Farangs And Falangs

[garro]

Well here it may just have something to do with little ole'Laos. Since everyone here says falang . . . since it's spelt that way (I would show you but TV doesn't seem to support Lao script) and as a large majority of the North and North East of Thailand (Lao-Issan) used to be part of Lao I would expect here is where the difference comes from.

Since full bloodied Thai - mainly in Bangkok and surrounds is totally unlike anything Issan or Lao. Personally as much as I can understand and follow conversation in Lao and Issan - full bloodied Bangkok Thai I have absolutely no idea just the odd word here and there that'll be the same!

So just maybe people who say falang have been in a different areas of the country than you . . . don't be so quick to judge especially why it appears you have what appears a very limited knowledge of dialects in Thailand.

I speak Thai every day and use the local dialect with my neighbors in Phitsanulok, which is very similar to the dialect spoken in Northeast Thailand and from my brief visits similar to what is spoken in เวียงจันธ์ Vientiane Laos. The local population does pronunce their 'r' sound as 'L' but as I previously mentioned they write it with an r.

I believe you when you say that in Lao script they use 'L' but as I find Laos script difficult to read I can't confirm this. I think it is a bit irrelavant though because if we were to use Laos script as well as Thai script for transliteration there would be chaos.

[sceadugenga]

Well here it may just have something to do with little ole'Laos. Since everyone here says falang . . . since it's spelt that way (I would show you but TV doesn't seem to support Lao script) and as a large majority of the North and North East of Thailand (Lao-Issan) used to be part of Lao I would expect here is where the difference comes from.

Since full bloodied Thai - mainly in Bangkok and surrounds is totally unlike anything Issan or Lao. Personally as much as I can understand and follow conversation in Lao and Issan - full bloodied Bangkok Thai I have absolutely no idea just the odd word here and there that'll be the same!

So just maybe people who say falang have been in a different areas of the country than you . . . don't be so quick to judge especially why it appears you have what appears a very limited knowledge of dialects in Thailand.

Since it is spelt in Thai with a R - rua not L- ling and we are in Thailand not Laos your point is moot. The correct anglicised spelling and pronunciation of the word is farung. Anyone farung pronouncing it falung or falang or any other derivation is incorrect and only showing their ignorance. To continue to argue it is to reinforce that ignorance.

CB

Harsh words CB, I personally see people who have difficulty spelling my board name but do I class them as ignoramuses?..hang on that would ignorami surely.

Seriously though, we are witnesses to the degeneration of every modern language, Engrish seems to acquire new words every year and lose as many. I saw the Lao children losing their language because most watch Thai TV; my ex would sing along with the Thai national anthem! Wishful thinking maybe?

[technocracy]

I was consuming a few Beer Lao... quite a few, one night in Chez Cafe with a couple of long term expats who assured me that the letter R, or the equivalent Lao sound had been banned by the Communist Government because it had "Royal connotations".

Not sure I believed that though.

Erm not exactly the R sound used to be part of the alphabet but it was dropped to the L sound, as far as I am aware this happened over time rather than being enforced. Although what the communists did do was to actually standardise the alphabet and part of this standardisation was the removal from the alphabet of the R which wasn't really used.

Just to add none of my wifes family including 80+ year old grand parents etc. say farang but falang - so I think it was some time ago that the R sound drop out of use.

Since it is spelt in Thai with a R - rua not L- ling and we are in Thailand not Laos your point is moot. The correct anglicised spelling and pronunciation of the word is farung. Anyone farung pronouncing it falung or falang or any other derivation is incorrect and only showing their ignorance. To continue to argue it is to reinforce that ignorance.

CB

My comment was purely stating that since most of northern Thailand was Laos previously and in general they speak Issan-Lao rather than Bangkokian Thai. So this *MAY* (important word here just like in the previous post) be a reason why some say falang and some say farang. But obviously I must be ignorant to have the audacity to think something other than you.

Edited August 22, 2007 by technocracy

[lannarebirth]

Seriously though, we are witnesses to the degeneration of every modern language,

I think you may have stumbled onto something quite profound here sceadugenga. A bit off topic, but I believe there's a major purge of secondary and tertiary languages underway, while at the same time major languages are finding ways to smooth over or ignore those parts that cause greatest misunderstanding. Globally, language is changing at light speed now.

[londonthai]

Seriously though, I think this forum is a fantastic subject for a novel. I must get round to it one day.

your novel might be poor if you exclude a large part of this community who can't spell even proper english.

still, to see the full picture of thailand you have to talk to those who can't read and write - some 10% of adults. And those who don't have a computer.

Edited August 22, 2007 by londonthai

[KhaoNiaw]

I could be wrong but I think the use of ล for ร is a growing phenomenon in Thai. It is one of the things I hear teachers complaining about most in the way the younger generation speak.

[Neeranam]

I have a theory.

The type of farang who uses the word 'falang' has spent too much time around Thai's who can't say 'farang'. Read into that what you will . ..

I too have a theory.

The type of falang who thinks that the plural of Thai is 'Thai's' has not spent enough time around a classroom and would - as a consequence - be well advised not to attempt to sneer at others.

But it's only a theory.

[bendix]

It's a hel_l of a thing when you start a topic (which has been started many time before) and you're bored of it after only three pages.

[Neeranam]

Som Nam Na I'd quietly try to let this thread drift quietly away I were you.

That's karma in action.

[technocracy]

I could be wrong but I think the use of ล for ร is a growing phenomenon in Thai. It is one of the things I hear teachers complaining about most in the way the younger generation speak.

The ล script is basically the same as one of the L scripts in Lao although not the one use in falang.

As for being in Thailand not Lao and it being a moot point how come then I frequently hear in movies (both Thai and overdubbed) and TV programs - Saa bai dee or kop jai rather than Saawaadeekap or kop kun kap?

[highdiver]

It's a hel_l of a thing when you start a topic (which has been started many time before) and you're bored of it after only three pages.

one can safely assume that it was boredom that strted it in the first place

[meadish_sweetball]

Lao and Thai are part of the same dialect continuum and mutually intelligible with some effort, but the written languages and spoken standards of both have developed away from each other and are now separate national languages.

Standard Lao has no /r/ sound, only /l/. Standard Thai however, does have an /r/ sound - but the tendency in the spoken language is that /r/ and /l/ are variations of one and the same sound rather than viewed as two separate sounds.

I.e. similar to /w/ and /hw/ in English. Most people pronounce no initial /h/ in "what" "where" etc. unless they concentrate on it (although some do, mostly older North Americans?). The point though is that you can pronounce "what", "which" and "where" with no /h/ sound and everybody will understand you without a problem and not correct it. In fact, many people probably will not notice if others pronounce it that way or not unless they concentrate... Same thing in spoken Thai with /l/ and /r/.

The Isaan dialects, in reality, are more similar to Standard Lao than to Standard Thai, but Isaan children are taught to trill their /r/s in school just like Thai schoolchildren all over the country. They do not bring this habit over to their own dialect though.

In the street, Thais will not correct each other, or misunderstand each other, for replacing one sound with the other. In everyday conversation most people would not even notice or care.

When trying to teach schoolchildren to speak correctly though, the importance of separating the two sounds is stressed. The problem is that the change has gone so far that many teachers cannot maintain the difference properly either, unless they concentrate very hard on doing so. Sometimes this results in sounds that should be /l/ becoming /r/ instead.

Can't believe I replied to this again.

[technocracy]

Lao and Thai are part of the same dialect continuum and mutually intelligible with some effort, but the written languages and spoken standards of both have developed away from each other and are now separate national languages.

..snip

Careful you'll be called ignorant in a minute!

But I fully agree with everything in your post.

[JetsetBkk]

In my experience those who like to write 'falang' usually picked up their Thai from a bar.

Agreed. And that's where I got it from.

I'm not too sure about the Cambodian speaking areas of Isarn but in Cambodia itself the locals have no problem with their 'R'.

My g/f is from Cambodia - her parents speak Cambodian and Thai, but now live near Sisaket. She enjoys over-exaggerating the trilling of the 'R' in a lot of Thai words. Sometimes she will dream up a sentence with nearly every word containing a 'raw rua' and trilling each one for a second or more just to make the point that she can do it and I can't.

Of the Thais who pronounce the 'raw rua' as 'law ling', she calls them 'lazy'

Here's the "correct" way to pronounce "raw rua": http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/basic/sounds/csound35.wav

And here's "law ling": http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/basic/sounds/csound36.wav

Can't believe I replied to this again.

I, for one, am glad you did.

[Jeff1]

It's a hel_l of a thing when you start a topic (which has been started many time before) and you're bored of it after only three pages.

So why did you start it?

Is it to show us that you associate with educated Thai only and the rest are beneath you and your social circle? I thought you were more open minded. Don't prove me wrong, I like you. Your very smart and you make me laugh. I also find myself agreeing with you, most of the time.

However, as one here said. I am on the side of being understood, rather than correct. My spoken Thai is very limited, what I know I have learned from people that say "falong". Would I try to correct them? I think not.

[WaiWai]

Thanks, Mr Sweetball.

So, no reason we shouldn't transcribe what we are hearing ( /r/ or /l/, or whichever is nearer ) in our particular locales as either "r" or "l" ?

[qwertz]

It's a hel_l of a thing when you start a topic (which has been started many time before) and you're bored of it after only three pages.

So why did you start it?

Is it to show us that you associate with educated Thai only and the rest are beneath you and your social circle? I thought you were more open minded. Don't prove me wrong, I like you. Your very smart and you make me laugh. I also find myself agreeing with you, most of the time.

However, as one here said. I am on the side of being understood, rather than correct. My spoken Thai is very limited, what I know I have learned from people that say "falong". Would I try to correct them? I think not.

The answer to all this is quite simple - bendix is having a button pushing moment.

Give the poor bugger a little attention.

[lazeeboy]

Why oh why do people say 'falang' when it is obviously 'farang'?

Would a foreigner unable to pronounce the letter 'r' and calls a rabbit a 'wabbit' also write 'wabbit' in a letter or a forum post? No, I think not. So copy this mispronunciation, both verbally and in writing? Why 'falang'?

I have a theory.

The type of farang who uses the word 'falang' has spent too much time around Thai's who can't say 'farang'. Read into that what you will . ..

What a busy guy you must be to find the time to start topics like these...

either way you say it everyone understands you.........

[bendix]

The answer to all this is quite simple - bendix is having a button pushing moment.

Give the poor bugger a little attention.

Yes, but highdiver was more accurate. Sheer unadulterated boredom. Still, it's earned a few stars, so it can't be all that bad.

And attention? Why not? It's my birthday.

[meadish_sweetball]

Wai Wai, I guess not - my personal preference is writing it as 'farang', but that's probably because I studied Standard Thai and was taught to pronounce it with a trilled /r/.

I should add that if you want to be taken seriously by Thais in formal situations, it's a good idea to observe the /l/ vs. /r/ distinction when you speak Thai.

Happy Birthday Bendix.

[garro]

The answer to all this is quite simple - bendix is having a button pushing moment.

Give the poor bugger a little attention.

Yes, but highdiver was more accurate. Sheer unadulterated boredom. Still, it's earned a few stars, so it can't be all that bad.

And attention? Why not? It's my birthday.

Is it really?

Well many happy returns.

I can think of nothing better to do on a birthday than winding people up.

Your not a punk are you? I always admired the Johnny Rotten approach of spitting on people to see how they react.

Enjoy the rest of your birthday and remember even punks need to grow up some day.

Edited August 22, 2007 by garro

[qwertz]

Many of 'em, bendix.

Post on bro', I like a good chuckle.

[farangsay]

Happy birthday Bendix !

You slipped that in discretely you shy bugger you.

PS

I was thinking of slipping off to a neighbouring nation where the term is "barang".

If I pronounce that with an 'l' will people mark me down as a low-life?

PPS

Is there any country where the term for foreignor is "borrocks" ?

[cm das]

I should add that if you want to be taken seriously by Thais in formal situations, it's a good idea to observe the /l/ vs. /r/ distinction when you speak Thai.

This is a good point. Most of my educated friends say falang, alai, aloi, etc. in informal situations but switch to the r sound in a formal context. Me, I never speak Thai in formal contexts, and I can't trill my r's either, so I imitate my friends & use the l. (I should add that I'm up north - Chiang Mai & Phayao). But I think we're all missing an important question & that is: What is a word? Is it a group of letters? In my opinion, a word is a sound or group of sounds. The letters are there to represent the sounds. Of course there are normative spellings for written language, but I don' believe that the visual form of a word should have priority over its sound. There may be standard & non-standard pronunciations, or formal & informal, but if you're surrounded by native speakers who use one pronunciation, how is it wrong for you to copy the sounds they make?

[farangsay]

One time , working for a company in France , us "falangs" were provided with French lessons.

The guy decided my French wasn't bad but he hammered me on pronunciation.

I looked him in the eye and told him "Our mother told us not to roll our R's as it attracts strange men" !

[WaiWai]

The written forms "farang" and "falang" (transliterations in the Roman alphabet) are not going to be used much outside of foreigner forums like this, are they ?

Just use the one you feel is representative of what you say.

[canuckamuck]

Happy Birthday Bendix:

By The way, I say falang becuse thats what my Thai freinds say. I assume their Thai is better than mine.

I write farang here because I don't want the pedantic hawks that live here to get all distracted by something irrelevant.

Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang.

That felt good!

Edited August 22, 2007 by canuckamuck

[uptou]

all this farang falang talk is nonsense.everybody knows its falung.

[garro]

Happy Birthday Bendix:

By The way, I say falang becuse thats what my Thai freinds say. I assume their Thai is better than mine.

I write farang here because I don't want the pedantic hawks that live here to get all distracted by something irrelevant.

Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang Falang.

That felt good!

You're a preb

Edited August 22, 2007 by garro

[Grover]

try getting a "riap roi" Thai lady to say "peanuts" as in "I like to eat peanuts"

always brings a smile to my face

Spoken its "falang" (spoken quickly with second syllable dropping slightly in tone), written it is "farang"... IMO.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Grover