1 hour ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

Israel's war on Hamas has nothing to do with genocide, any more than the attempts to destroy Al Qaeda and ISIS are genocide.  The definition of genocide has been expanded by Israel-haters to include Israel's entirely justified military actions against Hamas.  It would be ridiculous to say the destruction of the Medellin cartel amounted to genocide against Colombians or the pursuit of Nazi war criminals was genocide against Germans.

 

The Israeli government and IDF are trying to wipe out a terrorist group which has vowed to destroy Israel.  That isn't genocide by any legitimate definition.

 

Maybe you should take that up with @Nick Carter icp and not me because genocide is exactly what he thinks that Israel's war is about and/or is proposing what it should be.

22 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

Just one question for @johng and any other supporters of Ha-, oops, I mean the Palestinian people.  Do you believe in the literal truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

 

I support the right of the Palestinian people to exist but do not support Hamas.

 

I also do not believe in the existence - never mind the literal truth - of the "'Protocols ..of Zion". 

 

None of these beliefs are mutually exclusive although I don't know what this is meant to prove.

19 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Maybe you should take that up with @Nick Carter icp and not me because genocide is exactly what he thinks that Israel's war is about and/or is proposing what it should be.

 

   That isn't true .

It was you who said it was genocide , I just didn't want to have yet another discussion about whether it was or not .

   So, I just skipped that bit ,

By all means discuss that with E.P if you want to 

33 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   That isn't true .

It was you who said it was genocide , I just didn't want to have yet another discussion about whether it was or not .

   So, I just skipped that bit ,

By all means discuss that with E.P if you want to 

 

These are my and your exact words:

 

Me: "So that's the answer? You both support genocide?

Please, none of the 'Israel has been - attacked by Hamas; etc' rhetoric."

 

 You: "There's no other solution to the problem"

 

I asked a question and your answer was unequivocal.

 

If you have now thought better of what you said then withdraw your comment, but don't try to make out that I am the one lying when you are.

28 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

These are my and your exact words:

 

Me: "So that's the answer? You both support genocide?

Please, none of the 'Israel has been - attacked by Hamas; etc' rhetoric."

 

 You: "There's no other solution to the problem"

 

I asked a question and your answer was unequivocal.

 

If you have now thought better of what you said then withdraw your comment, but don't try to make out that I am the one lying when you are.

I have him on ignore, so only see his posts when quoted.

 

Imo he's claiming it's not genocide but it should be. In his opinion all Palestinians in Gaza should be killed or removed.

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

These are my and your exact words:

 

Me: "So that's the answer? You both support genocide?

Please, none of the 'Israel has been - attacked by Hamas; etc' rhetoric."

 

 You: "There's no other solution to the problem"

 

I asked a question and your answer was unequivocal.

 

If you have now thought better of what you said then withdraw your comment, but don't try to make out that I am the one lying when you are.

 

    IMO , Palestinians  should leave Gaza voluntarily 

Who in their right mind would want to live in an open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , starvation, when they can emigrate to somewhere else ?

   

That wouldn't be "genocide" , it would be voluntarily emigration .

   I believe in voluntarily emigration , which isn't genocide  .

Could you retract your claim that I believe in genocide ?

   I believe in Palestinians willingly moving somewhere else 

Please could you retract your claim that I was lying ?

 

32 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    IMO , Palestinians  should leave Gaza voluntarily 

Who in their right mind would want to live in an open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , starvation, when they can emigrate to somewhere else ?

   

That wouldn't be "genocide" , it would be voluntarily emigration .

   I believe in voluntarily emigration , which isn't genocide  .

Could you retract your claim that I believe in genocide ?

   I believe in Palestinians willingly moving somewhere else 

Please could you retract your claim that I was lying ?

 

Nick, on another thread talking about Palestinian babies being killed you said they would’ve grown up to be Hamas anyway.

 

You want the Palestinians dead or gone, you’ve  said as much.

 

The IDF no longer view the Palestinians as human beings, they are simple “the enemy”.  I suspect much of Israel feels like you do.

34 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    IMO , Palestinians  should leave Gaza voluntarily 

Who in their right mind would want to live in an open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , starvation, when they can emigrate to somewhere else ?

   

That wouldn't be "genocide" , it would be voluntarily emigration .

   I believe in voluntarily emigration , which isn't genocide  .

Could you retract your claim that I believe in genocide ?

   I believe in Palestinians willingly moving somewhere else 

Please could you retract your claim that I was lying ?

 

 

"Could you retract your claim that I believe in genocide?"

 

"Please could you retract your claim that I was lying?"

 

No. Because that is what you said. The contents of your latest post are completely different to your original response which - to avoid it being 'lost' - I will reproduce once again. Are you now retracting this view?

 

Me: "So that's the answer? You both support genocide? Please, none of the 'Israel has been - attacked by Hamas; etc' rhetoric."

 

 You: "There's no other solution to the problem"

 

Regarding your latest post, maybe ask yourself who has created the conditions where an ".. open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , starvation ..." exists, and then ask yourself, how can any decision to escape such conditions then be called voluntary? 

18 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

"Could you retract your claim that I believe in genocide?"

 

"Please could you retract your claim that I was lying?"

 

No. Because that is what you said. The contents of your latest post are completely different to your original response which - to avoid it being 'lost' - I will reproduce once again. Are you now retracting this view?

 

Me: "So that's the answer? You both support genocide? Please, none of the 'Israel has been - attacked by Hamas; etc' rhetoric."

 

 You: "There's no other solution to the problem"

 

Regarding your latest post, maybe ask yourself who has created the conditions where an ".. open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , starvation ..." exists, and then ask yourself, how can any decision to escape such conditions then be called voluntary? 

Maybe ask yourself that if it truly is an ".. open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , and starvation ...", why would anyone given the opportunity to escape such conditions not leave voluntarily?

46 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Nick, on another thread talking about Palestinian babies being killed you said they would’ve grown up to be Hamas anyway.

 

 

  Just agreeing with your  point of view that due to the current situation that Palestinian children will grow up supporting  retribution against Israel , which would be supporting Hamas  .

38 minutes ago, RayC said:

Regarding your latest post, maybe ask yourself who has created the conditions where an ".. open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , starvation ..." exists, and then ask yourself, how can any decision to escape such conditions then be called voluntary? 

 

   Palestinians /Hamas created the situation by not recognising Israel's right to exist and they kept attacking Israel

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Maybe ask yourself that if it truly is an ".. open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , and starvation ...", why would anyone given the opportunity to escape such conditions not leave voluntarily?

 

If the choice is between staying in a place & being imprisoned, starving, etc and leaving and having a chance of survival, I don't think 'voluntarily' enters into the discussion.

9 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Palestinians /Hamas created the situation by not recognising Israel's right to exist and they kept attacking Israel

 

You are once again changing the topic of discussion.

1 minute ago, RayC said:

 

You are once again changing the topic of discussion.

 

    Would you try and help people trying to escape a concertation  camp , open air prison , genocide , starvation  ?

   Help them to move to  better place ? 

 

37 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    Would you try and help people trying to escape a concertation  camp , open air prison , genocide , starvation  ?

   Help them to move to  better place ? 

 

 

A post which in no way addresses my question about who helped create those conditions in the first place.

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

A post which in no way addresses my question about who helped create those conditions in the first place.

 

  I did reply to that five  posts above this post 

Here again :

 

Palestinians /Hamas created the situation by not recognising Israel's right to exist and they kept attacking Israel

13 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I did reply to that five  posts above this post 

Here again :

 

Palestinians /Hamas created the situation by not recognising Israel's right to exist and they kept attacking Israel

 

Hamas refusing to recognise Israel's right to exist and attacking Israel may well justify attacking Hamas personnel Palestinian infrastructure and military targets. Additionally, the deaths of civilians in such attacks might also be viewed as unfortunate "collateral damage". However, that is a lot different from (apparently deliberately) "creating open air prison, concentration camp , Apartheid , and starvation" among the civilian population.

7 hours ago, RayC said:

 

I support the right of the Palestinian people to exist but do not support Hamas.

 

I also do not believe in the existence - never mind the literal truth - of the "'Protocols ..of Zion". 

 

None of these beliefs are mutually exclusive although I don't know what this is meant to prove.

 

I certainly agree it's not mutually exclusive to support Ha- oops again, the Palestinian people- and believe in the literal truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  In fact, many Hamas supporters do just that.  The original 1988 Hamas Charter claimed the Zionists'  "plan is embodied in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."   (https://archive.org/details/2017-charters-of-hamas/page/416/mode/2up?q=Protocols) 

Even on AN, some posts read as if they had been written with the Protocols as their template.  And while they probably don't realize it, the comments of a few, very few, posters mirror Adolf Hitler words about Jews in Mein Kampf.

 

What this is meant to prove is that some BMs- not many, only some- have crossed the line between legitimate criticism of the Israeli government and age-old antisemitic tropes.  Thankfully, the mods on AN catch the blatantly antisemitic stuff and take it down quickly.  Possibly (hopefully?) the experience of these posters on AN will awaken them to the insidious nature of antisemitism.

 

For those of you who have never heard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion,  you can read brief descriptions here:

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

and a more authoritative description here:   https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion

9 hours ago, RayC said:

 

If the choice is between staying in a place & being imprisoned, starving, etc and leaving and having a chance of survival, I don't think 'voluntarily' enters into the discussion.

Are you against allowing voluntary surrender?

 

I've been to jail a number of times. When they opened the door and said I could go, I left. 

 

They Palesstinians keep shooting rockets and killing Jews year after years after year. The Palestinians have in fact sworn that they want to eradicate Israel and kill every Jew.  They have also said that after they eradicate Israel and kill all the Jews, they want to destroy the US and kill all the Christians. You can choose not to believe the Palestinians, but Israel can't.

 

Using your argument, the retaliation by the Jews is not voluntarily.

6 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

I certainly agree it's not mutually exclusive to support Ha- oops again, the Palestinian people- and believe in the literal truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  In fact, many Hamas supporters do just that.  The original 1988 Hamas Charter claimed the Zionists'  "plan is embodied in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."   (https://archive.org/details/2017-charters-of-hamas/page/416/mode/2up?q=Protocols) 

Even on AN, some posts read as if they had been written with the Protocols as their template.  And while they probably don't realize it, the comments of a few, very few, posters mirror Adolf Hitler words about Jews in Mein Kampf.

 

What this is meant to prove is that some BMs- not many, only some- have crossed the line between legitimate criticism of the Israeli government and age-old antisemitic tropes.  Thankfully, the mods on AN catch the blatantly antisemitic stuff and take it down quickly.  Possibly (hopefully?) the experience of these posters on AN will awaken them to the insidious nature of antisemitism.

 

For those of you who have never heard of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion,  you can read brief descriptions here:

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

and a more authoritative description here:   https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion

 

Please don't conflate being against what Israel is doing with antisemitism.

 

Personally, I'm fed up of antisemitism, being trotted out when it's totally irrelevant.

 

57 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Please don't conflate being against what Israel is doing with antisemitism.

 

I am NOT conflating "being against what Israel is doing with antisemitism."  What I am saying is that some criticism and opposition to Israel is based in antisemitism and it is important to distinguish between legitimate criticism and antisemitism.

 

57 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Personally, I'm fed up of antisemitism, being trotted out when it's totally irrelevant.

 

Antisemitism is totally relevant when Jews are accused of heinous crimes and belief in these accusations becomes the basis for punitive actions..  Antisemitic incidents in many countries are at a high not seen since the 1930s and 1940s.   These incidents range from spoken slurs, graffiti  and harassment of individual Jews through calls for economic boycotts and sanctions against Jewish-owned businesses and all the way to attacks against synagogues and murder of Jews.

 

It's not just relevant but crucial for Jews and non-Jews alike to identify incidents, campaigns and demonstrations which are based in antisemitism.  Never again is today!

47 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Please don't conflate being against what Israel is doing with antisemitism.

 

Personally, I'm fed up of antisemitism, being trotted out when it's totally irrelevant.

Personally, I'm fed up with genocide being trotted out every time Isreal retaliates. 

It's irrelevant to bring Jews into the Israeli air strike on Qatar.  Religion is irrelevant.

 

This topic is about Israel's air strike, it has nothing to do with Jews, many of whom don't align with Israel's policy of destroying Gaza and killing Paelstinians alongside Hamas.

 

If the Israeli government had any moral values they would be apologising to Qatar and paying restitution to both the government and the family of the Qatari security guard they murdered.

 

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Personally, I'm fed up with genocide being trotted out every time Isreal retaliates. 

Oh, poor you. I suggest you watch the facts.

Why would the truth upset you so much, do you support what Israel are doing?
You do know what is happening- Gaza has been flattened and 10s of thousand of woman and children have been killed.

Maybe you cover your eyes when deaths, starvation are in the news as it makes you fed up. Strange.

1 hour ago, Evil Penevil said:

I am NOT conflating "being against what Israel is doing with antisemitism." 

Yes, you are continuously.

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

It's irrelevant to bring Jews into the Israeli air strike on Qatar.  Religion is irrelevant.

 

This topic is about Israel's air strike, it has nothing to do with Jews, many of whom don't align with Israel's policy of destroying Gaza and killing Paelstinians alongside Hamas.

 

If the Israeli government had any moral values they would be apologising to Qatar and paying restitution to both the government and the family of the Qatari security guard they murdered.

 

 

Why would they apologize? Hamas members were probably killed but the leftist media wouldnt admit that

1 hour ago, Evil Penevil said:

I am NOT conflating "being against what Israel is doing with antisemitism."  What I am saying is that some criticism and opposition to Israel is based in antisemitism and it is important to distinguish between legitimate criticism and antisemitism.

Yes you are, it’s plain to see, there in black and white.

1 hour ago, Evil Penevil said:

Antisemitism is totally relevant when Jews are accused of heinous crimes and belief in these accusations becomes the basis for punitive actions.

When people are accused of heinous crimes and these accusations are believed, punitive actions should follow. That has nothing to do with religion or persecution, only with crimes being punished.

1 minute ago, angryguy said:

Why would they apologize? Hamas members were probably killed but the leftist media wouldnt admit that

So what if Hamas  members were killed, it doesn’t give Israel the right to break international law.

 

 

1 minute ago, JimCM said:

So what if Hamas  members were killed, it doesn’t give Israel the right to break international law.

 

 

And what law is that? All is fair in love and war