Why Do So Few Get Residency?

[thaigene2]

Is That language requirement enforced? - that is the only thing which prevents me from going for this residency status. I'm just not smart enough

It was brought in by the clean living foreign hater, Purachai, who owns his own landed property in New Zealand bought on his policeman's and academic's savings and sent his kids to Kiwi private schools. It is definitely enforced but is apparently very easy. Immigration was unhappy about the requirement, so they just take the p*** out of it. It is multiple choice and the answers are obvious to any one with the most rudimentary knowledge of Thai who is not a complete moron. They video tape the tests to prove no corruption is involved in the virtually 100% pass rates! A friend who definitely cannot speak more than a few words of mangled Thai passed it with no trouble.

Thanks - but is it a 'written test' or aural/oral? If the latter I'd agree it may not be too hard. If it's written I'm sunk.

[skippybangkok]

(d) become a director of a public company; and

I am not sure about this one. I know of plenty of public listed companies where the directors are foreigners without PR's. Can u elaborate ? If u could take the thai shareholding, now that would be great !

[tracer5050]

This may not be in the right Forum. But as some people have brought up Thai Driving license. I come and go 4 or 5 times each year. I some time in up country use a international driving license . So far no trouble . But am i asking for trouble if i am stopped by the Boys in Brown. Any help would be appreciated.

[fabianfred]

I think one poster said that having a Thai driving license meant they didn't have to carry their passport around with them.....I believe we are meant to carry it at all times... although having a photocopy of every page may be accepted instead..

I have been getting the one year visa extensions for eight years now...since getting married.... and have to have 200k in the bank....and I also have my army pension...

Would Residence mean i wouldn't have to keep any money in a bank and wouldn't have to get a visa extension each year??

[Briggsy]

I have lived and worked in Thailand for over 10 years. I have held a work permit and yearly visa extensions for the whole period. I can speak and write Thai. I have supported myself from my earnings and saved over a third of my total salary.

Can I get permanent residency? No. Why not? I don't earn enough in Thailand to pay sufficient income tax to reach the threshold required for permanent residency.

The OP may not be fully aware of all the requirements. It is certainly not as straightforward as "3 years on extensions, right, here's the money, Where's my alien residence book."

[ludosiam]

My reason to not applying for PR is simply the ignorance from the immigration department. I have asked them several times, last time this June when the application time frame is open, with no answer. I do fulfill all requirements, but no idea when I can apply so don't bother anymore. Would be nice to have PR status but it's not inconvenient without so far.

[KamnanT]

My reason to not applying for PR is simply the ignorance from the immigration department. I have asked them several times, last time this June when the application time frame is open, with no answer. I do fulfill all requirements, but no idea when I can apply so don't bother anymore. Would be nice to have PR status but it's not inconvenient without so far.

The application period for permanent residence is in December each year. The Immigration Bureau publishes a notice announcing the first day for applications; the last last day is normally the last working day of the year. I applied in December 2005 and the application period was only one week (5 working days). Needless to say, it was a bit busy in room 301 at Suan Phlu.

[KamnanT]

Is That language requirement enforced? - that is the only thing which prevents me from going for this residency status. I'm just not smart enough

It was brought in by the clean living foreign hater, Purachai, who owns his own landed property in New Zealand bought on his policeman's and academic's savings and sent his kids to Kiwi private schools. It is definitely enforced but is apparently very easy. Immigration was unhappy about the requirement, so they just take the p*** out of it. It is multiple choice and the answers are obvious to any one with the most rudimentary knowledge of Thai who is not a complete moron. They video tape the tests to prove no corruption is involved in the virtually 100% pass rates! A friend who definitely cannot speak more than a few words of mangled Thai passed it with no trouble.

Thanks - but is it a 'written test' or aural/oral? If the latter I'd agree it may not be too hard. If it's written I'm sunk.

The Thai language competency test is an oral test. On the day of your interview (normally scheduled 4 to 8 weeks after your application is lodged), your case officer will complete an affadavit summarising the details of your application: date and place of birth, date of initial entry into Thailand, employment and income details, etc. The affadavit is in Thai and at the end of the session you will be asked to sign it.

The test is one of the last steps and it will be videotaped so that each of the government agencies that reviews your application will also have the opportunity to laugh at your pronounciation. You will be asked to introduce yourself and say a few things about yourself in Thai ("My name is...., I was born in...., I work at....). This is a set piece that you can rehearse in advance. Next, there are several sets of 10 multiple choice questions written in Thai and your case officer will choose one at random. He/she will read each question VERY slowly (in Thai, of course) and each of the four answers to each question. You will be required to choose one of the four answers. The questions themselves are a combination of basic knowledge of Thailand ("How many changwat are there in Thailand?") and, rather unusually, questions about the PR application process itself ("If you are successful in your application, how many days will you have to apply for your residence certificate?"). There are lists of past questions circulating on the WWW and if you employ an immigration attorney/consultant to assist you, they will inevitably have a list of potential questions to rehearse.

I would classify my own spoken Thai language capability as "intermediate" and I cannot read or write (I know - shame, shame), but got a perfect score on the test with only a couple of hours of preparation. If permanent residence is otherwise a viable option, I wouldn't be put off by the Thai language capability test alone.

[CWMcMurray]

I have lived and worked in Thailand for over 10 years. I have held a work permit and yearly visa extensions for the whole period. I can speak and write Thai. I have supported myself from my earnings and saved over a third of my total salary.

Can I get permanent residency? No. Why not? I don't earn enough in Thailand to pay sufficient income tax to reach the threshold required for permanent residency.

The OP may not be fully aware of all the requirements. It is certainly not as straightforward as "3 years on extensions, right, here's the money, Where's my alien residence book."

I realize that the process is long and complicated but I'm fairly young and I could very well be living here for another 40 or 50 years. So it does seem like an easier path than applying for a visa every year.

I have researched it and spoke with a lawyer as well and I am guessing that you are not married? I have been informed that if you are not married the required income level is fairly high, 80,000 baht per month; but if you are married to a Thai national then it is much lower, 30,000 baht per month. If you are a woman married to a Thai man then I don't believe that there is any income requirement, they will look at your husband's financials but I don't believe there is any minimum requirement.

[Farang99]

That's OK for those of you who are blessed with good ears.

For myself, I would like residency, but the language requirement scuppers me.

I am somewhat-considerably tone deaf, and have zilch aural memory. (I have to see a word written down to have any chance of remembering it.)

I don't think that tones are that important in reality, it may not sound perfect, but 99% of the time when you say a sentence the word will be taken in context.

Also the best way to learn Thai is to see it written down, personally I always have to see the word written down in Thai script to fully understand how it is pronounced.

And that is why all the language schools that just rely on "phonetic transliterations" into English are less than useless. Thai has so many vowels that can't be recorded in English script, not to mention the distinction between aspirated and non=aspirated consonants! The tone values are less important, in my experience, than getting the sounds and the sentence structure right.

[younghusband]

Is That language requirement enforced? - that is the only thing which prevents me from going for this residency status. I'm just not smart enough

It was brought in by the clean living foreign hater, Purachai, who owns his own landed property in New Zealand bought on his policeman's and academic's savings and sent his kids to Kiwi private schools. It is definitely enforced but is apparently very easy. Immigration was unhappy about the requirement, so they just take the p*** out of it. It is multiple choice and the answers are obvious to any one with the most rudimentary knowledge of Thai who is not a complete moron. They video tape the tests to prove no corruption is involved in the virtually 100% pass rates! A friend who definitely cannot speak more than a few words of mangled Thai passed it with no trouble.

Thanks - but is it a 'written test' or aural/oral? If the latter I'd agree it may not be too hard. If it's written I'm sunk.

The Thai language competency test is an oral test. On the day of your interview (normally scheduled 4 to 8 weeks after your application is lodged), your case officer will complete an affadavit summarising the details of your application: date and place of birth, date of initial entry into Thailand, employment and income details, etc. The affadavit is in Thai and at the end of the session you will be asked to sign it.

The test is one of the last steps and it will be videotaped so that each of the government agencies that reviews your application will also have the opportunity to laugh at your pronounciation. You will be asked to introduce yourself and say a few things about yourself in Thai ("My name is...., I was born in...., I work at....). This is a set piece that you can rehearse in advance. Next, there are several sets of 10 multiple choice questions written in Thai and your case officer will choose one at random. He/she will read each question VERY slowly (in Thai, of course) and each of the four answers to each question. You will be required to choose one of the four answers. The questions themselves are a combination of basic knowledge of Thailand ("How many changwat are there in Thailand?") and, rather unusually, questions about the PR application process itself ("If you are successful in your application, how many days will you have to apply for your residence certificate?"). There are lists of past questions circulating on the WWW and if you employ an immigration attorney/consultant to assist you, they will inevitably have a list of potential questions to rehearse.

I would classify my own spoken Thai language capability as "intermediate" and I cannot read or write (I know - shame, shame), but got a perfect score on the test with only a couple of hours of preparation. If permanent residence is otherwise a viable option, I wouldn't be put off by the Thai language capability test alone.

An excellent post which precisely and accurately sums up the language requirements for PR.I also fully agree the final sentence.I would also go a little further and suggest that if all other requirements were met or exceeded the officials at Suan Plu would "guide" even a non Thai speaker over the rather low language hurdle.

On the bad news (for some) front while I am aware there are several successful applicants with low to medium incomes (say Bt 100,000-80,000 pm), those successful applicants I have known are mainly in the Bt 300,000 pm upwards category.

[TheChiefJustice]

If you are a woman married to a Thai man then I don't believe that there is any income requirement, they will look at your husband's financials but I don't believe there is any minimum requirement.

If you are a foreign woman married to a Thai man you do not need to apply for PR. You can simply apply for Thai citizenship on the basis of your marriage.

Edited August 20, 2007 by TheChiefJustice

[wca01]

I have been informed that if you are not married the required income level is fairly high, 80,000 baht per month; but if you are married to a Thai national then it is much lower, 30,000 baht per month. If you are a woman married to a Thai man then I don't believe that there is any income requirement, they will look at your husband's financials but I don't believe there is any minimum requirement.

Very very unlikely that you will get a PR with an income less than Baht 80,000, even if you are married to a Thai.

WCA

[CWMcMurray]

Very very unlikely that you will get a PR with an income less than Baht 80,000, even if you are married to a Thai.

WCA

Why not? I can see if you are from a country where it is very competitive but if you come from a country where they never reach the 100 threshold then I don't see how you could get turned down as long as you meet all of the minimum requirements.

On what are you basing this on?

Is there anyone out there who has met all of the requirements and still been turned down even if the 100 number has not been reached?

[p_brownstone]

In response to CWMcMurray:

The Quota is a maximum, not a minimum.

There is no requirement for the Authorities to get as many PR applicants as possible from any given Country - the main criteria are Income (and, particularly, Income Tax payments), committment and contribution to Thailand etc..

Patrick

[CWMcMurray]

I realize that it is a max number and not a min but it sounds like what you are saying is that even if you qualify in terms of Income and Income tax payments they may still turn you down for the sole reason that you don't make enough money.

Are you saying that the published income and tax criteria are not the actual income and tax criteria? Is there an unwritten ammount that is the real number?

Has anyone who is married got their PR making less than 80,000?

[TheChiefJustice]

The grant of PR is entirely discretionary. The minimum requirements that you are talking about are those that will permit you to SUBMIT an application to the Immigration Department. Just because you meet those minimum requirements and have submitted an application does not automatically guarantee you PR. The Immigration Department is not obliged to inform unsuccessful applications of the reasons why their applications were unsuccessful. I know several people who met the minimum requirements, submitted an application, and were rejected.

[CWMcMurray]

Do you know anyone who made less than 80,000 and was not rejected?

[Briggsy]

I have lived and worked in Thailand for over 10 years. I have held a work permit and yearly visa extensions for the whole period. I can speak and write Thai. I have supported myself from my earnings and saved over a third of my total salary.

Can I get permanent residency? No. Why not? I don't earn enough in Thailand to pay sufficient income tax to reach the threshold required for permanent residency.

The OP may not be fully aware of all the requirements. It is certainly not as straightforward as "3 years on extensions, right, here's the money, Where's my alien residence book."

I realize that the process is long and complicated but I'm fairly young and I could very well be living here for another 40 or 50 years. So it does seem like an easier path than applying for a visa every year.

I have researched it and spoke with a lawyer as well and I am guessing that you are not married? I have been informed that if you are not married the required income level is fairly high, 80,000 baht per month; but if you are married to a Thai national then it is much lower, 30,000 baht per month. If you are a woman married to a Thai man then I don't believe that there is any income requirement, they will look at your husband's financials but I don't believe there is any minimum requirement.

You are quite correct. I am unmarried. An annual taxable income in Thailand of approx. 1million Baht for 3 consecutive years is what you need in my situation. For a whole host of reasons, that ain't gonna happen so I will forever remain outside of the requirements for permanent residency.

[wca01]

It's an "unwritten law" that you must have paid taxes in Thailand for at least 3 years based on an income for not less than 80,000 Baht.

WCA

[thai_narak]

there is one requirement that is blocking many of us; work permit (and paid taxes from work).

younger dudes have been staying in thailand with only spouse visa since they have jobs or businesses outside thailand. having to work inside thailand would not be sufficient enough to support a family. besides, the salary might not even enough for the salary requirement when applying for a resident cert if working locally.

retirees are not allowed to work and therefore they cannot have work permits unless they invest 10 million baht or more or else residency route is not an option for them.

for singles, you have to be super rich to be qualified for resident cert investing 10 million baht or more.

conclusion, IMHO, the requirements for resident cert are contradictory and bloody difficult to attain. for example, the category to "support a family" or "humanitarian reason" also needs work permit requirements. won't a farang able to support his thai family if not working in thailand? having a thai wife, thai children, house, car, etc., speaking the thai language, and staying for more than 10 years in thailand won't just qualify you for a residency if you do not have work permit.

IMHO, they should relax the residency requirements for foreigners who support their thai families. besides, it is only like a long term visa which can also be revoke...

[Briggsy]

there is one requirement that is blocking many of us; work permit (and paid taxes from work).

younger dudes have been staying in thailand with only spouse visa since they have jobs or businesses outside thailand. having to work inside thailand would not be sufficient enough to support a family. besides, the salary might not even enough for the salary requirement when applying for a resident cert if working locally.

retirees are not allowed to work and therefore they cannot have work permits unless they invest 10 million baht or more or else residency route is not an option for them.

for singles, you have to be super rich to be qualified for resident cert investing 10 million baht or more.

conclusion, IMHO, the requirements for resident cert are contradictory and bloody difficult to attain. for example, the category to "support a family" or "humanitarian reason" also needs work permit requirements. won't a farang able to support his thai family if not working in thailand? having a thai wife, thai children, house, car, etc., speaking the thai language, and staying for more than 10 years in thailand won't just qualify you for a residency if you do not have work permit.

IMHO, they should relax the residency requirements for foreigners who support their thai families. besides, it is only like a long term visa which can also be revoke...

Good post, highlighting the catch 22 of residency requirements. Namely either work outside Thailand, support Thai family, pay no Thai income tax so no PR. Or work in Thailand, support Thai family, don't earn enough to pay 50,000 Baht a year in Thai income tax so no PR.

[thaigene2]

Yes. It's pretty clear they are not really interested in you staying here...and are making your stay more difficult with each passing year. There is nothing that I can see that would suggest that this as-till-now sustained course of action will reverse in the coming years. If anything, it will likely get tighter and tighter.

Another reason not to make any big ticket purchases here. If you are married to a thai woman and have kids , you need to be mobile enough that you can up-sticks and move out of the country with the least hassle and costs should that become necessary. It's not fair - but who ever said life was fair?

[thaigene2]

Further to my post directly above. On the other hand, they may decide if you've already bought something and you're an old guy - that it would look bad to boot you out of the country. So they may invoke some grandfather clause for those who already own a condo here - so as not to cause hardship. A sort of international PR thing.

Then again, as by now there can be few doubters about the situation, this seems to be a place where the elites run the country absolutely for themselves and couldn't care less about the poor Thai majority and will run a steamroller over them at will...so why would they give a rat's ass about the poor foreign minority? Food for thought.

Edited August 21, 2007 by thaigene2

[samran]

Just a couple of random thoughts with no real conclusion.........

1) the main problem I have with the way that the law is currently structured is that it is a bit of a blunt tool.

I have no doubt that income criteria for men (both at the non-immigrant and then at the PR stage) are there obstensibly to prevent marriages of convinience so that some bloke who has fallen in love with Patters or Nana doesn't marry some chick for money so he can get an easy visa. And there would be plenty of them. This of course discriminates against a large group who are legimately married (my parents included), and this latter group get diddly squat from the RTG in terms of rights to stay and rights to work. What to do? I am not sure.

2) PR for retirees I don't believe is the international norm...but I am happy to be proven wrong on this.

3) The other thought I have going through my mind is (and which probably contradicts my first point), is that even if you could get rights to work here when married would you even earn enough to live here? Some people state that the income rules prevent them from even getting extensions which will allow them to eventually qualify for PR. Which is a fair enough point......But what about the raw economics of it all??

For many, wouldn't the fact that wages and salaries for most jobs here are low, meaning that the default option for most would be to move back to farang land instead? Sure, if you were a plumber, accountant, nurse, or bus driver say in the UK, and you migrated to OZ, NZ or the US, you could get by. But to pick up your former trade in Thailand would lead most to financial oblivion - even for those who don't put a huge premium on high pay. Plus there is the language factor. Who is going to employ you even IF you had the right to work? Sure, there would be some English speaking jobs out there, but not enough for everyone. It is a bit of a catch-22 to begin with, even if you didn't have the hassels of the exisiting laws. But I guess the point is that everyone deserves a chance....

Anyway, as i said, just some random food for thought.

[A_Traveller]

I know this is the UK, but as a comparison:-

Permanent residence _______________________________ Time needed to gain permanent residency

HSMP and Work permit ________________________________ 5 years

Ancestry ____________________________________________ 5 years

Marriage _____________________________________________ 2 years

Unmarried partners ____________________________________ 2 years

Investors ____________________________________________ 5 years

Writers, composers and artists __________________________ 5 years

Sole reps ___________________________________________ 5 years

Persons establishing themselves in business _______________ 5 years

Unlawful stay or a combination of lawful and unlawful stay ___ 14 years

Lawful stay on any basis ______________________________ 10 years

Requirement to take the 'Life in the UK' test

This used to be called Indefinite Leave to Remain.

Regards

PS Oh for a table editor....

PPS Website

[Old Man River]

Unless there is some advantage to PR that I'm missing (other than paying the Thai entry fee to national parks)...

While there are several advantages to having PR status as already mentioned, paying the Thai entry fee to national parks is not one of them. I have tried, but am always told that I have to be Thai to pay as a Thai. So it goes.

[CWMcMurray]

Good post, highlighting the catch 22 of residency requirements. Namely either work outside Thailand, support Thai family, pay no Thai income tax so no PR. Or work in Thailand, support Thai family, don't earn enough to pay 50,000 Baht a year in Thai income tax so no PR.

It may not be worth it but if you really wanted Residency couldn't you simply pay the 50,000 in tax without a work permit and state that it is income from outside of Thailand?

Technically if you spend more than 180 days in Thailand you are supposed to pay taxes on any income made working outside of Thailand that is bought into the country in the same year that it was made.

Many people try to ensure that they do not bring money into the country until the following year to avoid taxes but if you want to pay taxes it shouldn't be a problem. Just tell them that you don't work in Thailand but you are claiming the income you made from outside. Then you can pay taxes and qualify for residency without having a work permit.

Has anyone ever tried this?

[samran]

Many people try to ensure that they do not bring money into the country until the following year to avoid taxes but if you want to pay taxes it shouldn't be a problem. Just tell them that you don't work in Thailand but you are claiming the income you made from outside. Then you can pay taxes and qualify for residency without having a work permit.

Has anyone ever tried this?

I beleive that they want to see a work permit as well....

[CWMcMurray]

OK I wasn't sure; just throwing it out there to see what people think. Sounded like good legal reasoning but that doesn't mean it would actually work.