Lucid Dreaming: Dzogchen & Dream Yoga

[thaicurious]

re: moderator's action on prior topic of lucid dreaming

Moved to general topics, not relevant to Buddhism.

i submit for your consideration the words of the dalai lama in dreaming, sleeping & dying, wisdom press, 1997.

"there is said to be a relationship between dreaming, on the one hand, and the gross and subtle levels of the body on the other. but it's also said there is such a thing as a 'special dream state.' in that state, the 'special dream body' is created from the mind and from vital energy (known in sansrit as prana) within the body. this special dream body is able to disassociate entirely from the gross physical body and travel elsewhere."

"one way of developing this special dream body is first of all to recognize the dream as a dream when it occurs. then, you find the dream is malleable, and you make efforts to gain control over it. gradually you become very skilled in this, increasing your ability to control the contents of the dream so that it accords to your own desires. eventually it is possible to dissociate your dream body from your gross physical body. in contrast, in the normal dream state, dreaming occurs within the body. but as a result of specific training, the dream body can go elsewhere. this first technique is accomplished entirely by the power of desire or aspiration."

it seems that some people have this ability naturally, without any specific practice…."

what his holiness describes above is in fact lucid dreaming also known as dream yoga which is an intricate part of dzogpa chenpo aka dzogchen aka ati yoga aka the great perfection from the tibetan school of buddhism and bon.

perhaps the moderator might reconsider the decision to declare lucid dreaming irrelevant to buddhism.

further support for relevancy:

from tenzin wangyal rinpoche in the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep, snow lion press, 1998

"dream yoga developes the capacity that we all have for lucid dreaming. a lucid dream, in this context, is one in which the dreamer is aware during the dream that he or she is dreaming."

Edited August 28, 2007 by thaicurious

[thaicurious]

further support for relevancy:

from the tibetan book of the dead w.y. evans-wentz translation, third edition, oxford university press, 1960.

"the bardo state is the after-death dream state following the waking or living-on-earth state...and the whole aim of the bardo thodol teaching is to awaken the dreamer to realty--to a supramundane state of consciousness, to an annihilation of all bonds of sangadric existence, to perfect enlightenment, buddhahood."

Edited August 28, 2007 by thaicurious

[Grover]

The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness towards enlightenment can not be achieved through the lucid dream state as far as I know.

[NotYetArahan]

Another consideration to keep the topic here is that within the "general topics" it sinks quickly to the 2nd, 3rd etc page and will be forgotten quickly. Maybe it is a bit of topic here but considering the alternative it's the best here anyway.

[sabaijai]

Not at all convinced myself. Could be that it's relevant to one school and not others so have at it. Please show relevance to Buddhism while discussing your powers .

[rychrde]

Hi

haven't been on for a while, and don't recall seeing the lucid dream article.

However, agree entirely with thaicurious. This is a Buddhism forum and although Thailand is predominently Theravadan I hope we can continue discussing other Buddhist traditions on here, especially when there are many important practices that thai monks haven't a clue about.

Tenzin Wangyal's book is a gem. I had the privilege of being taught by him for a while, though sadly for Europeans he decided to settle down in US.

rych

[sabaijai]

Still waiting to hear the relevance of lucid dreaming to Buddhism ... of any school. Is it the self that is dreaming? Perhaps lucidity needs to be defined. If by lucid one means awareness of the dhammas, it's difficult to see how so-called lucid dreaming as described here thus fars actually promotes such awareness. The lucid dreaming described here sounds very much like (unaware) waking state.

If you're talking about bardo you're talking after death. Is there a connection between the ordinary living dream state and the bardos?

[sleepyjohn]

The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness towards enlightenment can not be achieved through the lucid dream state as far as I know.

I'm not at all sure that high concentration is conducive to enlightenment.

I'm gonna look up someone who I remember quoting him quite some time ago and I'm sure it's in capitals. He's got pretty good credentials.

Here it is:

"DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTISE" p74 Handbook for Mankind, Buddhadhassa Bhikkhu.

I always remember being advised that if meditating (a poorly used word BTW) one should be ready to catch a ball at any moment.

The reason I stick my oar in is because I think it's worthwhile questioning this attitude of how "high" one has to be, how "advanced". "IT"'s always called marvellous things like "the sublime state". But isn't one there all the time? Isn't it just a matter of pulling aside the gossamer to see it? Isn't it just an understanding? The terms commonly used always suggest some terribly difficult advance. But isn't it in fact a reversal?

(ps it is also well known that insight under the dhyanas may well be invalid. It can in fact be ridiculous.)

Edited September 11, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[chownah]

I always remember being advised that if meditating (a poorly used word BTW) one should be ready to catch a ball at any moment.

Someone may have advised you this way but I really think that this is not true of all types of meditation across the board....for instance....some of the supermundane jhana states are described something like beyond space or such....hard to catch a ball when you are beyond space don't you think?

Chownah

[sleepyjohn]

.

Edited September 12, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[sleepyjohn]

I always remember being advised that if meditating (a poorly used word BTW) one should be ready to catch a ball at any moment.

Someone may have advised you this way but I really think that this is not true of all types of meditation across the board....for instance....some of the supermundane jhana states are described something like beyond space or such....hard to catch a ball when you are beyond space don't you think?

Chownah

Ha ha take your point but I hope you take mine.

IMO whatever states one goes into should stay relevant on a moment to moment everyday basis to improving our lives. The brain tends not to stay in dhyana states, therefore IMO change/develop in your everyday state. Perhaps that everyday state may then change in a sustainable way.

I think this is what BB is getting at.

(For the record I consider space an illusion such as time is. Merely a framework synthesised by the brain to help maintain functions useful to it and it's procreation, and specially formulated (because it's also useful) to seem real as is it does with other things......like self!)

Edited September 12, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[rychrde]

Still waiting to hear the relevance of lucid dreaming to Buddhism ... of any school. Is it the self that is dreaming? Perhaps lucidity needs to be defined. If by lucid one means awareness of the dhammas, it's difficult to see how so-called lucid dreaming as described here thus fars actually promotes such awareness. The lucid dreaming described here sounds very much like (unaware) waking state.

If you're talking about bardo you're talking after death. Is there a connection between the ordinary living dream state and the bardos?

Yes, the manifestations of the bardo are the same as that whilst falling asleep. I would hazard a guess that the whole tibetan bardo is based around the dream and sleep yogas, but we shall find out when the time comes! It is not so much the manifestations of the individual intermediate states but the lights and signs that precede each realm. The sleep yoga should teach one how to recognize those signs so that at the time of death one remains aware of what is happening and follows the path to buddhahood instead of yet another 'hel_l'.

If I can find my copy of Tenzin Wangyal's book I'll gladly copy a few quotes. The rest are in typed manuscripts from teachings.

rych

[Grover]

The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness towards enlightenment can not be achieved through the lucid dream state as far as I know.

I'm not at all sure that high concentration is conducive to enlightenment.

I'm gonna look up someone who I remember quoting him quite some time ago and I'm sure it's in capitals. He's got pretty good credentials.

Here it is:

"DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTISE" p74 Handbook for Mankind, Buddhadhassa Bhikkhu.

yes, I think he is referring to the specific practice of insight meditation which is based on mindfulness, not concentration.

In the account of the Buddhas enlightenment, he needed very high concentration to reach the 4th Jana and from there to enlightenment.

I always remember being advised that if meditating (a poorly used word BTW) one should be ready to catch a ball at any moment.

The reason I stick my oar in is because I think it's worthwhile questioning this attitude of how "high" one has to be, how "advanced". "IT"'s always called marvellous things like "the sublime state". But isn't one there all the time? Isn't it just a matter of pulling aside the gossamer to see it? Isn't it just an understanding? The terms commonly used always suggest some terribly difficult advance. But isn't it in fact a reversal?

(ps it is also well known that insight under the dhyanas may well be invalid. It can in fact be ridiculous.)

[jamesc2000]

I thot meditation is about letting go!

So I don't understand "The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness."

Sounds like the opposite of letting go!

Anyway what is this enlightenment? Anyone has experienced this before?

And if you did? Did you put in a lot of hardwork to be enlightened or did you let go?

[sleepyjohn]

There's a very good Dao or Tao saying James:

Pursuit of knowledge, every day something added.

Pursuit of the Dao, every day something subtracted.

Edited September 12, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[Grover]

I thot meditation is about letting go!

So I don't understand "The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness."

Sounds like the opposite of letting go!

Anyway what is this enlightenment? Anyone has experienced this before?

And if you did? Did you put in a lot of hardwork to be enlightened or did you let go?

Have a read of the story of the Buddhas enlightenment, he was quite determined and focused on his goal. And, he did let go, as a monk when he gave up worldly things and finally when he "gave up his life" in a do or die meditation marathon.

I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another. And as far as I know, lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures.

[sleepyjohn]

“…to awaken suddenly to the fact that your own Mind is the Buddha, that there is nothing to be attained or a single action to be performed---this is the Supreme Way.”

........HuangPo

[jamesc2000]

I thot meditation is about letting go!

So I don't understand "The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness."

Sounds like the opposite of letting go!

Anyway what is this enlightenment? Anyone has experienced this before?

And if you did? Did you put in a lot of hardwork to be enlightened or did you let go?

Have a read of the story of the Buddhas enlightenment, he was quite determined and focused on his goal. And, he did let go, as a monk when he gave up worldly things and finally when he "gave up his life" in a do or die meditation marathon.

I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another. And as far as I know, lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures.

Before Buddha was enlightened he was determined and focused but after he was enlightened how determined and focus was he?

Does that mean the unenlightened are determined and focused and the enlightened are carefree and happy?

"I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another."

I am not sure what your definition of lucid dreamers are but you seem to equate lucid dreamers with sensual delights.

"lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures." I am not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures - as far as I know - but does that mean I do not exist?

Giving up worldly things is great, but so is giving up dogma and rigid thinking!

Off course I could be wrong!

Lastly, isn't life just a dream?

PS what is wrong with sensual delights? I love chocolate ice cream with whip cream and chopped nuts, do I have to give that up?

[Grover]

I thot meditation is about letting go!

So I don't understand "The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness."

Sounds like the opposite of letting go!

Anyway what is this enlightenment? Anyone has experienced this before?

And if you did? Did you put in a lot of hardwork to be enlightened or did you let go?

Have a read of the story of the Buddhas enlightenment, he was quite determined and focused on his goal. And, he did let go, as a monk when he gave up worldly things and finally when he "gave up his life" in a do or die meditation marathon.

I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another. And as far as I know, lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures.

Before Buddha was enlightened he was determined and focused but after he was enlightened how determined and focus was he?

Does that mean the unenlightened are determined and focused and the enlightened are carefree and happy?

"I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another."

I am not sure what your definition of lucid dreamers are but you seem to equate lucid dreamers with sensual delights.

"lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures." I am not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures - as far as I know - but does that mean I do not exist?

Giving up worldly things is great, but so is giving up dogma and rigid thinking!

Off course I could be wrong!

Lastly, isn't life just a dream?

PS what is wrong with sensual delights? I love chocolate ice cream with whip cream and chopped nuts, do I have to give that up?

excellent questions but I think it will be better if you try and answer them for yourself

[jamesc2000]

I thot meditation is about letting go!

So I don't understand "The very high levels of concentration and mindfulness needed to break through to the higher levels of consciousness."

Sounds like the opposite of letting go!

Anyway what is this enlightenment? Anyone has experienced this before?

And if you did? Did you put in a lot of hardwork to be enlightened or did you let go?

Have a read of the story of the Buddhas enlightenment, he was quite determined and focused on his goal. And, he did let go, as a monk when he gave up worldly things and finally when he "gave up his life" in a do or die meditation marathon.

I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another. And as far as I know, lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures.

Before Buddha was enlightened he was determined and focused but after he was enlightened how determined and focus was he?

Does that mean the unenlightened are determined and focused and the enlightened are carefree and happy?

"I have never heard any account of any profound spiritual insights/awakening from lucid dreamers, they just seem to engage in sensual delights of one kind or another."

I am not sure what your definition of lucid dreamers are but you seem to equate lucid dreamers with sensual delights.

"lucid dreaming is not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures." I am not mentioned in the Pali Buddhist scriptures - as far as I know - but does that mean I do not exist?

Giving up worldly things is great, but so is giving up dogma and rigid thinking!

Off course I could be wrong!

Lastly, isn't life just a dream?

PS what is wrong with sensual delights? I love chocolate ice cream with whip cream and chopped nuts, do I have to give that up?

excellent questions but I think it will be better if you try and answer them for yourself

Ok if I have to answer them myself then I guess my answer to myself would have to be

Absolutely nothing!

Edited September 14, 2007 by jamesc2000

[thaicurious]

apologies for delay in response. have been on roadtrip and away from puter.

Still waiting to hear the relevance of lucid dreaming to Buddhism ... of any school.

as i've already quoted a number of sources highly regarded by many, i'm not sure just what might be required for your particular listening pleasure.

Is it the self that is dreaming? Perhaps lucidity needs to be defined.

who else but the self? in a lucid dream, consciousness awakens--while the body sleeps--to view and participate in the mind's dreaming. you exercise free will just like when your body is awake. instead of viewing your dream as a movie, you act in it like a play. knowing it is a dream while you dream, you make decisions, pick stuff up, walk through doors and walls, read books, talk to dream characters, fly. in a lucid dream you can even see your face in a mirror, just like you do in "real" life. all sentient beings can do this.

you might even have had lucid dreams as a child but they scared you so you pushed them away. perhaps society did not explain them to you. they may call to you still with dreams of flying or falling. you may get vibrations or shocks to your body as you rest. you may dream that you are out of your body. you might have a sensation of falling that wakes your body with a jerk. folklore tells you that if you fall in a dream and hit bottom that you will die. but a shaman says: 'let yourself fall and a net will appear."

lucid dreaming then refers to the state of being in which the body sleeps but the mind is just as conscious and self-aware as it is when the body is awake. from lucid dreaming, numerous other avenues open for you which are at least for now beyond the scope of this response.

If by lucid one means awareness of the dhammas, it's difficult to see how so-called lucid dreaming as described here thus fars actually promotes such awareness. The lucid dreaming described here sounds very much like (unaware) waking state.

lucidity here refers to a level of fuctioning. just like when the body is awake, a person is said to be lucid when able to perform productively. when a person is neither psychotic or too neurotic (or drunk or drugged), they are lucid. similarly, when a person is lucid in a dream, that person is able to be productive within that dream. they function pretty much just as they do when their body is awake, well, often without the usual physical constraints.

but just as you can sleep through a dream, being awake in your dream does not imply that you are any more aware than someone who might be sleepwalking through waking life. we do not meditate in our sleep, can we? for you can not meditate until you wake up. this holds just as true for when your body is awake as when your body is asleep. so this is where concepts and practices taught and studied in buddhism come in particularly handy. while lucid dreaming can easily be taken as a distraction from awareness, it can also promote awareness in numerous ways. it can free a person from the bondage of a ruined body, it can allow a person to think without pain, you can develop states of divided attention spans, it offers opportunity to study illusion, among just a minor few of these which are more often unavailable when the body is awake.

If you're talking about bardo you're talking after death. Is there a connection between the ordinary living dream state and the bardos?

if i understand correctly the term bardo, it refers to the betweens. and so here death is the bardo of life and life just as life is the bardo of death and death and sleeping is the bardo of awake and awake as awake is the bardo of sleep and sleep. and so yes, there very much is a connection between the ordinary living dream state and between lucid dreaming and between all the bardos. they are all between; they are all one.

Edited September 19, 2007 by thaicurious

[thaicurious]

I always remember being advised that if meditating...one should be ready to catch a ball at any moment.

well said. i like that very much.

[thaicurious]

I would hazard a guess that the whole tibetan bardo is based around the dream and sleep yogas

i suspect your suspicion correct. tibetan buddhists have been studying dreaming in systematic ways for over 1000 years. in the west--at least up until recent scientific minds like those of charles t. tart and stephen laberge et al began to bring some measure of respectibility to the study--lucid dreamers were considered little more than kooks; but for tibetans, lucid dreamers are like astronauts, exploring what is more likely truly the so-called final frontier.

The sleep yoga should teach one how to recognize those signs so that at the time of death one remains aware of what is happening and follows the path to buddhahood instead of yet another 'hel_l'.

bingo

[rychrde]

I would hazard a guess that the whole tibetan bardo is based around the dream and sleep yogas

i suspect your suspicion correct. tibetan buddhists have been studying dreaming in systematic ways for over 1000 years. in the west--at least up until recent scientific minds like those of charles t. tart and stephen laberge et al began to bring some measure of respectibility to the study--lucid dreamers were considered little more than kooks; but for tibetans, lucid dreamers are like astronauts, exploring what is more likely truly the so-called final frontier.

The sleep yoga should teach one how to recognize those signs so that at the time of death one remains aware of what is happening and follows the path to buddhahood instead of yet another 'hel_l'.

bingo

thanks!

I can't be bothered to type the quotes so here is one from Lingmincha website:

"It is said that the practice of dream yoga deepens our awareness during all our experiences: the dreams of the night; the dream-like experience of the day; and the bardo experiences of death. The practices of dream and sleep are powerful tools of awakening, used for hundreds of years by the great masters of the Tibetan traditions. Unlike the Western psychological approach to dreams where the content of the dream is interpreted for meaning, the ultimate goal of Tibetan dream and sleep yogas is the recognition of the nature of mind itself, or enlightenment."

One thing I find interesting in these (two) discussions is what seems to be a really striking difference between the Theravadan/Hinayana tradition and Dzogchen, indeed even with the Mahayana tradition. I guess I knew this already but had never seen it manifested. Historically these traditions have had long debates about their respective positions, in my view positive confrontations as these esoteric states need strong definitions to maintain clarity. My posts were to help the OP, who seemed to be searching for something meaningful to do with his innate lucid dreaming abilities - hope it helped.

rych

[sabaijai]

lucidity here refers to a level of fuctioning. just like when the body is awake, a person is said to be lucid when able to perform productively. when a person is neither psychotic or too neurotic (or drunk or drugged), they are lucid. similarly, when a person is lucid in a dream, that person is able to be productive within that dream. they function pretty much just as they do when their body is awake, well, often without the usual physical constraints.

If lucidity is merely performing productively, then lucid dreaming is the same as lucid waking state, i.e., it still lacks Buddhist insight into impermanence, suffering and non-self.

who else but the self? in a lucid dream, consciousness awakens--while the body sleeps--to view and participate in the mind's dreaming. you exercise free will just like when your body is awake. i

Whether awake or asleep, what is normally called 'self' has rather different connotations from a Buddhist perspective, depending on your source tradition of course. But there is no generally agreed-upon 'self' as far as I know One aim of Buddhism is to question what you are calling lucidity, as our everyday perceptions/lucidity are not necessarily co-occurring with sati or knowledge of the dhammas.

as i've already quoted a number of sources highly regarded by many, i'm not sure just what might be required for your particular listening pleasure.

I was hoping for quotes with specific stated relevance to Buddhism, not merely quotes about lucid dreaming from famous Buddhists.

[thaicurious]

If lucidity is merely performing productively, then lucid dreaming is the same as lucid waking state, i.e., it still lacks Buddhist insight into impermanence, suffering and non-self.

when was the last time you rubbed together two sticks to create a fire, felt the heat on your body, added dried wood, let the fire burn high, stepped into the fire and stood there with the flames lapping your face yet you did not burn and then walked out of the fire unharmed. perhaps in dreams there is some insight to be found into impermanence, suffering and non-self afterall.

Whether awake or asleep, what is normally called 'self' has rather different connotations from a Buddhist perspective, depending on your source tradition of course. But there is no generally agreed-upon 'self' as far as I know One aim of Buddhism is to question what you are calling lucidity, as our everyday perceptions/lucidity are not necessarily co-occurring with sati or knowledge of the dhammas.

not sure of what point you are trying to make which might counter something i might have said. but do let us know when you have managed to find no self without using your self to find (or, rather, to not find) that. one of the wonderful experiences taken from lucid dreaming is--just as i believe you are trying to state--the questioning of reality and coming to grips with the illusory nature of mind. it's just so much easier to walk into a fire when the fire isn't quite so real.

I was hoping for quotes with specific stated relevance to Buddhism, not merely quotes about lucid dreaming from famous Buddhists.

sorry but to my ear that is just silly at best and at worst disrespectful to those more mindful than us. while there seems to be an awakening in progress, it simply has not been the tradition of buddhism nor of most other institutionalized ways of thinking to advertise their utmost esoteric aspects: whether the rosecrusian order of christianity, or jewish kabbalah, or buddhist dzogchen.

consider this: if i were to spell out for you the meaning of a poem, you would no longer have a poem, rather you would have prose.

perhaps if you read into the poetry of buddhism you would find references to dream yoga all on your own.

[chownah]

Does anyone have any references to what the Buddha said about dreaming?

[Grover]

From the Index at access to insight just three links to dreaming, none to lucid dreaming

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, five great dreams appeared to him. Which five?

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this great earth was his great bed. The Himalayas, king of mountains, was his pillow. His left hand rested in the eastern sea, his right hand in the western sea, and both feet in the southern sea. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the first great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, a woody vine growing out of his navel stood reaching to the sky. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the second great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, white worms with black heads crawling up from his feet covered him as far as his knees. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the third great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, four different-colored birds coming from the four directions fell at his feet and turned entirely white. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the fourth great dream that appeared to him.

"Furthermore, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, he walked back & forth on top of a giant mountain of excrement but was not soiled by the excrement. When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, this was the fifth great dream that appeared to him.

"Now, when the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and this great earth was his great bed, the Himalayas, king of mountains, was his pillow, his left hand rested in the eastern sea, his right hand in the western sea, and both feet in the southern sea: this first great dream appeared to let him know that he would awaken to the unexcelled right self-awakening.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and a woody vine growing out of his navel stood reaching to the sky: this second great dream appeared to let him know that when he had awakened to the noble eightfold path, he would proclaim it well as far as there are human & celestial beings.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and white worms with black heads crawling up from his feet covered him as far as his knees: this third great dream appeared to let him know that many white-clothed householders would go for life-long refuge to the Tathagata.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and four different-colored birds coming from the four directions fell at his feet and turned entirely white: this fourth great dream appeared to let him know that people from the four castes — priests, noble-warriors, merchants, and laborers — having gone forth from the home life into homelessness in the Dhamma & Vinaya taught by the Tathagata, would realize unexcelled release.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, and he walked back & forth on top of a giant mountain of excrement but was not soiled by the excrement: this fifth great dream appeared to let him know that the Tathagata would receive gifts of robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites to cure the sick, but he would use them unattached to them, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks [of attachment to them], and discerning the escape from them.

"When the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, these five great dreams appeared to him."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...an.html#dreams5

dream interpretation is a form of wrong livelihood (for monks) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn...html#livelihood

Nothing about Lucid Dreaming

Edited September 20, 2007 by Grover

[thaicurious]

as to finding links for what the buddha might ever have said about dreaming, i believe you will find that most such writings of anything of that sort are more often interpretations & reiterations and commentary and even comments on commentary than they might be actual, original quotes.

From the Index at access to insight just three links to dreaming, none to lucid dreaming

as "lucid dreaming" is a western term, searching for that in eastern texts might not prove positive results. however, according to the all-knowing wikipedia, "as early as the eighth century, tibetan buddhists were practicing a form of yoga supposed to maintain full waking consciousness while in the dream state." and so this is nothing new to buddhism.

even from your own citation of www.accesstoinsight.org, you will find numerous references to dreaming.

The mind tends to play tricks within these levels of tranquillity. "Imagery" will sometimes arise when the mind is in this state, through any of the senses, and the meditator may not be able to tell exactly what is happening. "Am I sleeping? No. Is it a dream? No, it's not a dream..." These impressions arise from a middling sort of tranquillity; but if the mind is truly calm and clear we don't doubt the various mental impressions or imagery which arise. Questions like, "Did I drift off then? Was I sleeping? did I get lost?..." don't arise, for they are characteristics of a mind which is still doubting. "Am I asleep or awake?"... Here, it's fuzzy! This is the mind getting lost in its moods. It's like the moon going behind a cloud. You can still see the moon but the clouds covering it render it hazy. It's not like the moon which has emerged from behind the clouds — clear, sharp and bright.

When the mind is peaceful and established firmly in mindfulness and self-awareness, there will be no doubt concerning the various phenomena which we encounter. The mind will truly be beyond the hindrances. We will clearly know as it is everything which arises in the mind. We do not doubt it because the mind is clear and bright. The mind which reaches samadhi is like this.

"am i asleep or awake?" how interesting to be able to answer that question whether you are asleep or awake.

The Pali term for living plant — bhutagama — literally means the home of a being. This the Sub-commentary explains by saying that devatas may take up residence in plants standing in place by means of a longing on which their consciousness fastens (at the end of their previous lives) as in a dream.

would your authoritative text so often reference dreaming yet object to exploring dreaming? how do you seek to calm your mind when you are adverse to knowing it?

oh, and i love this one on sexual misconduct:

Intentionally causing oneself to emit semen, or getting someone else to cause one to emit semen — except during a dream — is a saṅghādisesa offense.

so apparently if yer gonna enjoy sex without being offensive you better learn lucid dreaming.

[Grover]

as to finding links for what the buddha might ever have said about dreaming, i believe you will find that most such writings of anything of that sort are more often interpretations & reiterations and commentary and even comments on commentary than they might be actual, original quotes.

I'd have to agree with you there, but the same can be said about this form of dream yoga you speak of, that is it never came from the Buddha himself but was an addon - with arguable relevance to the actual Buddhas teachings.

From the Index at access to insight just three links to dreaming, none to lucid dreaming

as "lucid dreaming" is a western term, searching for that in eastern texts might not prove positive results. however, according to the all-knowing wikipedia, "as early as the eighth century, tibetan buddhists were practicing a form of yoga supposed to maintain full waking consciousness while in the dream state." and so this is nothing new to buddhism.

Well, Tibetian monks may have diligently been involved in basket weaving in the early 8th century, but that does not automatically make basket weaving a practice of Buddhism.

oh, and i love this one on sexual misconduct:

Intentionally causing oneself to emit semen, or getting someone else to cause one to emit semen — except during a dream — is a saṅghādisesa offense.

so apparently if yer gonna enjoy sex without being offensive you better learn lucid dreaming.

Thats just it, lucid dreaming is too much fun. Monks would be sleeping all day, getting their rocks off in lucid dream adventures, probably not learning a great deal from it all enlightenment would probably take a back seat.

Im a big fan of castaneda and the toltec teachings which you referred to in one of your earlier posts, I think its a valid path to the top but quite different to the straight and direct, and middle path of Buddhism.