previously quoted -  which you inconsistently either cite or dismiss depending upon whether it supports your view or not. 

 

That survey found that 40% (of Palestinians) support and 57% oppose the concept of a two-state solution. Based on that information, I would guess - emphasis on the word 'guess' - that 55 - 60% of Palestinians would want to eradicate Israel.

 

However, unlike you, I am not so blinkered in my beliefs that I view everything as 'black and white' and refuse to change my opinion. I am therefore open to adjusting that estimate if presented with additional data.

On 9/12/2025 at 7:34 PM, Evil Penevil said:

Just one question for @johng and any other supporters of Ha-, oops, I mean the Palestinian people.  Do you believe in the literal truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

 

No Idea what these protocols are    do they involve  bombing hospitals,schools,churches,mosques, collective punishment,shooting kids trying to find food,killing 200 journalists  reporting on the atrocities,shooting your own soldiers so they are not captured by the "enemy"  ?

14 hours ago, RayC said:

 

No but obviously you did. 

 

 

I apologise for the lack of QEDs in this post. However, I have little doubt that you will afford me ample opportunity to use them in the future. 

 

 

Unlike yourself I have the habit of sticking to the subject under discussion and not introducing additional issues which - being generous - are tangential. I find that doing so usually leads to logical conclusions. 

 

Maybe give this idea a try yourself?

 

 

The short answer is, "I don't know". The only evidence that I have to go on is the survey previously quoted -  which you inconsistently either cite or dismiss depending upon whether it supports your view or not. 

 

That survey found that 40% (of Palestinians) support and 57% oppose the concept of a two-state solution. Based on that information, I would guess - emphasis on the word 'guess' - that 55 - 60% of Palestinians would want to eradicate Israel.

 

However, unlike you, I am not so blinkered in my beliefs that I view everything as 'black and white' and refuse to change my opinion. I am therefore open to adjusting that estimate if presented with additional data.

What is your claim that I am the one blinkered in my beliefs based on? Clearly, I perused and entered into an honest discussion about it, yes?

 

I used your study which I indicated was suspect the first time I addressed it and built a case that I felt showed that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas. You largely ignored it. 

 

Your own estimate is that 55-60% of Palestinians would want to eradicate Israel. I think that puts Israel in a difficult position. 

 

I believe Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, and that to do that, requires "terrible arithmetic" of a different sort.

 

I do not believe Isarael is gratuitously killing civilians, do you? 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I do not believe Isarael is gratuitously killing civilians, do you? 

 

 

 

I do believe that.

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I do believe that.

I know you do, thanks. You believe any number of things I find suspect. 

 

Do you also believe Palestine is gratuitously killing civilians? 

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I know you do, thanks. You believe any number of things I find suspect. 

 

Do you also believe Palestine is gratuitously killing civilians? 

 

I believe Palestinian terrorist groups have done that.

1 hour ago, johng said:

 

No Idea what these protocols are    do they involve  bombing hospitals,schools,churches,mosques, collective punishment,shooting kids trying to find food,killing 200 journalists  reporting on the atrocities,shooting your own soldiers so they are not captured by the "enemy"  ?

 

The Protocols include some very serious accusations against the Jews, similar to the ones you list and in line with  your beliefs.  Hamas declared its faith in the truth of the Protocols in its original charter from 1988.  It's widely read and believed today throughout Arab and Muslim countries,  You might want to Google the Protocols of the Elders of Zion since you have  never heard of it.

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I believe Palestinian terrorist groups have done that.

So that's a yes, you believe Palestinians are gratuitously killing civilians. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So that's a yes, you believe Palestinians are gratuitously killing civilians. 

 

 

 

And black is white.  That's not what I said.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

And black is white.  That's not what I said.

You said that you believe Palestinian terrorist groups are gratuitously killing civilians, is that not correct?

 

Is it your position that Palestinian terror groups are typically made up of non-Palestinians, and that is it is, in fact, these non-Palestinians that are gratuitously killing civilians?

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What is your claim that I am the one blinkered in my beliefs based on?

 

The contents of our exchange here and elsewhere.

 

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Clearly, I perused and entered into an honest discussion about it, yes?

 

You may have entered into the conversation with that intention but, sadly, you have not perused it that way. For one example among many, you claimed (still do?) that I stated/ implied/ inferred that, surrender could not be voluntary which is incorrect.

 

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I used your study which I indicated was suspect the first time I addressed it and built a case that I felt showed that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas. You largely ignored it. 

 

What case have you built?

 

You have offered no evidence to support your proposition that, "a majority of Palestinians support Hamas" other than the results of a survey (which Is I posted) that found that a majority of Palestinians supported the October offensive. That this is not the same as saying that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas should be obvious, but is confirmed by another result from the same survey which specifically shows that the majority of Palestinians do NOT support Hamas. You dismiss this latter result as unreliable due to possible survey bias.

 

You are therefore left in the position whereby the ONLY evidence you present to support your proposition is circumstantial and drawn from a survey which you consider unreliable due to its' methodology. 

 

I'd say that your position was tenuous to say the least.

 

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Your own estimate is that 55-60% of Palestinians would want to eradicate Israel. I think that puts Israel in a difficult position. 

 

It does but once again I have not suggested otherwise.

 

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I believe Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, and that to do that, requires "terrible arithmetic" of a different sort.

 

There can be little doubt that Israel wants to eradicate Hamas.

 

Does this "terrible arithmetic" include genocide if necessary?

 

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I do not believe Isarael is gratuitously killing civilians, do you? 

 

 

The UN consider Israel guilty of genocide irrespective of whether the killing is 'gratuitous'.

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

The contents of our exchange here and elsewhere.

The contents of our exchange here and elsewhere lead me to believe it is you that is blinkered. 

 

That was easy

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

You may have entered into the conversation with that intention but, sadly, you have not perused it that way. For one example among many, you claimed (still do?) that I stated/ implied/ inferred that, surrender could not be voluntary which is incorrect.

Except that you did imply surrender could not be voluntary. 

 

See how easy that was?

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

What case have you built?

The one you largely ignored.

 

See how easy that was?

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

You have offered no evidence to support your proposition that, "a majority of Palestinians support Hamas" other than the results of a survey (which Is I posted) that found that a majority of Palestinians supported the October offensive. That this is not the same as saying that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas should be obvious, but is confirmed by another result from the same survey which specifically shows that the majority of Palestinians do NOT support Hamas. You dismiss this latter result as unreliable due to possible survey bias.

You are therefore left in the position whereby the ONLY evidence you present to support your proposition is circumstantial and drawn from a survey which you consider unreliable due to its' methodology. 

 

I'd say that your position was tenuous to say the least.

 

 

It does but once again I have not suggested otherwise.

 

 

There can be little doubt that Israel wants to eradicate Hamas.

No, I provided ample evidence proving without a doubt that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas, you are just too blinkers to comprehend it. 

 

See how easy that was?

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

Does this "terrible arithmetic" include genocide if necessary?

 

 

The UN consider Israel guilty of genocide irrespective of whether the killing is 'gratuitous'.

It depends on how you define genocide. Going by the Oxford dictionary definition, no. 

 

What definition would you like to use? 

 

23 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The contents of our exchange here and elsewhere lead me to believe it is you that is blinkered. 

 

That was easy

Except that you did imply surrender could not be voluntary. 

 

See how easy that was?

The one you largely ignored.

 

See how easy that was?

No, I provided ample evidence proving without a doubt that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas, you are just too blinkers to comprehend it. 

 

See how easy that was?

It depends on how you define genocide. Going by the Oxford dictionary definition, no. 

 

What definition would you like to use? 

 

 

I'll answer the final question first:

 

"A new report says there are reasonable grounds to conclude that four of the five genocidal acts defined under international law have been carried out since the start of the war with Hamas in 2023: killing members of a group, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions calculated to destroy the group, and preventing births." (Source: BBC website)

 

You might object to this definition. That is your prérogative. I have no desire to engage in a(nother) discussion about semantics.

 

As for the rest of your reply: 

 

Perhaps you are convinced in your own mind that you are telling the truth? It's delusional but, if it makes you happy, then you crack on. Anyone who has had the misfortune to read our exchange will be able to work out the truth for themselves.

 

Have a nice day and knowing how much you like the initials: QED

7 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I'll answer the final question first:

 

"A new report says there are reasonable grounds to conclude that four of the five genocidal acts defined under international law have been carried out since the start of the war with Hamas in 2023: killing members of a group, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions calculated to destroy the group, and preventing births." (Source: BBC website)

 

You might object to this definition. That is your prérogative. I have no desire to engage in a(nother) discussion about semantics.

 

As for the rest of your reply: 

 

Perhaps you are convinced in your own mind that you are telling the truth? It's delusional but, if it makes you happy, then you crack on. Anyone who has had the misfortune to read our exchange will be able to work out the truth for themselves.

 

Have a nice day and knowing how much you like the initials: QED

The last question was which definition would you like to use, which you did not answer, as is typical. 

 

Go with God brother

An update from Hamas

Leading Hamas official makes first comments since Israeli attack in Qatar

A senior Hamas official has spoken for the first time since last week’s Israeli attack on the group’s leadership in the Qatari capital Doha, describing the moment of the attack and how the officials managed to barely escape.

“We were in a meeting, the negotiating delegation and some advisers. Less than an hour after we began reviewing the American proposal that we received from the Qatari mediators, we heard loud explosions,” Ghazi Hamad told Al Jazeera Arabic on Wednesday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/leading-hamas-official-makes-first-comments-since-israeli-attack-in-qatar/ar-AA1MLA3O?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=EDGEESS&cvid=68cbc17537ec4e7ca007e244e9d6c52d&ei=23