Lucid Dreaming: Dzogchen & Dream Yoga

[Grover]

^ I believe ive misread the first paragraph of your post response, so pls ignore it.

[thaicurious]

Well, Tibetian monks may have diligently been involved in basket weaving in the early 8th century, but that does not automatically make basket weaving a practice of Buddhism....Im a big fan of castaneda and the toltec teachings which you referred to in one of your earlier posts, I think its a valid path to the top but quite different to the straight and direct, and middle path of Buddhism.

i appreciate much how castaneda related information from native american culture to western society, though, on the whole, he suffered a bit too much paranoia for me.

having studied some both the buddhist use of lucid dreaming known as dream yoga and that of the toltec which castaneda called sorcery, i found similarities in the two but also what seems to me basically different approaches and outlooks.

first to say that there is an experience known as an obe or out of body experience which some think separate from lucid dreaming while others consider it the same or at least on the same continuum of experience. enough said about that.

in toltec thinking, the purpose of an obe is to, as they say, directly handle and manipulate energy which is used to solidify the experience of dreaming. for them, dreaming is not only as real as waking life, but, perhaps, in ways, more real. or perhaps better said, that all this is a dream and so life is just a matter of choosing your dream, entering and stalking it.

in buddhist dream yoga, however, it is through the practices of lucid dreaming which allow for the experiences of obe's. here, the dream, which ever dream you choose, is not real. and so one of the goals, rather than creating a world in which to live, is to find yourself without a world, without a dream, without your physical body, without your dream body. where you exist only as consciousness in a naked world and then beyond.

in the meanwhile, 1200 years seems a reasonable amount of time for any practice to be well incorporated into any insitutionalized way of thinking. i don't know who i would be to argue with that. i suppose if 8th century buddhists found basket weaving inextricable from or at least highly helpful towards a path to nirvana, that today we might consider weaving baskets to be authentic buddhist practice.

[Suthep_Steve]

I don't know about Dzogchen but the yoga of sleep is a Vajrayana practise as well.

Probably the most famous practioshoner of it was Shantideva who is widely regarded as one of the foremost Mahayanaists.

If you want scriptural references then you will need to read the Root Tantra of Heruka or its comentraries.

To give a brief summary of the practise Vajrayanists recognise three levels of mind gross, subtle and very subtle. When you sleep if you are lucid and so inclined you can use your subtle level of mind to meditate. Thus using the period of sleep to not only meditate but do so with a less gross mind than that which is present during the waking state. Many yogis find this practise very beneificial and sleep alot performing their meditation during their sleep.

This being a Vajrayana practise you really need the guidance of a Vajra Master to practise in this way. If you are interested good luck in finding one.

[thaicurious]

I don't know about Dzogchen but the yoga of sleep is a Vajrayana practise as well.

Probably the most famous practioshoner of it was Shantideva who is widely regarded as one of the foremost Mahayanaists.

If you want scriptural references then you will need to read the Root Tantra of Heruka or its comentraries.

To give a brief summary of the practise Vajrayanists recognise three levels of mind gross, subtle and very subtle. When you sleep if you are lucid and so inclined you can use your subtle level of mind to meditate. Thus using the period of sleep to not only meditate but do so with a less gross mind than that which is present during the waking state. Many yogis find this practise very beneificial and sleep alot performing their meditation during their sleep.

This being a Vajrayana practise you really need the guidance of a Vajra Master to practise in this way. If you are interested good luck in finding one.

thanx for the great input. i like shantideva very much and repeating a quote helped me through some hard times: that "if suffering can be corrected, then there's no need to be despondent; and if it can not be remedied, than there is no benefit even if one becomes unhappy." so practical yet so hard to practice.

from what little i've read it seems vajrayana, mahayana and dzogchen are somewhat related at least in that they all tend towards the esoteric. i've been concentrating on dzogchen but certainly i need to learn more of the other two schools of buddhist thought. also i need to learn better how to meditate in a waking state so that i can incorporate all that into my dreaming. i rarely purposely meditate while my body is awake though i try to be mindful in my tasks.

you offer a good explanation of the benefit of meditating while the body sleeps. i'm not sure i buy, for everyone, the need for guidance by a so-called master though. while i'm not out to reinvent the wheel nor into putting time unnecessarily into that, i do learn much from my own mistakes and i prefer trying to figure something out myself and later confirming if i've got it right. for me it is a better way of knowing. i would rather be fooled by my own mistakes than by preconceived ideas of what an experience should or might be. the prior might temporarily lead me on a wrong path but the latter might just convince me that i have gotten further along the path than i really have.

i'm a bit of a contrarian so for me the way forward is to walk backwards and so to see just what sort of mess i've gotten myself into this time. it might not be all that efficient, but it's usually at least pretty amusing.

[Idgy]

as to finding links for what the buddha might ever have said about dreaming, i believe you will find that most such writings of anything of that sort are more often interpretations & reiterations and commentary and even comments on commentary than they might be actual, original quotes.

I'd have to agree with you there, but the same can be said about this form of dream yoga you speak of, that is it never came from the Buddha himself but was an addon - with arguable relevance to the actual Buddhas teachings.

From the Index at access to insight just three links to dreaming, none to lucid dreaming

as "lucid dreaming" is a western term, searching for that in eastern texts might not prove positive results. however, according to the all-knowing wikipedia, "as early as the eighth century, tibetan buddhists were practicing a form of yoga supposed to maintain full waking consciousness while in the dream state." and so this is nothing new to buddhism.

Well, Tibetian monks may have diligently been involved in basket weaving in the early 8th century, but that does not automatically make basket weaving a practice of Buddhism.

oh, and i love this one on sexual misconduct:

Intentionally causing oneself to emit semen, or getting someone else to cause one to emit semen — except during a dream — is a saṅghādisesa offense.

so apparently if yer gonna enjoy sex without being offensive you better learn lucid dreaming.

Thats just it, lucid dreaming is too much fun. Monks would be sleeping all day, getting their rocks off in lucid dream adventures, probably not learning a great deal from it all enlightenment would probably take a back seat.

Im a big fan of castaneda and the toltec teachings which you referred to in one of your earlier posts, I think its a valid path to the top but quite different to the straight and direct, and middle path of Buddhism.

Wow. For someone who has probably never had a lucid dream, you really seem to be an expert and have a lot to say on the matter.

Has it actually crossed your mind that you may be able to meditate within your dream state? Once lucid in your sleep, it is possible to bring your lightbody or dream body into the lotus position and meditate. If you think how your thoughts move when you are awake, imagine how it is to meditate where your mind is much sharper, and moves more quickly. From here (if you can handle the energy that this position generates without waking up), you can experience kundalini activation in your dream state. Again, it is hard to stay in such a state with such immense energy rushing upwards around you. Not only do you have to be lucid in your dream to begin with, you have to somehow remember to get into Lotus and meditate, and then stay in that state. Not easy really.

Do not underestimate the power of overcoming fears and becoming lucid in your sleep. If you really think this has nothing to do with Buddhism, you are quite mistaken. The practice of being lucid in your sleep and meditating within that state could possibly be one of the most beneficial practices you could do to prepare yourself for the bardo of death.

Imagine the Buddha meditating without being distracted by what his mind threw at him? Now imagine that you meditate in your lucid dream without being distracted with what your mind throws at you within your dream (can you imagine what nightmares you may have to face?). These could be the biggest fears within your mind that you must overcome. No distraction and no fear. Just breathe and meditate. Recognise it all as an illusion. See what I am getting at?

Now tell me that lucid dreaming cannot be used as a spiritual practice.