Do You Feel Insecure

[summers]

I feel somewhat comfortable with my Embassy certificate of 80k Baht, but I would be much happier with a comfortable assurance that my retiremnt in Thailand is welcome.

[tominchaam]

I think there are other reasons why it might be less attractive to live here than those related to all the changes of visa rules.

Any country with a weak democracy and a selfish leadership risks hyperinflation even if I personally think it will not happen here. Another problem that might grow out of proportion is the unrest in the south that so far has not affected the rest of the county – but might do so in the future. But we share these problems with many other “nice countries” all over the world.

To me it is however more important to enjoy the life I am having now and no reason to worry about those things in the future I anyway can do very little about.

[otton]

Those on retirement have been grandfathered in the past and likely will be in the future but there is no guarantee

The "guarantee" is rather for the opposite: married people on 400k in the bank don't seem to have been grandfathered (many are being told they won't be allowed to use this option for future renewals, so in their case the "grandfathering" seems to have lasted 1 year), fathers/mothers supporting their Thai children haven't been grandfathered...

So, like life itself, you do not have complete security. I suspect that is why most of us stay in our country of birth.

But surly a longer term commitment and less uncertainty should be everyones goal. But It does not look very realistic in todays world.

This is not true.

Thais married to Westerners or been legally working in the West for the required number of years are guaranteed the security which they deny us in their smiling homecountry.

Edited August 19, 2007 by otton

[Lancelot]

I understand the OPs concerns, but once you leave your home country it is totaly different. I have been on a retirement visa since 2003 and I do not plan on buying any real property here, ever. Rent is cheap and I like the idea of being flexible and mobile.

One of the downsides to asia is that westerners are mostly tolerated but not totally accepted. Its just the way it is...

South America anyone?

[Jingthing]

I understand the OPs concerns, but once you leave your home country it is totaly different. I have been on a retirement visa since 2003 and I do not plan on buying any real property here, ever. Rent is cheap and I like the idea of being flexible and mobile.

One of the downsides to asia is that westerners are mostly tolerated but not totally accepted. Its just the way it is...

South America anyone?

You are a wiser man than I am. (I bought.) Somone was looking for a business idea for Thailand. How about a Spanish language school?

[Krub]

I'll go in October to get my 2nd renewal of retirement visa, based on pension income. I've lived here since June 2003, and have no plans or intention of ever leaving. It is annoying to only get one year at a time. Three years would be quite reasonable; five years would not be unreasonable, either. Retirement usually means a certain certainty. Not so in Thailand.

I think it is fair for Thailand to make sure the non-Thai retirees willnot become a burden and are able to take care of themselves.

The way they do it can be discussed but I think it is legitimate and the conditions although changing somewhat are pretty simple and easy to comply with.

[Artisi]

I'll go in October to get my 2nd renewal of retirement visa, based on pension income. I've lived here since June 2003, and have no plans or intention of ever leaving. It is annoying to only get one year at a time. Three years would be quite reasonable; five years would not be unreasonable, either. Retirement usually means a certain certainty. Not so in Thailand.

I think it is fair for Thailand to make sure the non-Thai retirees willnot become a burden and are able to take care of themselves.

The way they do it can be discussed but I think it is legitimate and the conditions although changing somewhat are pretty simple and easy to comply with.

I fail to see who this is ever an argument even though it has been incorrectly raised before by others - how can a farang ever become a burden on the Thai government - there is no support offered or given or health benefits . If you cannot supprt yourself (or supported by your Thai family if you have one) then you are on your own. So it's a non argument that you will be a burden on the government.

[joeuk1]

I'll go in October to get my 2nd renewal of retirement visa, based on pension income. I've lived here since June 2003, and have no plans or intention of ever leaving. It is annoying to only get one year at a time. Three years would be quite reasonable; five years would not be unreasonable, either. Retirement usually means a certain certainty. Not so in Thailand.

I think it is fair for Thailand to make sure the non-Thai retirees willnot become a burden and are able to take care of themselves.

The way they do it can be discussed but I think it is legitimate and the conditions although changing somewhat are pretty simple and easy to comply with.

Exactly right .

All that Thailand is doing is getting rid of the dead wood and the new rules for those in a position to be retired are easy to comply with .

JB

[PeaceBlondie]

Not arguing with any of the recent posters on this thread, I'd like to clarify about uncertainty as a farang retiree here:

Nobody expects absolute certainty about anything in this life, unless they're a fool. But when you decide to retire and settle in a foreign country, it's reasonable to expect that the official policy of your host nation will let you stay indefinitely. Year to year is not an indefinite period of time; it's a constant uncertainty.

As for me and my rented house, we are here for the indefinite duration. I do not recommend to any of my retirement age friends in the West that they come here 'permanently.' There is no permance here for farang, even if you have a wife and six kids.

[joeuk1]

I dont see any reason why Thailand will want us to leave . I have never felt insecure -unwanted -threatened in my 6 years of being in Thailand . I think people worry too much and if some people feel that are not liked they might maybe should ask themselves why .

JB

[bkkbill]

I just read this in the Phuket Gazette it should let you feel a little more secure.

Phuket, Thailand: Monday, August 20, 2007

Visa extension requirements I have an O-visa (marriage/dependants visa) that I have extended annually for the past seven years. One of the conditions for extension has been to have a certain level of funds in a Thai bank account for at least three months before application. Alternatively, income such as a pension may substitute partly or wholly for the bank funds.

Apparently, beginning next year only proof of income will apply and it won’t matter about the amount of any funds in a Thai account. Proof of income must apparently come from one’s embassy, but this in practice may be quite hard to do. For example, I have not been “home” for 10 years and have no income from there. Most expatriates have their savings offshore.

I am concerned about the uncertainties and wish to make plans to move away in good time rather than at short notice, if an extension next year will not be possible. I don’t want to go back to regular tourist visa runs. Can someone confirm the new rules and what documentation will be required?

Does income have to be remitted to Thailand as proof of receipt? Can “income” be remitted capital savings from overseas? Do the embassies know what will be required of them?

Friday, August 17, 2007 St John Campbell, Karon. “For people who came to Thailand and had a permit to stay for marriage before October 1, 2006, you need to present only your bank account, which must have not less than 400,000 baht. This amount must be on deposit in the bank more than three months before applying for the permit to stay. With this money deposited in the bank, you won't need to show your monthly income.

Alternatively, if you have an income, it doesn't matter if it is from outside Thailand or not, the monthly income must not be less than 40,000 baht per month. If you have a business here in Thailand, the tax payment documents can be shown and must indicate an average income of not less than 40,000 baht per month.

If you want to show that you have an income or pension from outside the country, you must show a document from your home country’s embassy indicating the amount of the income or pension, but this is may be difficult because some embassies don't consider this their responsibility.”

Friday, August 17, 2007 Pol Capt Krissarat Nuesen of the Phuket Provincial Immigration Office.

[Gary A]

Many years ago while working for a large corporation, a support department wasn't giving me the support I wanted and felt I should have. I confronted the department head and he told me not to concern myself with things I had no control over. I was VERY angry and didn't realize at the time what excellent advice it actually was. That advice applies here also. I have a plan "B" also and hope not to use it but if worse comes to worse, I'll certainly get over it. I had to deal with a lot of stress all my working life and I don't need any stress at this point in my retired life.

[Lancelot]

There is no permance here for farang, even if you have a wife and six kids.

Here is a guy that gets it

At the end of the day the thais can make any ammendments, however arbitrary, to their visa/residency rules. Their country/their rules.

[astral]

No I will keep my permanent residency alive in Japan and also a place to return to if needed

The insecurity (for my life) in the Phillipines makes it a no choice to start with.

Indonesia wouldbe high on my list but the paperwork is very very complicated

The Malaysia My Second Home plan is another option,

with a stamp for the life of the passport, maximum 10 year.

No path to PR, but better than the year by year merry-go-round in LOS.

It is also applicable to the under 50's as well,.

More money needed, but better than the straight knockback given by LOS.

[Jingthing]

Not arguing with any of the recent posters on this thread, I'd like to clarify about uncertainty as a farang retiree here:

Nobody expects absolute certainty about anything in this life, unless they're a fool. But when you decide to retire and settle in a foreign country, it's reasonable to expect that the official policy of your host nation will let you stay indefinitely. Year to year is not an indefinite period of time; it's a constant uncertainty.

As for me and my rented house, we are here for the indefinite duration. I do not recommend to any of my retirement age friends in the West that they come here 'permanently.' There is no permance here for farang, even if you have a wife and six kids.

Exactly right.

The one year leash is objectively what makes permanent retirement here a total illusion. It could easily be solved but it won't be.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[Krub]

I'll go in October to get my 2nd renewal of retirement visa, based on pension income. I've lived here since June 2003, and have no plans or intention of ever leaving. It is annoying to only get one year at a time. Three years would be quite reasonable; five years would not be unreasonable, either. Retirement usually means a certain certainty. Not so in Thailand.

I think it is fair for Thailand to make sure the non-Thai retirees willnot become a burden and are able to take care of themselves.

The way they do it can be discussed but I think it is legitimate and the conditions although changing somewhat are pretty simple and easy to comply with.

I fail to see who this is ever an argument even though it has been incorrectly raised before by others - how can a farang ever become a burden on the Thai government - there is no support offered or given or health benefits . If you cannot supprt yourself (or supported by your Thai family if you have one) then you are on your own. So it's a non argument that you will be a burden on the government.

Well if you just look at the hundreds of post wee even see on this forum when you have 1 or 2 faangs begging their way at BTS stations.... Think of what it would do to Thailand if there were hundreds and the BBC or CNN would make a special programme on them ? This would be a burden on Thailand.

i am not talking about handouts like we get in the west at the local hospital

[Krub]

Not arguing with any of the recent posters on this thread, I'd like to clarify about uncertainty as a farang retiree here:

Nobody expects absolute certainty about anything in this life, unless they're a fool. But when you decide to retire and settle in a foreign country, it's reasonable to expect that the official policy of your host nation will let you stay indefinitely. Year to year is not an indefinite period of time; it's a constant uncertainty.

As for me and my rented house, we are here for the indefinite duration. I do not recommend to any of my retirement age friends in the West that they come here 'permanently.' There is no permance here for farang, even if you have a wife and six kids.

Exactly right.

The one year leash is objectively what makes permanent retirement here a total illusion. It could easily be solved but it won't be.

I have never seen anywhere claims by the Thai authorities that retirees were going to get permanent status.

This is not part of the conditions of the visa extension they give you

The only visa that gives you that is permanent residence

All of us knew that when we decided to make the move

It would be nice to have but it is not and it was never suggested we would get it, we still choose to come and stay, we have to take responsibility for it.

For my part I think Thailand has more than enough respected its part of the deal (so far) and I am happy to bet it will in the future

[Jingthing]

Ov vey!

Nobody is saying the Thai government is being unreasonable asking us to show them some money!

All retirement visa programs ask that, in one form or another.

The core of the problem is the one year leash. It simply needs to be longer.

Also, buying real estate based on such uncertainty is foolish (I should know, I did it), so a different standard for such retired investors would also be most welcome, and provide real stability.

Krub, I agree the government never said once that they provide stability. Perm residence is not available to retirees so for retirees there are only two options: take it or leave it. So that would be another kind of solution, keeping the current system and providing a path towards retired perm residence after living here for a number of years.

I do know one thing for certain about this. If we continue to retire here in droves and buy real estate under such quicksand visa conditions, it certainly will never change for the better. As it is now, they don't have to compete at all with the better retirement visa programs out there because so many of us take their deal as it is. It could be they really don't want us anyway, hard to tell for sure, but if we stopped coming because their deal doesn't compete and they didn't blink, there would be the proof.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[Lancelot]

I understand the OPs concerns, but once you leave your home country it is totaly different. I have been on a retirement visa since 2003 and I do not plan on buying any real property here, ever. Rent is cheap and I like the idea of being flexible and mobile.

One of the downsides to asia is that westerners are mostly tolerated but not totally accepted. Its just the way it is...

South America anyone?

You are a wiser man than I am. (I bought.) Somone was looking for a business idea for Thailand. How about a Spanish language school?

On the other hand, while jogging on the beach, I met a fellow farang that couldn't say enough positive (bullish) things about the Pattaya property boom (his words.) He said he was making a nice rental income from his units and was looking for more opportunities to invest his capital here. I hope he makes a bundle but I am still not persuaded to buy any real property

Good luck with the school Jing!

[Krub]

Ov vey!

Nobody is saying the Thai government is being unreasonable asking us to show them some money!

All retirement visa programs ask that, in one form or another.

The core of the problem is the one year leash. It simply needs to be longer.

Also, buying real estate based on such uncertainty is foolish (I should know, I did it), so a different standard for such retired investors would also be most welcome, and provide real stability.

Krub, I agree the government never said once that they provide stability. Perm residence is not available to retirees so for retirees there are only two options: take it or leave it. So that would be another kind of solution, keeping the current system and providing a path towards retired perm residence after living here for a number of years.

I agree with you the system can be improved but unfortunately we can only wish for it.

You seem to imply that somehow the system is not fair, does not meet your expectations, etc. If this is the case you need to find your own solution because banging on the Thai authorities door might not have the desired effect you are looking for.

I went the permanent route in Japan (very hard similar to Thailand) but it was more than 30 years ago and it seemd worth it for me then.

I figure that with Thailand there will always be a way to stay as long as you can pay for your keep. Even now with all the 'crackdown' it only needs a 5.000 baht trip to Laos to get a double entry tourist visa without need for tickets or any money which gives you legal stay of 6 months (with extensions and 1 visa run).

Thailand is good value and easy to manage

[Jingthing]

No.

I am not saying it is not fair or they misled anyone.

I am saying it is not a very good (not stable) deal visa-wise, and other countries offer better retirement visa options for the long term.

I am warning others off Thailand for the reasons I have stated probably too many times.

On the visa run scenario, that is ridiculous! They are cracking down on people living here full time on such creative run situations. Do you think that would be appropriate for a 70 year old granny?

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[Krub]

No.

I am not saying it is not fair or they misled anyone.

I am saying it is not a very good (not stable) deal visa-wise, and other countries offer better retirement visa options for the long term.

I am warning others off Thailand for the reasons I have stated probably too many times.

On the visa run scenario, that is ridiculous! They are cracking down on people living here full time on such creative run situations. Do you think that would be appropriate for a 70 year old granny?

No I don't but the Granny knew it was part of the equation when she decided to settle for Thailand as we all do.

Yes it could well be that it becomes more difficult than it is now but it could well stay as easy or even get easier

Lets see what happens

In the mean time relax and enjoy your retirement (you are lucky you are already in Thailand), I still have to make the final move

[PeaceBlondie]

Krub, you are right that if we came here to retire, we knew full well that there was no permanency. But we still have the God-given right to bitch about it!

But right on topic, retiring in Thailand is NOT secure. Not permanent. Nor is teaching English in Thailand a good reason to come to Thailand, if you intend to pretend to make a 'career' out of it. Then next thing you know, Mr. English Ajarn has a wife and several luk krungs and he's stuck inside of Mukadahn with the Memphis blues again.

[roietjimmy]

It seems we all have agreement on a few issues related to retirement in Thailand.

1) The one that jumps up most is the the 1 year extension rule which implies non permanance. I don't like it either but as with us all "live with it". As with many posters in this OP, I would be much happier if it was 5 years. Would even pay more for it if it was to be changed. Don't want to mess up a good revenue source for Immigration!

2) The 90 day check-in makes no sense to me and needs to be changed. Seems to me a more reasonable rule would be to report an address change to Immigration (within x days of change).

What is clear however, exchanging complaints or wishes on TV will not change the rules. If there is any hope of getting things changed suggest retirees make themselves heard by sending comments to Immigration.

On this link http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php you will find a "Contact Us" tab. Select it then "Post comment" and send them a comment related to your wish for change. Don't ask why a certain rule is the rule but rather state clearly what you want changed. An example, for the above "Respectfully request the current 1 year visa extension rule for retirees in Thailand be extended to a 5 year period"

Maybe if enough of us do it there will be some changes at least considered.

Oops, almost forgot to add if you have a Thai wife or partner it wouldn't hurt to have them write a letter or go see your local MP to suggest the same. Might be an exercise in futility but can't hurt to try!

Edited August 20, 2007 by roietjimmy

[ProThaiExpat]

My perception is that Thais and their country are very materialistic. As long as the fees collected by Immigration are at the level they are now or greater, Thailand will always welcome retirees. That is without going to the issue of our cash contribution to the Thai economy by our spending and house buying.

I had a talk with the former head of Immigration in Chiang Mai, who complained to me that she was generating hundreds of thousands of baht a month in profit, income over salaries of immigration personnel and office expense, for the Thai government and yet she was so poorly paid. I guess she felt she was a de facto CEO.

Anyway, if the truth be known, my guess is nationwide, falang pay incredible amounts of fees for coming into, staying and leaving Thailand and there is no way the government wants that to end.

[chinthee]

Overall, I think every foreigner ultimately has some amount of insecurity with calling Thailand home permanently. Both married and retired with one year only renewals. However, on balance, most of us seem to work it out and would rather live here in this condition than elsewhere. I'll bet most smart expats living here also have a way to either return home or somewhere else.

It's hard to imagine a Thailand that would not have heaps of expats as now in the future. I personally don't think that will ever happen. With enough noise over the Foreign Business Act, the Thai-US treat of Amity, and other things up in the air, I believe this will all get more rational and reasonable with the installation of the new government.

Thailand will never be a place you can be assured of living forever. You just have to accept those terms.

[Kaojai]

name='roietjimmy' The assumption that because there are changes the government does not want us here, I believe to be inaccurate. Not long ago, the age to retire was lowered from 55 to 50 indicating a desire to encourage more to retire here. Increases in the amount of income one must have and the cost of getting the visa/extension have gone up over the years but this should not come as a surprise given escalation in the cost of living not only in Thailand but worldwide. The most recent or planned/rumored changes involving having 800,000 in the bank for at least 3 months before extension date and stricter verification of monthly income are a result of some people trying to "cheat the system" by pooling money to get 800,000 in the bank or falsifying their monthly incomes.

Yes, exactly. The three month requirement was implemented because people were being dishonest. Inflation makes it reasonable that, over time, the amount needed to live here (or anywhere) is going to rise. B800,000 is a reasonable amount to have on hand for annual living expenses. If you don't require the full amount, then you can bring in less the following year to keep the needed balance.

Medical expenses, cost-of-living when you are on a fixed income, etc will be problems anywhere.

There is no shortage of things to worry about in life, especially if you are living out of your own country. But there is nothing arbitrary or illogical in what Immigrations expects. Some people act as if the government were wildly changing the rules on a monthly basis and then the posters are using this false premise as an excuse to keep making negative comments about Immigrations and the government. The same people making these negative comments seem to criticize virtually everything about Thailand and the Thai people.

These people think they are capable of concealing this hostility when they deal with Thais, especially with Immigrations, but I'm sure their attitude isn't that difficult to see when they deal with these people and consequently they probably find it reciprocated.

If you want to worry, fine. Everyone needs a hobby or two. But stop acting as if it's the people at Immigrations who are the irrational ones.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Kaojai

[Jingthing]

Kanjai (sic),

I was offended by your post. You make rude assumptions based on vapor.

These people, schmeeze people, why don't you just stick to psychoanalyzing yourself?

I have said many times I love Thailand, enjoy the people, and want to stay here for the rest of my life.

But that doesn't mean I had a lobotomy at the airport. The immigration rules objectively create insecurity because thats all they offer. If you feel secure about them, you simply are in denial or not paying attention.

BTW, if you care to share, what is your agenda? Are you a real estate salesman? Are you Thai? Where you are coming from does make a difference.

Also, to future expats, don't assume you know how you will feel about this before you actually move here, lock, stock, and barrell. Intellectually you may be OK with it, but many of us really dislike how it feels once we are livin' it.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

I am not paranoid about the civil servant/police officers who staff the Immigration Police counters. I am insecure about the official policy of the Thai national government toward foreigners like myself who retire here. I came here to teach English, which I did very well, but I stopped working for Thai government schools that were not giving me legal work permit although I was fully qualified.

Let me advise those who are reading this back in the west: if you value security, if you cannot handle the very real prospect that you could be forced out of Thailand in the next 12 months, indefinitely for the forseeable future, DO NOT RETIRE IN THAILAND.

You can have a mai bpen rai attitude about a lot of things. One's long term immigration status is no minor matter. It is a problem. Repeat: Bangkok, we have a problem.

Added: let's not get personal or insulting, okay? And thanks to the guy who suggested we write to Immigration, which I did.

[Jingthing]

Let me advise those who are reading this back in the west: if you value security, if you cannot handle the very real prospect that you could be forced out of Thailand in the next 12 months, indefinitely for the forseeable future, DO NOT RETIRE IN THAILAND.

I agree of course, but want to repeat a further caution. Human beings are very poor at predicting how they feel at a future time. The person you will be in the future is not exactly the same person you are today. I believe that a decent percentage of people who think they will be OK with this BEFORE they do it (especially macho men types), will not feel the same way once they actually do it.